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Thread: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

  1. #46
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Sarcasm aside, Christians can love people without participating in their sin Rabbi and you know that. Your post is disingenous, IMO.
    Yeah... lots of trolling.....

  2. #47
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by BLESSED1AmI View Post
    Please! Christian forums have members who question and imply other members are not his.
    Phillips example is what garners the opinion he's not of the faith. Did you watch the trial? I listened to the entire SCOTUS case. I've watched this case from the start. Therefore, no conjecture nor assumptions. Siding with the baker while not knowing the merits but doing so solely because Phillips claims to be Christian isn't a positive.


    And your race card accusation has no merit.

    Non-Sequitur.
    You don’t have a clue about what I know or what I don’t know. Just like you judge a Christian, you are assuming something about me.

    And of course its non-sequitor when the discrimination happens against someone who doesn’t comply with your agenda.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #48
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Or just continue honoring God in our work rather than just in church. You know, the Samaritan didn't help out with the robbery. I mean, they will know us by how sinful we can be, by selling abortifcants and participating in abominable actions like gay "weddings" and such.

    Sarcasm aside, Christians can love people without participating in their sin Rabbi and you know that. Your post is disingenous, IMO. Lots of people carry filthy "samaritans" to the hospital and pay for their care. And for "Jews" and "Christians", etc. etc. etc. without participating in the sins of those they love/care for.

    Regardless, the US government doesn't have the constitutional right to force believers to run their business against their mainstream religious values.
    I know RK's post had a bit of sarcasm but I think he was trying to present a posible solution. A church has certian protections a business doesn't. They could deny such cakes being made based on that protection.
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  4. #49
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    I know RK's post had a bit of sarcasm but I think he was trying to present a posible solution. A church has certian protections a business doesn't. They could deny such cakes being made based on that protection.
    For now .

  5. #50
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    I know RK's post had a bit of sarcasm but I think he was trying to present a posible solution. A church has certian protections a business doesn't. They could deny such cakes being made based on that protection.
    yea... his solution is the baker go out of business. Some solution. He also ignored the protections of the first amendment. He wasn't concerned about the baker. He was mocking the baker and those that support him.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  6. #51
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by EarlyCall View Post
    For now .
    I'm not trolling. For pity sake...

    I'm deadly serious. I'm asking us to think beyond our programmed indoctrination.

    I'm a strict originalist. I don't think the Feds have any dog in this hunt. I don't think states should have laws affecting intrastate commerce at all.

    The question, however, is twofold.

    One, how is baking a cake a religious expression. The first amendment argument is much stronger than the second amendment argument, which is quite weak.

    More importantly, how is the individual believer supposed to act in interaction with those we may deem the most vile? And on that note, how is their sodomy any different from our gluttony?

    Put all the constitutional issues aside. How do the actions of this baker or anyone else in a similar position impact an unbeliever toward a personal relationship with Jesus?

    gives me an idea for a different thread, one which I suspect will die for lack of interest!

  7. #52
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Baking a cake as a business isn't participation in anyone's sin, any more than flipping burger's at McDonald's for the groomsmen the morning of, is. (Mind you, we wouldn't compel an artist to accept a commission, so is cake baking an art, and would that sidestep an issue that is otherwise being shoehorned into a narrative it doesn't necessarily fit into?)
    Not true brother. It wasn't an off the shelf cake. If it was, I could understand your point of view. But they asked for a custom made cake for their "wedding". It's not a wedding. It will never be a wedding. It is impossible to make a "wedding" cake for a gay couple. However, it can be a cake to celebrate abomination. I would refuse to do it too. Now, if someone walks into a shop to buy a standard wedding cake, that's different. Wouldn't you agree? Then your example might stand.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #53
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Yeah... lots of trolling.....
    Yep. Sure looked like it to me.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  9. #54
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yep. Sure looked like it to me.
    Ok, paint me stupid. I don't want to get into trouble.

    Can someone explain to me what you think "trolling" is.

  10. #55
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    I'm not trolling. For pity sake...
    I don't believe you RK. Your words appeared to show otherwise to me and apparently to others in this thread.

    One, how is baking a cake a religious expression. The first amendment argument is much stronger than the second amendment argument, which is quite weak.
    "Whatsoever you do, do as unto the Lord". That pretty much means work, play, etc. is an expression of religion. To be forced to provide an abortificant to an employee or to create art for an abomination, yea, that goes far beyond an infringment upon religious expression over into something far more.

    More importantly, how is the individual believer supposed to act in interaction with those we may deem the most vile? And on that note, how is their sodomy any different from our gluttony?
    All sins are not the same. That's why the OT had different punishments for them. The worst sins are to have more light and ignore it.


    How do the actions of this baker or anyone else in a similar position impact an unbeliever toward a personal relationship with Jesus?
    Like this:

    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #56
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    More importantly, how is the individual believer supposed to act in interaction with those we may deem the most vile? And on that note, how is their sodomy any different from our gluttony?
    An excellent question. Although I think the baker has every right to deny a service that violates his religious beliefs the real essence of the issue is how do we treat others when their beliefs conflict with ours. Your analogy to the good Samaritan was a perfect example. Those that had the acceptable correct doctrine (at the time) walked on and left him to die. The heretic outcast Samaritan acted as a neighbor towards one who was his enemy. What is best in God's eye? Having the correct theology or having the proper action?

    Yet, we still have a dilemma, can we let the homosexual militant agenda dictate a violation to our conscience? On the other hand...do we justify our sin and condemn others for theirs?
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  12. #57
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    An excellent question. Although I think the baker has every right to deny a service that violates his religious beliefs the real essence of the issue is how do we treat others when their beliefs conflict with ours. Your analogy to the good Samaritan was a perfect example. Those that had the acceptable correct doctrine (at the time) walked on and left him to die. The heretic outcast Samaritan acted as a neighbor towards one who was his enemy. What is best in God's eye? Having the correct theology or having the proper action?
    It missed a major point. The Good Samaritan did not participate in the robbery. Nor did the Good Samaritan help the man go "down to Jericho" a stronghold that was to never be rebuilt. Instead, He was there to help after the sin, and the enemy had left the man for dead. Nothing in the story about helping the man commit sin.

    He also overlooked the fact that the priest and levite were themselves "going down to Jericho". Only the Good Samaritan was on the road looking for those who had been left for dead. Only He was prepared to help those left for dead. He was there for an entirely different reason than the Levite and the priest.

    IOW, this is an apples to oranges comparison. To say the Good Samaritan participated in the robbery would be false doctrine and false look at scripture. However, that is a better example of making a wedding cake with two men on top or desiging a cake specifically for something God has called an abomination or being forced to design a floral arrangement as a celebration of sinful things.

    To participate in celebrations for something that God calls an abomination is not like the Good Samaritan at all.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #58
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    It missed a major point. The Good Samaritan did not participate in the robbery. Nor did the Good Samaritan help the man go "down to Jericho" a stronghold that was to never be rebuilt. Instead, He was there to help after the sin, and the enemy had left the man for dead. Nothing in the story about helping the man commit sin. Nor is there anything in the story about the Good Samaritan participating in the robbery.
    Jesus went to a wedding where the clear implication is that people were drunk.
    He ate with Roman agents and known porstitutes.
    Do you believe that he was participating in their sin by his attendance at their dinners?

    Can a Christian write a wedding song.... clearly artistic expression.... let's even make it a worship song....

    Is he participating in homosexual sin if it is played at a gay wedding?

    Isn't this just like Paul's discussion of meat offered to idols?

  14. #59
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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    Jesus went to a wedding where the clear implication is that people were drunk.
    People sin all the time. The wedding itself was not an abomination. Talk to me when Jesus shows up at a celebration of sin or abominations.

    He ate with Roman agents and known porstitutes.
    Sure. So do we. Right?

    Do you believe that he was participating in their sin by his attendance at their dinners?
    Are dinners a celebration of abomination or sin? No. They are something we all do.

    Can a Christian write a wedding song.... clearly artistic expression.... let's even make it a worship song....

    Is he participating in homosexual sin if it is played at a gay wedding?
    What? Can water be dry? If you are asking if someone takes a worship song and plays it at a gay ceremony celebrating an abomination, then that is not a sin for the composer of the song. God created meat. People still offer meat to idols.

    But if he wrote the song to celebrate an abomination, well, that would be worshiping someone beside the One who called it an abomination.

    Why not write worship songs for orgies RK?

    Isn't this just like Paul's discussion of meat offered to idols?
    No. Not even close. That would be like "can I use flowers that were used in a gay ceremony". Of course I can. That is much different than saying "let me design the floral arrangement for your celebration of sin" or "let me design a cake specifically for your celebration of sin".

    There's a big difference in eating meat offered to idols and participating in the offering of that meat to idols.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Christian baker vindicated by Supreme Court is back in court

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    It missed a major point. The Good Samaritan did not participate in the robbery. Nor did the Good Samaritan help the man go "down to Jericho" a stronghold that was to never be rebuilt. Instead, He was there to help after the sin, and the enemy had left the man for dead. Nothing in the story about helping the man commit sin. Nor is there anything in the story about the Good Samaritan participating in the robbery.

    He also overlooked the fact that the priest and levite were themselves "going down to Jericho". Only the Good Samaritan was on the road looking for those who had been left for dead. Only He was prepared to help those left for dead. He was there for an entirely different reason than the Levite and the priest.

    IOW, this is an apples to oranges comparison. To say the Good Samaritan participated in the robbery would be false doctrine and false look at scripture. However, that is a better example of making a wedding cake with two men on top or desiging a cake specifically for something God has called an abomination or being forced to design a floral arrangement as a celebration of sinful things.

    To participate in celebrations for something that God calls an abomination is not like the Good Samaritan at all.
    I wasn't dealing with the issue of the cake. I actually agree with you on that. I am against a LBGT militant agenda that would force a business man to do something that violates his conscience. Perhaps one day it will try to successfully force ministers to actually marry them.Something we cannot allow.

    I was trying to probe into a deeper area where often we as Christians will throw stones at others and ignore our own sin. I think it's the real reason we have this battle in the first place. We yielded to the the state and gave them the schools and the media which was used to indoctrinate our society. We were too busy building our own lives and careers and ignored the battle for the hearts and minds of our youth. Our little pet sins caused us to drift further and further from a true walk in the Spirit and we are losing the battle for the very reason this land was first settled. Freedom of religion.

    I sometimes think that the abominations we see fill us with such anger and hatred that we strike out without really thinking. It is at this place I see room for improvement with God given wisdom.
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

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