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Thread: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

  1. #76
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Sure growing throughout the world
    If it is growing then this means it has NOT YET grown everywhere.

    The point is that it is everywhere are you saying that the saints preached to animals and insects?
    No, because this is NOT about preaching - read Psalm 19 and tell me where some person is preaching.

    Yes and they heard it and took it back to were they came from
    Did they? Do you have scriptural support for that assertion? Any traditions?
    Further, those nations were NOT the all nations, but simply all the nations which the Jews lived in.

    Yes it is Jesus used the same words as Paul "the whole world"
    Missed the point I made.

    I didn't claim that Jesus ascend in 70AD
    You tied it into 70 AD AND you said that it was linked to His ascension.

    Again to clarify I am not saying that every nation in the entire world head the gospel in the first century what I am saying is that the whole world that Paul & Luke mentioned is he the same whole world Jesus meant in Matthew 24.
    And my point was that this is a false claim as I demonstrated against each verse you provided.

    We disagree here but thats okay
    Boy we could go back and forth for a while LOL but thats okay this is fun and we agree on the essential doctrine
    Our disagreement does mean that other things will necessarily also be disagreed over.

  2. #77

    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    It seems to me that there is a consistent theme in the NT of people applying their own understanding to spiritual teachings. Just my .02, but I think we still struggle with "Lady at the well Syndrome" today. I could obviously be wrong, but I think the weight of scriptural evidence for a first century fulfillment is overwhelming. What else could Peter have meant when he said "This is that spoken by the prophet Joel? Why was Daniel told to seal up the vision, but John told not to seal for the time is at hand. There are countless other texts that need to be contorted to varying degrees in order to avoid the unavoidable. As I've said I'm pretty new to Bible study myself, but reading through the various end-times threads I am often shocked at the interpretations that I see... 30+ pages on what true Israel is??

    I'm going to keep reading posts and try to test my understanding, because I think it's fun and I'm glad I've found such an active board. That said, I think I'll just be a lurker from this point forward. My actual Bible reading has declined since I've started visiting, so I think I need to limit myself, but I do enjoy your debates. I love the diverse characters here and if I am wrong about my conclusions I hope to be turned to the truth and vice versa.

    It turns out there is good debate on tap this weekend in my neck of the woods, hopefully I can keep an open mind throughout and let the truth find me!

    Peace and Happy Trails to all!

  3. #78
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimatoree66 View Post
    It seems to me that there is a consistent theme in the NT of people applying their own understanding to spiritual teachings. Just my .02, but I think we still struggle with "Lady at the well Syndrome" today. I could obviously be wrong, but I think the weight of scriptural evidence for a first century fulfillment is overwhelming. What else could Peter have meant when he said "This is that spoken by the prophet Joel? Why was Daniel told to seal up the vision, but John told not to seal for the time is at hand. There are countless other texts that need to be contorted to varying degrees in order to avoid the unavoidable. As I've said I'm pretty new to Bible study myself, but reading through the various end-times threads I am often shocked at the interpretations that I see... 30+ pages on what true Israel is??

    I'm going to keep reading posts and try to test my understanding, because I think it's fun and I'm glad I've found such an active board. That said, I think I'll just be a lurker from this point forward. My actual Bible reading has declined since I've started visiting, so I think I need to limit myself, but I do enjoy your debates. I love the diverse characters here and if I am wrong about my conclusions I hope to be turned to the truth and vice versa.

    It turns out there is good debate on tap this weekend in my neck of the woods, hopefully I can keep an open mind throughout and let the truth find me!

    Peace and Happy Trails to all!
    We do have to beware simply taking things a certain way - yet what you are suggesting is also exactly that.
    There is no scriptural evidence for 1st century fulfillment.
    Further scripture is borne out in reality.
    Jesus was a real person who really lived and really fulfilled scripture, so along with "our" interpretation of exactly what soon means etc, we should find evidence of this happening. Without it you are bending what is stated to fit a preconceived ideal - a true Lady at the Well.

    Do we correctly understand what is meant by seal up for Daniel? Some think this means it was hidden from understanding - yet the truth is then it becomes meaningless.
    To seal up means it has no further revelation to be added by Daniel.

    Peter quoted part of Joel which was indeed fulfilled, but does that mean ALL of Joel was fulfilled at that time?

    There is GOOD reason why people reject a simplistic reliance on a single word in a phrase. I don't find myself contorting anything, but I do have to consider what is being meant within each context. I hope you find what people state and their reasoning enlightening, as well as showing you what ideas are also wrong.

  4. #79
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    Did they? Do you have scriptural support for that assertion? Any traditions?
    Further, those nations were NOT the all nations, but simply all the nations which the Jews lived in.
    Of course it was the nations only that they came from but of course they took the message back to their towns. Why else would God of brought them there as it isn't a coincidence that they were there for the day of Pentecost sermon that peter made as 3000 Jews converted that day? Not every event is mentioned in the bible.

    You tied it into 70 AD AND you said that it was linked to His ascension.
    What I was saying is that the end of the age I believe to be the temple and sacrificial age which ended in 70AD with the destruction of the temple and city. Jesus ascended about 40 years earlier

    Our disagreement does mean that other things will necessarily also be disagreed over.
    Sure but I was meaning essential doctrine like Jesus is the only way

  5. #80
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Of course it was the nations only that they came from but of course they took the message back to their towns. Why else would God of brought them there as it isn't a coincidence that they were there for the day of Pentecost sermon that peter made as 3000 Jews converted that day? Not every event is mentioned in the bible.
    I agree not every event is mentioned, yet we hear NOTHING of any Christians in any of those places.
    Did they return or only later when persecution broke out?
    I think they did return and some would have turned to Christ in those nations, but did that constitute AT THAT TIME the gospel going to the whole nation, to all the peoples in that nation? Not at all.

    What I was saying is that the end of the age I believe to be the temple and sacrificial age which ended in 70AD with the destruction of the temple and city. Jesus ascended about 40 years earlier
    Not getting what your point is.

    Sure but I was meaning essential doctrine like Jesus is the only way
    Indeed.

  6. #81
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    I agree not every event is mentioned, yet we hear NOTHING of any Christians in any of those places.
    Did they return or only later when persecution broke out?
    I think they did return and some would have turned to Christ in those nations, but did that constitute AT THAT TIME the gospel going to the whole nation, to all the peoples in that nation? Not at all.
    I do think that it mentions them and were they were from for a reason

    What I was saying is that the end of the age I believe to be the temple and sacrificial age which ended in 70AD with the destruction of the temple and city. Jesus ascended about 40 years earlier

    Not getting what your point is.
    You thought that I was tying Daniel 7 to 70AD but I wasn't. I think that the end of the age which Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 was the end of the temple and sacrificial age which ended within that generation in 70AD. But I wasn't saying that Jesus ascended in 70AD that was about 40 years earlier

  7. #82
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    Re: Have you considered why the Beast gathers the armies in Rev 16:15

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I do think that it mentions them and were they were from for a reason
    They are mentioned for a reason.

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