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Thread: Two witnesses

  1. #1

    Two witnesses

    Hi all,
    I am right now into studying end times and have recently seen a video about the two witnesses. I have always thought they are two individuals but this video makes a good case for the witnesses being the church and spiritual Israel. He seems to back up everything with scripture. I will post a link in case anyone is interested.

    Here's the thing. I am fairly new to bible study and am terrible at discernment! I do however know that everything I hear or see from men, teachers or whatever needs to be backed up by scripture and in context.

    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses? Also, didn't Jesus say Elijah already came in the spirit through John the baptist? And He also said that His people will be given power and will prophecy in the last days.

    I hope those on here with so much more bible study experience can help me see what I am missing here. Thank you and here's the link (I hope I did it correctly) and if not it's called two witnesses movie by AoC.

    https://youtu.be/fE81HrKxHoo

  2. #2
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hi all,
    I am right now into studying end times and have recently seen a video about the two witnesses. I have always thought they are two individuals but this video makes a good case for the witnesses being the church and spiritual Israel. He seems to back up everything with scripture. I will post a link in case anyone is interested.

    Here's the thing. I am fairly new to bible study and am terrible at discernment! I do however know that everything I hear or see from men, teachers or whatever needs to be backed up by scripture and in context.

    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses? Also, didn't Jesus say Elijah already came in the spirit through John the baptist? And He also said that His people will be given power and will prophecy in the last days.

    I hope those on here with so much more bible study experience can help me see what I am missing here. Thank you and here's the link (I hope I did it correctly) and if not it's called two witnesses movie by AoC.

    https://youtu.be/fE81HrKxHoo
    Need to watch more than an hour to get whatever scriptures are being used for the claims.
    If you could post the scriptures which you think were supporting the view and say how i context they uphold it then we could respond easily.

    I am not sure anywhere where the Church (meaning His body) is called a lampstand.
    In Rev 1:12 we have this:
    Rev 1:12* Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands

    Now notice these lampstands each represent a church in a different locality. IOW one lampstand for each place where there was a church.
    So a single lampstand is not used for the ENTIRE church.
    I am not sure where Israel is called a lampstand?
    Perhaps you are thinking of the lampstand in the Holy Place?
    Perhaps you are thinking of Zech 4?

    Note that this lampstand is a singular lampstand but with 7 lamps.

    Again where is the church called an olive tree? The Jews are likened to an Olive Tree and the gentiles to a wild olive tree, and then the branches from the wild are grafted into the natural olive.
    Zec 4:11* Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”*
    Zec 4:12* And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?”*
    Zec 4:13* He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.”*
    Zec 4:14* Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”*

    Zechariah is told no more than this.

    However in Rev 11 the two witnesses are described not only as lampstands and olive trees but also as two witnesses.
    Further they will be killed and lie in the street for three and a half days in Jerusalem. A bit difficult if this is the entirety of the church and all of Israel.

    I have no reason to believe they are Israel and the Church.
    I don't think they are Elijah and Moses - however a possibly better idea is that they represent the Law and the Spirit.
    Many things are seen which are representative of individuals, yet those individuals (perhaps as kings) are representative of more people.

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    Re: Two witnesses

    Just to add - watched 20 minutes.
    He makes a few errors in his reasoning.
    The clearest is that he latches onto Luke 1 and claims that this means John was the COMPLETE fulfilment of the Malachi prophecy, yet this is incorrect. Note that this was NOT the great and DREADFUL day of the Lord.
    What he also seems to miss is that it wasn't Elijah himself but rather one in the spirit of Elijah who came. This doesn't preclude a further future person coming ALSO in the spirit of Elijah.
    IOW the prophecy of Elijah coming is in two parts JUST AS the prophecies of Jesus coming are in two parts - His first coming (fulfilled) and His Second (yet to be fulfilled.)

    After 30 minutes, he misses that there are two Olive branches mentioned, not just two Olive trees, and that the lampstand is separate from the Olive trees.

  4. #4

    Re: Two witnesses

    Hello ForHisglory,
    Thank you for your reply. When I came across the video it was late at night in bed so I didn't take notes but I do plan to watch again and write down the scriptures and why I and he think they back up what is being suggested.

    I will post them as soon as I get time to put it together. In the meantime you said the lampstand is singular but the seven lampstands in revelation are seven individual churches. Correct but could it be singular as representing the church as one body (one witness) And the other witness being the olive tree that is spiritual Israel? Sorry if I sound ignorant but honestly I am but I do spend literally all my spare time reading the bible cover to cover and exploring online bible studies. Unfortunately my memory is not what it used to be so it's really hard for me to remember where certain scriptures are.

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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hello ForHisglory,
    Thank you for your reply. When I came across the video it was late at night in bed so I didn't take notes but I do plan to watch again and write down the scriptures and why I and he think they back up what is being suggested.

    I will post them as soon as I get time to put it together. In the meantime you said the lampstand is singular but the seven lampstands in revelation are seven individual churches. Correct but could it be singular as representing the church as one body (one witness) And the other witness being the olive tree that is spiritual Israel? Sorry if I sound ignorant but honestly I am but I do spend literally all my spare time reading the bible cover to cover and exploring online bible studies. Unfortunately my memory is not what it used to be so it's really hard for me to remember where certain scriptures are.
    As the key thing (which the video gets right) is to get into scripture then we need to see IF the explanation actually fits the scriptures given.
    This is where the video goes weak.

    The lampstand when speaking of churches is NEVER spoken of for the entire Church, but only for individual churches (in a locality).
    So it becomes speculation for it to be for the whole church. Also you may recall that Jesus spoke of us as a a lamp to placed on a stand (as individuals.)

    Further it isn't AN Olive Tree and A Lampstand, which could then be Israel and the Church, but TWO lampstands and TWO Olive Trees.
    So it isn't remaining true to the provisional idea.

    There are reasons people consider them as individuals, and this is because they are described as individuals, NOT as groups of individuals. It isn't a group who cause a plague, or a group who have fire come out of their mouths.

    What easily happens is when you move out of what the CONTEXT places primarily and instead look for a similar wording.
    The similar wording gives a relationship but not exactness. It is the CONTEXT and the focus of that which clarifies.

    Hence John the Baptist was Elijah (though literally he wasn't.) Yet also John himself said he wasn't Elijah:
    John 1:21

    Why does John say one thing and Jesus seemingly another, except that they are answering a different aspect of what people are asking.
    John was the messenger who came before Jesus, yet he was not the full fulfilment of Malachi, which is what the Jews were asking - expecting the lord Himself to come in His great and dreadful day.

  6. #6
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hi all,
    I am right now into studying end times and have recently seen a video about the two witnesses. I have always thought they are two individuals but this video makes a good case for the witnesses being the church and spiritual Israel. He seems to back up everything with scripture. I will post a link in case anyone is interested.

    Here's the thing. I am fairly new to bible study and am terrible at discernment! I do however know that everything I hear or see from men, teachers or whatever needs to be backed up by scripture and in context.

    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses? Also, didn't Jesus say Elijah already came in the spirit through John the baptist? And He also said that His people will be given power and will prophecy in the last days.

    I hope those on here with so much more bible study experience can help me see what I am missing here. Thank you and here's the link (I hope I did it correctly) and if not it's called two witnesses movie by AoC.

    https://youtu.be/fE81HrKxHoo
    This is a study that I did a few years ago

    I believe these two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law who pointed to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? It means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

    It took two witnesses to witness to a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

    Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldn’t rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees also the two golden lamp stands and the two anointed ones that stand before the lord. This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4.

    The fire out of their mouths is the word that has power to condemn and convict. They are dressed in sackcloth to represent repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

    They mirror Jesus’ life they have a 3 year ministry and can’t be killed until there time has come. They are also killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) which also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 days like Jesus was and are raised back to life and went up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of their death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

    Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died.

    Why Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

    These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus' words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he was exposing them for who they were and they celebrated His death.

    Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to show us who Jesus is.

  7. #7
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hi all,
    I am right now into studying end times and have recently seen a video about the two witnesses. I have always thought they are two individuals but this video makes a good case for the witnesses being the church and spiritual Israel. He seems to back up everything with scripture. I will post a link in case anyone is interested.

    Here's the thing. I am fairly new to bible study and am terrible at discernment! I do however know that everything I hear or see from men, teachers or whatever needs to be backed up by scripture and in context.

    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses? Also, didn't Jesus say Elijah already came in the spirit through John the baptist? And He also said that His people will be given power and will prophecy in the last days.

    I hope those on here with so much more bible study experience can help me see what I am missing here. Thank you and here's the link (I hope I did it correctly) and if not it's called two witnesses movie by AoC.

    https://youtu.be/fE81HrKxHoo
    I like your attitude. Accept nothing if it is not written in the Bible. So consider these:
    • Hebrew 9:27 categorically states that a man can only die once. Moses died in the Wilderness. One of the Witnesses CANNOT BE MOSES.
    • Neither the term nor the "phrase" "Spiritual Israel" EVER appears in the Bible. Israel are Paul's "brethren ACCORDING TO THE FLESH" (Rom.9:3-4). So there is no such thing as "spiritual Israel" and thus, it could not be one of the Witnesses
    • Daniel 9:27 says that "Daniel's People" will enter into agreement with the Beast. The Two Witnesses OPPOSE the Beast.
    • In Revelation 13:7 it says that the Beast OVERCOMES the saints. These Two Witnesses were NOT OVERCOME for the whole 42 months.
    • According to Ephesians 3:5 and 9 the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament. Thus, one of the Two Olive Trees of Zechariah could NOT be the Church.
    • The Church is given the job of preaching GRACE. But fire that kills goes out of the Witnesses' mouths and "kills". Our Lord Jesus forbade this in Luke 9:54-56. One of the Witnesses could not be the Church.

    Now, let us consider what the Bible DOES say. The setting is around the Temple of God and the City must be Jerusalem. The word "Witnesses" in the Greek means "those who testify of what they have seen or heard". Because the Greek word is the root word for martyr, we can add, "those who testify of what they have seen and/ heard even unto death" (See Vine's expository dictionary). Now, before we go further, these Two Witnesses DIE and are raptured. Can Israel and the Church die? Can their bodies lie in a street of Jerusalem for 3 days? The only thing that dies and can be raptured is MEN. Angels can't die, and Israel is NEVER raptured. All the evidence points to to TWO MEN. So the answer lies in "WHAT DID THEY WITNESS"? What did they both witness that is a warning to the people of Jerusalem and the Temple of God?

    The answer is JUDGMENT! The situation in Jerusalem is critical. It is the moment of Israel's greatest crisis. Gentiles trample the outer court, and a GENTILE KING is in the Holy of Holies (2nd Thess.2:4). This is the Abomination of Desolation that Daniel predicted! And the Abomination of Desolation is the starter of the Great Tribulation. Matthew 24:15-21 says; 15 "WHEN ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ... 21 "For THEN shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.". That is, what is about to take place is greater misery than the flood of Noah. And who then was WITNESS to men's evil just leading up to the flood of Noah? Which MAN that is still alive HAS WITNESSED MEN'S EVIL LEADING UP TO THE FLOOD? YES! ENOCH OF COURSE! Enoch was a WITNESS of men's evil while he was on earth and he must have witnessed God's judgement from heaven. He is a WITNESS and he is still alive! Hebrews 11:5 says; "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; ... ."

    And who else is ALIVE who was WITNESS to idol worship in Israel? Who was WITNESS to 3 years, 42 months, 1260 days and time, times and half a time of God's Judgment on Israel. YES! Elijah! It was Elijah who held back the rain for 3 years for Israel's idol worship. It was Elijah who called fire because Israel are under LAW - NOT GRACE. It was Elijah who "killed" his adversaries. Elijah has never died, so he can die at the hand of the Beast. And if Elijah has never died, he can come again. When our Lord said that Elijah had come He explained it. John Baptist would go "in the SPIRIT of Elijah" - not his BODY. That is, John Baptist who preached imminent JUDGMENT on Israel if they did not REPENT, came "in the SPIRIT of Elijah". But John also preached the Lamb - the overlooking of Israel's sins. But Malachi 4:5 predicts, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"! This is the prediction - NOT OF THE LAMB - but of the LION OF JUDAH - the rampant Warrior-Son of David bringing judgment on the enemies of Israel. Elijah is the second WITNESS. He WITNESSED God's judgment on idol worshiping Israel and God's judgement was 3 years, 42 months, 1260 days, and time, times and half a time.

    Returning to Zechariah 4 where the Two Witnesses are mentioned, what is the CONTEXT? The context of the beginning of Chapter 4 is the last verses of Chapter 3. If we take away the man-made division of God's Word we have; Zechariah 3:8-10 - 2:3
    8 "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
    9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
    1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
    2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
    3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof."


    verse 9 - our Lord Jesus is predicted. "Branch refers to His KINGSHIP for He is the ADOPTED Son of Joseph of Solomon. But by a BRANCH via Nathan He is King by BLOOD - the son of Mary who was of Nathan (LK.3:31). The term "BRANCH" does not refer to Jesus the Savior. It refers to Jesus THE KING. Jesus here is the rampant Warrior-Son of David Who comes as such AT THE END OF THE AGE. Verse 9 concerns the end of this age when Jesus returns as a Warrior-King. And what is the one thing that Israel needs for God to take up again with them? THEIR SINS MUST BE FORGIVEN. When are Israel's sins forgiven. Only at the end of the this age when they are united and get their New Covenant (Jer.31:34).
    verse 10 - Israel is called a "Vine" ONLY when they are united. After the dispersion of the ten northern Tribes and Judah's captivity, they are called a "Fig Tree". So the implication of verse 10 is that this prophecy concerns the time when God will UNITE and RESTORE Israel (at the end of this age)
    verse 1 - "wakened out of a sleep" alludes to resurrection. Daniel, when predicting Israel's resurrection, says; "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ..." (12:2). When are Israel "wakened in resurrection"? When Christ comes (1st Cor.15:23).
    verse 2 - the "Candlestick" is part of the Holy Place of the Temple. The prophecy alludes to a Temple being there. The Temple of Jerusalem should always have been for God. If the Beast sits in the Holiest as Daniel predicted, then a Temple must be in place. But the TWO WITNESSES never prophesied at the Second Temple. They prophesy at the end of this age.

    THE WHOLE CONTEXT OF THE TWO WITNESSES IS AT THE END OF THIS AGE. The Two Witnesses are
    1. Enoch because God's Judgment fell on ALL MEN
    2. Elijah because God's Judgment fell on Israel for the same sin of idol worship
    3. Both men have not died
    4. Both men have WITNESSED God's judgment
    5. Both stood for, and pleased God
    6. Both men can TESTIFY to ALL men and ISRAEL in particular that what is going on in Jerusalem then is "the Abomination of Desolation".
    7. Israel is advised to "flee to the mountains" when they see the Abomination of Desolation. The Two Witnesses must GO TO THE Abomination of Desolation
    8. Israel is SUBJECT to the beast for the Great Tribulation. The Two Witnesses OPPOSE the Beast and are only killed on the last days of it.
    9. The Church is overcome by the Beast for the Great Tribulation. The Two Witnesses OVERCOME BY KILLING - the opposite of the gospel of grace



    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Walls; Sep 9th 2018 at 10:08 PM. Reason: spelling

  8. #8

    Re: Two witnesses

    Thank you, I appreciate such detailed responses. I watched it late before bed so it sure made sense then but of course thinking about the entire church and all Israel lying dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days clearly doesn't sound right.

  9. #9

    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses?
    You are absolutely right that two witnesses are not two people. Two witnesses are two churches: the Church of the Old Testament and the church of the New Testament. The first church began its testimony from the moment of the consecration of the Second Temple. The second church finished its testimony in March 2005, when there was a sign. These two churches prophesied 1260 years each, 1260 + 1260 = 2520 years. From the month of Adar, 516 BC, when the Second Temple was consecrated, until the second strongest earthquake that coincided with Easter in 2005 (the first earthquake was in Christmas 2004), exactly 2520 years passed. The fact that no one in the Christian religion paid attention to this fantastic coincidence of two super-strong earthquakes with two major holidays in the Christian religion, says that this religion is already dead. An additional sign: in that Easter of 2005, Pope John Paul II lost his voice and could not serve the Paschal Mass.

    The fact that two witnesses are Jews and Christians, is the coincidence of the phrases in Revelation and in the 37th chapter of Ezekiel's prophecy:

    And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; ... (Revelation 11:11)

    So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, ...
    (Ezekiel 37:10)

    Ephraim in the prophetic books of the Bible is an image of Christians. The lost tribes of Israel are absorbed in Christianity. And these tribes will return when the remnant of faithful Christians (Ephraim and allied with him the tribes of Israel) will unite with the Jewish people (Judas and allied with him tribes of Israel), in the Third Temple built according to the prophecy of Ezekiel:



  10. #10

    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Thank you, I appreciate such detailed responses. I watched it late before bed so it sure made sense then but of course thinking about the entire church and all Israel lying dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days clearly doesn't sound right.
    This is quite real, if you understand that this city is in the spiritual dimension. For example, what is Jerusalem in the heavenly dimension, in the spiritual sense?

    ... I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. (Isaiah 65:18)

    In the spiritual sense, Jerusalem is the city of joy in the Lord, about the resurrection of Yeshua, the city of the feasts of the Lord, where we spiritually ascend, when in our hearts joy appears about the Lord and His salvation for us. You can not imagine that all people living on Earth will have to come to worship God in the earthly city of Jerusalem? Then how to understand this prophecy:

    And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain;] there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


    (Zechariah 14:16-19)

    This prophecy also refers to the ascent to heavenly Jerusalem, our connection in the spirit with the celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, because this holiday is the birth on earth of the Name "Jesus", in which we are saved. Jesus Christ was born in the autumn, 8 Tishrei, circumcision and the name of Jesus coincides with the 1st day of the Sukkot holiday (15 Tishrei), this holiday is the greatest feast from of the seven feasts of the Lord, according to the Law of Moses. And the fact that Christians celebrate a fake Christmas in December instead of the true Nativity of Jesus Christ is just a shame.

    The spiritual meaning of the city "Sodom and Egypt" is a Christian religion, proud and self-satisfied, she paints God in the image of a despot-pharaoh and tries to subordinate all to her domination. This religion always persecuted dissenters, it burned heretics, it forcibly converted Jews and Gentiles to Christianity. Those faithful witnesses who were under her oppression, righteous people who were her members, were killed by her. Therefore, we can say that in their person Jesus Christ Himself was crucified by this religion.

    However, retribution approaching: Ezekiel's Temple will be built and Babylon will be destroyed.

  11. #11
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Thank you, I appreciate such detailed responses. I watched it late before bed so it sure made sense then but of course thinking about the entire church and all Israel lying dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days clearly doesn't sound right.
    The Book of Revelation is the Capstone of the Bible. The word "Revelation" comes from the Greek "Apokalypsis", which means "the Revealing" (of Christ). Since Adam failed and the earth succumbed to the rulership of the "Prince of this world", God has prepared a recovery for His original plan. The recovery unfolds with the promise to Eve of a Seed that would crush the Serpents head. It continues when Noah survives the flood. Later, Abraham is chosen out of idol-worship to start a nation that would produce the "Last Adam" - the One Who would fulfill God's recovery of man back to his original estate. The time from Adam's fall until Israel entered and conquered the Land of Canaan was a time of Gentile rule. Then, after Judah, the last bastion of God's rule and God's House, collapsed and was carried off to Babylon, a second "Time of the Gentiles" started.

    This "Time of the Gentiles" produces a series of Gentile kings, starting with Nebuchadnezzar, and ending with a Caesar just like Nebuchadnezzar. Mankind, distraught with war, corruption, famine, sickness and the uncertainty of life, is always looking for a "Savior". And men are quick to follow anybody who seems to have the cunning, power, charisma and plan to set things in order. But alas, up till now the Gentile kings/governments have failed. About 2,000 years ago, Jesus Christ, Whose genealogy stretches back to Adam (Luke Chapter 3), and stretches back to Abraham (Matthew Chapter 1) appeared and offered a new type of rule on earth. It was the "Kingdom of Heaven" where the rules that apply in heaven would be established on earth, and God's blessings would pour out on mankind. But both Israel, from which this Heavenly King came from, and the Gentile powers that were - Rome, refused this King and murdered Him.

    God was faced with TWO things - (i) wiping men out for this grievous offense, OR, (ii) using this murder as a substitute justice for all the sins of men. So He sets aside 2,000 years to proclaim a reconciliation with all men, with the Promise that this One Jesus would return to take up rightful rulership of the earth. In this interim time God would raise up a new House for Himself and train His disciples in righteousness and obedience to make sure that they would not repeat the same mistakes that the Gentile governments have done. In this interim time, the "Times of the Gentiles" continue, and the world, having mostly rejected God's overtures at reconciliation, still seek a man to set things in order. The Book of Revelation is essentially the culmination of the "Times of the Gentiles". In it the record of when the FINAL TWO MEN are presented.

    The one is a charismatic, ruthless man who, in league with the "Prince of this world", receives power to force all men to admire, obey and even worship him as savior of the world. The other, well known to mankind after 2,000 years of the gospel, seems to be a retiring, meek, gentle and gracious Man. By Chapter 11 of Revelation, the scene is set for the presentation of the forceful, charismatic, ruthless and all-powerful man to rule the earth. Jerusalem, not Rome, is the choice of all kings who want to rule the earth. From Satan to the kings of the earth, everybody knows that he who gets Jerusalem, is 90% of the way to have dominion over the earth. Once God had chosen Jerusalem for His earthly Abode, the Jews, the Catholics and the Muslims ALL want Jerusalem. It is the center of the political earth.

    So when the Beast, who is obviously a Roman, sets up his UNIVERSAL THRONE (Rev.13:7), he sets it up, NOT in Rome, but in a newly built Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. To do this, the Jews must agree. And it is at this moment that God lays before all men THE CHOICE. It is; "Do you men want a powerful, charismatic, ruthless Gentile king to solve your problems, or do you want Jesus My Son?" The world CHOOSES THE BEAST, and he immediately puts his throne and his idol-effigy-image into the Holy of Holies in the newly built Temple in Jerusalem (2nd Thess.2:4). God calls this in the Bible, "The Abomination of Desolation" and it signals that His great patience with mankind IS OVER. He is incensed. He starts a process of judgment called "the Great Tribulation" in which He sets forth Seals that will make the earth unlivable. But God is ever merciful, and so He gives TWO LAST WARNINGS.
    1. To the whole earth God sends angels to proclaim the "Everlasting Gospel" (Rev.14:6). This gospel is not one of mercy and reconciliation. It is a final warning to men to worship God alone and leave off worship of anything else (Rev.14:7).
    2. To Jerusalem, the CENTER of the crisis, where the Jews have embraced a Gentile king, allowed him to set up his throne in the Holy of Holies, and worshiped him as deity, God sends TWO WITNESSES. These Two Witnesses have each been LIVING WITNESS to God's previous Judgments - that of Noah's time and that of Ahab's time. These are Two Witnesses that God's wrath is not survivable and that the Jews who have embraced the Beast, and the Gentiles who trample the city and the Outer Court of the Temple, have provoked God to unimaginable WRATH - a WRATH worse than the time of Noah. They do not bring a gospel of reconciliation. They bring FIRST HAND WITNESS to what God can do if they do not reverse their ways.

    But, as always, men are at ENMITY WITH GOD (Rom.8:7). They refuse the WITNESS of these two men who were alive at the time of God's judgment. They gnash at the these Two Witnesses, but are unable to touch them for the whole Great Tribulation of 1260 days. Then, when their message is given, God allows the Beast to martyr them. What will men do in the face of this? Will they finally see the error of their ways, or will they rejoice over the death of the Two Witnesses? Their choice is made. They rejoice over the death of these two righteous men. But BOTH these men have faced evil before, and both have walked with God. Their minds are made up. Just as Paul faces Nero and knows he will die, these two Witnesses of God's past Judgments know Who God is and that martyrdom is a grand privilege. Our Lord Jesus, SITTING at the right hand of God "above the highest heavens" SITS as all dignitaries do. BUT ... for Stephen's martyrdom, the God of the universe STANDS UP (Act.7:55)! We humans are but specks in the sight of the God of the universe. We cannot enter His un-appraochable light without dying. We must cast ourselves prostrate when near Him. He SITS while other men bow and prostrate themselves. BUT FOR A MARTYR HE STANDS! What unthinkable honor!

    And what is death to the God of LIFE? His designation is "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". WHY? because all three of these men did not receive the Promises in their life-time. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ALL BELIEVED they would receive the Promises but would die in the interim. That means they KNEW that they would be RESURRECTED in order to gain the Land of Canaan! So too the Two Witnesses. Death for them is no problem. It is a small event that rids them of their corrupt bodies and sets them up to have "glorious bodies like Christ's" (Phil.3:21). Do they fear death? Of course! But they KNOW that it is just the shedding of the flesh to make way for their glorious bodies. And they must wait ONLY HALF A DAY LONGER THAN CHRIST DID! After 3 days, they are raised up and Raptured. God does not take their service and death lightly. In sight of their enemies they are resurrected and raptured. Not even our most modest Savior Jesus did that. Jesus was resurrected all alone in the dark. He is raptured in front of about 120 people. He is the Lord of glory, but He honors the Two Witnesses with higher honor than Himself. He resurrects and Raptures these two brave servants of His IN FULL VIEW OF ALL IN JERUSALEM! WHAT AN HONOR!

  12. #12

    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hi all,
    I am right now into studying end times and have recently seen a video about the two witnesses. I have always thought they are two individuals but this video makes a good case for the witnesses being the church and spiritual Israel. He seems to back up everything with scripture. I will post a link in case anyone is interested.

    Here's the thing. I am fairly new to bible study and am terrible at discernment! I do however know that everything I hear or see from men, teachers or whatever needs to be backed up by scripture and in context.

    My question is, if in revelation John is told the witnesses are the lampstand and the olive tree and in many places the church and Israel are called the lampstand and olive tree then why do so many people think the witnesses are two men like Elijah and Moses? Also, didn't Jesus say Elijah already came in the spirit through John the baptist? And He also said that His people will be given power and will prophecy in the last days.

    I hope those on here with so much more bible study experience can help me see what I am missing here. Thank you and here's the link (I hope I did it correctly) and if not it's called two witnesses movie by AoC.

    https://youtu.be/fE81HrKxHoo

    I haven't watched the link. I don't care to watch videos that make a point because I've seen so many videos that play silly bait and switch games along the way.

    My thoughts are that the two witnesses are two people. They prophesy, they call down fire, they strike the earth with plagues, and then they are killed and their bodies lie in the streets. Unless you want to picture the entire membership of the church slain and bodies piled up in the streets, or argue that being slain is metaphorical, I don't see how you can make it fit a huge group of people.

    Seriously, if you're new to Bible study give the end times stuff a pass for now and get to know Scripture better overall. If you dive right in to end times you'll see so many different perspectives, all of which are apparently backed by solid Scriptural reasoning, that you'll just end up going round in circles.

  13. #13
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonajero View Post
    I haven't watched the link. I don't care to watch videos that make a point because I've seen so many videos that play silly bait and switch games along the way.

    My thoughts are that the two witnesses are two people. They prophesy, they call down fire, they strike the earth with plagues, and then they are killed and their bodies lie in the streets. Unless you want to picture the entire membership of the church slain and bodies piled up in the streets, or argue that being slain is metaphorical, I don't see how you can make it fit a huge group of people.

    Seriously, if you're new to Bible study give the end times stuff a pass for now and get to know Scripture better overall. If you dive right in to end times you'll see so many different perspectives, all of which are apparently backed by solid Scriptural reasoning, that you'll just end up going round in circles.
    The two witnesses are two lampstands.

    In Revelation 1, the seven lampstands are seven city churches. With this as symbolic precedent, and knowing they are based in Jerusalem, these are two city churches in Jerusalem. Possibly the Jewish church and the Arab church of Jerusalem.

  14. #14

    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The two witnesses are two lampstands.

    In Revelation 1, the seven lampstands are seven city churches. With this as symbolic precedent, and knowing they are based in Jerusalem, these are two city churches in Jerusalem. Possibly the Jewish church and the Arab church of Jerusalem.
    Must make for a huge pile of bodies when they are slain and lie dead in the streets.

  15. #15
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Michael and Gabriel.

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