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Thread: Two witnesses

  1. #46
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Hi Walls,
    Of course I know that Hebrews 9:27 and Lazarus seeming to die twice is not a contradiction but is just something else that I need to study for a better understanding.

    I also find your reasoning as to why you believe Enoch is one of the witnesses and why you say that Moses cannot be one makes sense. I still don't know. It's very interesting what you said about Egypt and freemasons as I have always wondered about Moses body and why satan wanted it.
    Keep seeking, keep praying and keep checking what the Word of God says. You'll go a long way. God bless.

  2. #47

    Re: Two witnesses

    Thanks Walls. I really appreciate your replies. They are very detailed and really get me thinking and I don't know anyone personally that cares to study scripture so all I have are forums to come to when I don't get something. There's the internet but there's alot of false info that way.

    I really appreciate how helpful all on this forum are. I am so glad to have you all for help.

    Blessings

  3. #48
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 11 confuses a lot of people, especially when they equate the 7th trumpet with the last trumpet.
    It is the last trumpet specified in Revelation and so many jump to the conclusion it is the same thing.
    The 7th trumpet occurs AFTER the 2 witnesses have been killed. It is at that time when Satan is kicked out of heaven and then the 42 months of the Beast's reign occurs.

    The simple example from scripture is found in genesis (a lot of parallels between the two books). Here we have 7 years of good followed by 7 years bad (the famine in Egypt.)
    Now in the End Time we don't have 7 years bad, but about 3.5, which is preceded by 3.5 good (the Two Witnesses). However many will NOT like the message of the 2W and will reject what they say, and so will be rejoicing when they are killed, and will see the Beast as their saviour.
    He will be the one who kills them, anyone previously will have been killed by the 2W.
    the two thinks don't occur concurrently but sequentially.
    Notice every trumpet ushers in a period of time with events happening.
    The 7th trumpet is associated with Jesus taking reign of the kingdoms of this world. This makes the 7th trumpet a second coming event, and the two witnesses an event immediately preceding the second coming. My methodology is to take the obvious face value of the text unless it contradicts another verse:

    13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

  4. #49
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    Thanks Walls. I really appreciate your replies. They are very detailed and really get me thinking and I don't know anyone personally that cares to study scripture so all I have are forums to come to when I don't get something. There's the internet but there's alot of false info that way.

    I really appreciate how helpful all on this forum are. I am so glad to have you all for help.

    Blessings
    There are places in the thick darkness where someone lights a candle. And all of us "moths" tend to gather there to improve our skills. Keep in mind there were *2 Witnesses,* and not just 1! I made the mistake of not verifying things, or of not doing a proper amount of study, and I landed squarely in a cult. If we pray, if we study, and if we endure through lots of tests, we will be trained to help others avoid many pitfalls.

  5. #50
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The 7th trumpet is associated with Jesus taking reign of the kingdoms of this world. This makes the 7th trumpet a second coming event, and the two witnesses an event immediately preceding the second coming. My methodology is to take the obvious face value of the text unless it contradicts another verse:

    13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”
    I also choose the obvious face value meaning, however I don't think the same thing as you as repeatedly in scripture we are told "now" yet what that word means is NOT at the second it is said, but from that moment it is then coming to pass.
    You see I don't read a verse in isolation but within CONTEXT.
    The second woe is DIRECTLY connected with the 2W, but the 7th trumpet is NOT associated with that, but with the third woe. So the clear statement is that it is NOT concurrent but sequential.
    Further we find what happens at the start of the 7th trumpet is the removal of Satan from heaven which had NOT YET occurred. This is declared in Rev 12 as woe, which again in context makes it the third woe. This is also then tied into the coming of the Beast to reign for 42 months.

    So going by the obvious face value of what is stated within Rev 11 and what yo quoted I CANNOT agree that the 7th woe is the Second Coming event.
    Further when we read Luke 17 we find Luke has something Jesus said DURING the Olivet Discourse stated here and connects a REVEALING of the Son of Man with the START of the GT.

  6. #51
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I also choose the obvious face value meaning, however I don't think the same thing as you as repeatedly in scripture we are told "now" yet what that word means is NOT at the second it is said, but from that moment it is then coming to pass.
    You see I don't read a verse in isolation but within CONTEXT.
    The second woe is DIRECTLY connected with the 2W, but the 7th trumpet is NOT associated with that, but with the third woe. So the clear statement is that it is NOT concurrent but sequential.
    Further we find what happens at the start of the 7th trumpet is the removal of Satan from heaven which had NOT YET occurred. This is declared in Rev 12 as woe, which again in context makes it the third woe. This is also then tied into the coming of the Beast to reign for 42 months.

    So going by the obvious face value of what is stated within Rev 11 and what yo quoted I CANNOT agree that the 7th woe is the Second Coming event.
    Further when we read Luke 17 we find Luke has something Jesus said DURING the Olivet Discourse stated here and connects a REVEALING of the Son of Man with the START of the GT.
    I completely agree the two events are sequential and the two witnesses are associated with the 2nd woe/6th trumpet. The third woe/7th trumpet is the second coming/Jesus taking control of this world; and follows IMMEDIATELY after the two witnesses:
    14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon (TACHY means: speedily, without delay, suddenly , quickly). 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    I see nothing to contradict the start of the preaching of the two witnesses occurring around the same time as the fall of Satan in Rev 12. I understand that you want to associate the woe of Revelation 12 with one of the three woes, but woe just means woe.

    As for your claim the start of the GT is associated with the revealing of the son of man, I do not see that in Luke 17 at all.

    Rather the start of the GT is associated with the revealing of the antichrist , the beast of Rev 13 who reigns for 42 months during the GT.

  7. #52
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I completely agree the two events are sequential and the two witnesses are associated with the 2nd woe/6th trumpet. The third woe/7th trumpet is the second coming/Jesus taking control of this world; and follows IMMEDIATELY after the two witnesses:
    14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon (TACHY means: speedily, without delay, suddenly , quickly). 15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,

    I see nothing to contradict the start of the preaching of the two witnesses occurring around the same time as the fall of Satan in Rev 12. I understand that you want to associate the woe of Revelation 12 with one of the three woes, but woe just means woe.

    As for your claim the start of the GT is associated with the revealing of the son of man, I do not see that in Luke 17 at all.

    Rather the start of the GT is associated with the revealing of the antichrist , the beast of Rev 13 who reigns for 42 months during the GT.
    Revelation speaks of THREE woes.
    The first is clearly stated as being the first woe.
    The second woe is also clearly stated.
    The third is also stated as being a woe - only the word "third" is missing. It isn't required as it is the last woe. Is Rev 12 woe associated with the first or second woe? No it isn't. The return of Jesus is also NOT a woe.

    The 2W are the ones with power and they send plagues etc. The Beast and Satan are unable to act DURING their witness.
    Yet when their testimony is over then the Beast can kill them, which then shows he is the power and will then declare himself as God.
    There is NO good reason to assume that the 7th trumpet IS the return of Jesus. There are some reasons, but when examined with what else is stated it is clear that it is not.

  8. #53
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Revelation speaks of THREE woes.
    The first is clearly stated as being the first woe.
    The second woe is also clearly stated.
    The third is also stated as being a woe - only the word "third" is missing. It isn't required as it is the last woe. Is Rev 12 woe associated with the first or second woe? No it isn't. The return of Jesus is also NOT a woe.

    The 2W are the ones with power and they send plagues etc. The Beast and Satan are unable to act DURING their witness.
    Yet when their testimony is over then the Beast can kill them, which then shows he is the power and will then declare himself as God.
    There is NO good reason to assume that the 7th trumpet IS the return of Jesus. There are some reasons, but when examined with what else is stated it is clear that it is not.
    You say the return of Jesus is not a woe? Remember these woes are for the inhabitants of earth, and the day of the Lord will be a dreadful day of wrath for the unsaved. We are raptured without experiencing the final war, the earthquake, the hailstones, and the judgement of Jehosaphat. (The attacking armies of the world destroyed outside Jerusalem). The second coming will be entirely woeful for the inhabitants of earth.

    Let me repeat that the third woe is the 7th trumpet, and both are associated with the second coming in the wording:
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord

    You say the word "third" is missing. It's right there in Rev 11:14

    Rev 12 is a new vision, it's not about the 7 trumpets. Sure it involves woeful events too.

  9. #54
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You say the return of Jesus is not a woe? Remember these woes are for the inhabitants of earth, and the day of the Lord will be a dreadful day of wrath for the unsaved. We are raptured without experiencing the final war, the earthquake, the hailstones, and the judgement of Jehosaphat. (The attacking armies of the world destroyed outside Jerusalem). The second coming will be entirely woeful for the inhabitants of earth.

    Let me repeat that the third woe is the 7th trumpet, and both are associated with the second coming in the wording:
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord

    You say the word "third" is missing. It's right there in Rev 11:14

    Rev 12 is a new vision, it's not about the 7 trumpets. Sure it involves woeful events too.
    Rev 12 is part of the 7 trumpets - and leads is the connector with the 7 vials, just as the 7th seal leads into the trumpets.
    It also is clearly stated in Rev 12 that this is the woe for the inhabitants of the earth.

    You could argue that God's wrath is woe, but that is something other than His return. His return is the end of Satan's role on earth for 1,000 years and is NOT woe, nor is it ever stated as such. I try to use the words scripture itself uses when possible.

    As I don't believe we are raptured prior to the vials so I don't have reason to agree with you.
    The 7th trumpet is INDEED 100% the third woe, but it is NOT the return of Jesus. If it were then it would say so, but it doesn't.
    Notice included with the 7th trumpet is also the judgement, which doesn't happen for 1,000 years, unless you think it means for the vials.
    Further when is Satan cast out of heaven in your chronology? After the 6th trumpet or after the 7th?

  10. #55
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 12 is part of the 7 trumpets - and leads is the connector with the 7 vials, just as the 7th seal leads into the trumpets.
    It also is clearly stated in Rev 12 that this is the woe for the inhabitants of the earth.

    You could argue that God's wrath is woe, but that is something other than His return. His return is the end of Satan's role on earth for 1,000 years and is NOT woe, nor is it ever stated as such. I try to use the words scripture itself uses when possible.

    As I don't believe we are raptured prior to the vials so I don't have reason to agree with you.
    The 7th trumpet is INDEED 100% the third woe, but it is NOT the return of Jesus. If it were then it would say so, but it doesn't.
    Notice included with the 7th trumpet is also the judgement, which doesn't happen for 1,000 years, unless you think it means for the vials.
    Further when is Satan cast out of heaven in your chronology? After the 6th trumpet or after the 7th?
    I don't know how to respond to all our points of disagreement, knowing that very few change opinions on these sites. All I can request is that you consider and meditate on the possibility that Revelation has more overlapping prophecies about the events leading up to the second coming than people think it does.

    Visions like the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet, the 7th bowl, Satan's wrath, the harvests, ALL have the same endpoint.... The second coming.

    And I repeat, just because a woe is mentioned in Rev 12, doesn't mean it's one of the 3 woes, which were already concluded with the second coming in Rev 11. What is a "woe"? It's great distress, and there will be many events of great distress in the GT. Not just 3. Therefore the mention of a further woe in Rev 12 does not prove it's association with the 3 specific final woes of Rev 11. But I already mentioned that and you still behave like your point is the only manner possible.

  11. #56
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You say the return of Jesus is not a woe? Remember these woes are for the inhabitants of earth, and the day of the Lord will be a dreadful day of wrath for the unsaved. We are raptured without experiencing the final war, the earthquake, the hailstones, and the judgement of Jehosaphat. (The attacking armies of the world destroyed outside Jerusalem). The second coming will be entirely woeful for the inhabitants of earth.

    Let me repeat that the third woe is the 7th trumpet, and both are associated with the second coming in the wording:
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord

    You say the word "third" is missing. It's right there in Rev 11:14

    Rev 12 is a new vision, it's not about the 7 trumpets. Sure it involves woeful events too.
    I concur that the Coming of the Messiah will be catastrophic to the wicked inhabitants of the earth. And yes, the *third woe* is his Glorious Return.
    I agree also, that Rev 12 is a new vision and it precedes the visions in Rev 11.

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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I concur that the Coming of the Messiah will be catastrophic to the wicked inhabitants of the earth. And yes, the *third woe* is his Glorious Return.
    I agree also, that Rev 12 is a new vision and it precedes the visions in Rev 11.
    Thanks for the consensus. I see much of Revelation as various descriptions of the time leading up to the second coming.

  13. #58
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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 12 is part of the 7 trumpets - and leads is the connector with the 7 vials, just as the 7th seal leads into the trumpets.
    It also is clearly stated in Rev 12
    Further when is Satan cast out of heaven in your chronology? After the 6th trumpet or after the 7th?
    I believe the Bible isn't 100 percent clear on how the 7 trumpets fit in with the start of the GT. But it seems like all seven trumpets are towards the end of the GT. I would therefore place Satan being cast out before even the first trumpet because I place Satan cast out as occurring at the same time as start of the reign of the beast.

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    Re: Two witnesses

    There were only TWO people in the entire bible who were taken up into heaven alive: Enoch and Elijah.

    "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." - 2nd Kings ch2 v11.
    &
    "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." - Genesis ch5 v24.

    Jesus explicitly stated that John the Baptist was Elijah in Matthew ch11 v14, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."
    &
    Matthew ch17:
    11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    In John ch1 v21, John the Baptist denies being Elijah. Does this mean that Jesus was wrong? Certainly not, unless you want to call God a liar. John the Baptist might not have known he was Elijah, or it could just be the simple fact that he was at that time "John the Baptist". And just so we're clear, for lack of a better word, this is a type of reincarnation -- But it only applies to Enoch and Elijah, since they did not die a physical death when first going to heaven. That being said, it could very well be that when he was placed into a new flesh body (born again! lol) that all previous memories didn't carry over with him. Either way, doesn't matter, because... "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." - Hebrews ch3 v4. If he knew he was Elijah, made himself a liar by denying that he was Elijah for some that (or some other) purpose.

    So, if Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, they must come back to die as men so scripture can't be broken: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews ch9 v27. Elijah was beheaded as John the Baptist. No mention of Enoch... Yet. We also don't know the particulars of John's death after he was beheaded, if he was raised up after being dead for 3 days. It could also mean (speaking of the verse in Revelation) that being raised from the dead on the 3rd day could be the prophetic millennial day, which has yet to come.

    I would suppose though that Enoch is who we should be looking for in these last days. Since Enoch was taken up just before the flood, and Jesus said that "... as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew ch24 v37). It would make sense that like Noah's days, that God would send a prophet from the actual days of Noah to tell us what to expect. Who better than Enoch?

    [edit]
    Interestingly enough, Enoch was taken first, but comes back after Elijah. Elijah was taken after Enoch, but comes back before Enoch. First last, last first. It's like a biblical "inception meme".
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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    Re: Two witnesses

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The 7th trumpet is associated with Jesus taking reign of the kingdoms of this world. This makes the 7th trumpet a second coming event, and the two witnesses an event immediately preceding the second coming. My methodology is to take the obvious face value of the text unless it contradicts another verse:

    13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”
    You are so close here, you basically have it, I think you miss the timing. The 7th Trumpet is indeed associated with Jesus taking the reign on earth back, but it is also the 3rd Woe and I can prove it, which makes the 7 Vials the 3rd Woe also. You see the 7th Seal was the 7 Trumpets and likewise the 7th Trumpet is all 7 Vials. I saw this when researching Rev. ch. 8, whilst putting the book of Revelation into Chronological order, it solved ch. 11 for me also as per the order. We get the first four Trumpets in Rev. 8 then THIS:

    Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    In other words the angel says there will be a WOE....WOE.....WOE via the THREE TRUMPETS that are left, this tells us that all of the TRUMPETS must bring a Woe !! Well we see the 1st Woe is a Demonic horde of "Locusts" or demons. We see the 2nd Woe is a 200 Million Angelic Army (my opinion) that delivers Plagues which kill 1.5 Billion people.

    Rev. 11 speaks of the 2nd Woe but gives "NO DETAIL" does it ? Likewise we are told the 3rd Woe cometh quickly, but we are never given ANY DETAILS, just like Woe #2 via Rev. 11, and that is because Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses 1260 day (PLUS) ministry. The reason I say PLUS is because the Two-witnesses pray down the Plagues on Mankind, they die after 1260 Days, but their prayers are still actively going forth to God, their prayers bring forth the 7th Trumpet which is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 VIALS !!

    That is why when the 7th Trumpet sounds we are told Jesus/God takes over, that is because we are not given the DETAILS of the 7 Vials, the 7th Trumpet is the 3rd Woe, and in this story line when it blows we are then told what comes to pass with the 3rd Woe without the DETAILS.....................Jesus TAKES OVER................Likewise after the 7th Vial in Rev. ch. 16 Jesus also TAKES OVER.........Same event.

    This is why when I tell everyone about Parenthetical Citations and they don't listen, they will never get it.

    Rev. 1-3 = Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in Heaven having already married the Lamb before Jesus opens the Seals. Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. Then we must JUMP to Rev. 20, the Judgment Seat, and finally Rev. 21-22 is the New Jerusalem and EVERAFTER. That finishes the Chronological order of the book of Revelation.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations that happened during the other chapters or set-a-side insertions into the other chapters already mentioned. For instance, Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses Ministry, they die before the Beast dies, thus they must show up before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem !! I see them as showing up 75 days before the 1260, because I see them as THE BLESSING of the 1335. (1335 Days before Jesus' Second Coming) and the 1290 (AoD) happens 1290 days before Jesus shows up, just like the 1260 happens 1260 days before Jesus shows up and thus ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS !!

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