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Thread: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

  1. #46
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Well, Peter is comparing the earth which is "now", to the one before the flood and compares the flood to baptism in 1Pet.3:20-21.

    So in 2Pet.3:5 when he says the earth was in and out of water, it makes a little more sense in terms of baptism. Otherwise, it just seems like a weird thing to say. What would it matter if the earth was in and out of water, unless he means all life above the water was destroyed.
    I'm sorry, but I still feel there's a disconnect between what you're arguing and what Peter meant. If the earth being in and out of water equals baptism to you, where does that leave heaven? At the end of the day, the discussion is about the NHNE, not just the earth.

  2. #47

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm sorry, but I still feel there's a disconnect between what you're arguing and what Peter meant. If the earth being in and out of water equals baptism to you, where does that leave heaven?
    I think it leaves heaven as how we should see the earth after we've been baptized, even if our sight is limited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    At the end of the day, the discussion is about the NHNE, not just the earth.
    I agree, but existence on this earth has everything to do with the total renewal of the NHNE and this fact is being ignored by those who teach a partial transformation.

  3. #48
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    a. We both agree that the NJ comes down at the onset of the MK.
    Confused as to how you can agree the NJ comes at the start of the MK and yet not have the NHNE start at the same time.
    The NJ is described in Rev 21 and is IN the NHNE.

    b. Isaiah made a generalized prophecy in Isa 65:17-23 about the NHNE and the MK without explaining whether they are concurrent or one coming after the other. It is akin to what Jesus said about the resurrection in John 5:28-29. Here, Jesus also made a generalized prophecy. To find the sequence and timescale for the resurrections, we must look for the answers elsewhere (1 Thess 4:16, Rev 20:5). Same is the case with Isaiah 65: In John's Revelation ch 20 and 21 we find that the MK starts first. When it ends, the GWTJ occurs where death and hell are also cast into the LoF clearing away everything that offends. Then and only then, will NHNE, the Godhead and his throne come down to dwell with us and by this time, the sea is gone Rev 21.1 & 3
    I wouldn't call Isaiah 65 & 66 a generalised prophecy. He simply doesn't separate out the MK, as that is PART of the NHNE.
    They are NOT sequential, for the MK is part of (and at the START of the NHNE). This is why Isaiah has no separation of them. For what he is shown is the NHNE (which includes the MK).
    It is unreasonable to suggest that Isaiah is NOT speaking of the NHNE when speaking of Jerusalem or the no more tears etc (which is quoted by John in Rev 21.)
    It is ONLY because you read Rev 21 after Rev 20 that you could consider the MK separate to the NHNE. There is no requirement for it to be separate, and in FACt a load of issues to claim otherwise - hence the Amil and Premil never being able to get on the same page.

    c. Rev 21:8 and Rev 22:15 refer to the wicked living outside the NJ during the MK. They are forced to come yearly to pay homage to the Messiah (Zech 14:16-17).
    Actually I think you find the wicked do NOT come and pay homage, and are the ones who will face drought etc. Rather it is the nations who are made coming to pay homage - further ONLY those who have washed their robes would be able to enter in order to present their sacrifices etc.

    OK, whether it is replaced or made new, you still didn't answer my question. So I'll repeat, will the NHNE cover the whole heaven and earth at the same time or just start in Jerusalem?
    The NHNE will EVENTUALLY cover the whole heaven and earth. In fact the making new starts BEFORE the MK, when Jesus has Satan and his angels kicked out of Heaven, around three and a half years BEFORE He returns. The process of transformation will be completed AFTER the GWToJ.

    a. The NHNE is not "a coming kingdom" is it?
    Yes.

    b. You are conflating the NJ/MK with the NHNE, this is the problem.
    The NJ is 100% without a doubt part of the NHNE as stated in Rev 21.

    c. What vanishes are the powers in the heavenlies which are defeated when Jesus returns. You have certainly given the destruction of heaven a new spin - one I'm not sure am comfortable with.
    What in Heaven NEEDS destroying? What is wrong with the heavens? It is not anything physical, but rather the spiritual beings which are corrupted (the angels which follow Satan). I find it overly simplistic to think of the heavens as being created wrong, nor anywhere do we get told it is under a curse.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Two aspects, the "atomos" translated as elements and the works are what are destroyed.
    Read Rev 12 and note the disturbance in the heavenlies with the war in heaven.

    I don't know anyone reading what Peter said above, will agree with your interpretation???
    That would suggest they haven't considered the implications of their own view.

    Brother, why do you worry so much about how God will do his thing? The problem is that you're trying too hard to fit the event into our mortal concept of time and you'll always come up short. The scriptures told me that after the MK, the NHNE will be ushered in before our holy God will come down to dwell on earth and that's enough for me.
    Scriptures didn't tell you this - your own perceptions led you this way.
    Jesus IS God and will dwell with Man on earth DURING the MK.
    He will be in the NJ.
    We also will have no need for a temple any further, and we are told it will be done away with in the NJ.
    The Father also loves us and will also be with us.
    Last edited by ForHisglory; Sep 11th 2018 at 08:12 AM. Reason: clarification

  4. #49
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I think it leaves heaven as how we should see the earth after we've been baptized, even if our sight is limited. I agree, but existence on this earth has everything to do with the total renewal of the NHNE and this fact is being ignored by those who teach a partial transformation.
    Baptism has nothing to do with the NHNE.

  5. #50

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Baptism has nothing to do with the NHNE.
    Baptism is symbolic of the death of our flesh and subsequent new life in Christ. By him we now have a clearer view of who the enemy is and victory over that enemy.

    This knowledge which Jesus taught is being ignored by many.

  6. #51
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Baptism is symbolic of the death of our flesh and subsequent new life in Christ. By him we now have a clearer view of who the enemy is and victory over that enemy.

    This knowledge which Jesus taught is being ignored by many.
    I have nothing against this definition because it is true. My only concern is that it has zero to do with the coming of the NHNE.

  7. #52

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have nothing against this definition because it is true. My only concern is that it has zero to do with the coming of the NHNE.
    I think it's the reason Jesus told Israel's religious leaders the kingdom had come near to them, but they wouldn't enter and were hindering others from going in.

  8. #53
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I think it's the reason Jesus told Israel's religious leaders the kingdom had come near to them, but they wouldn't enter and were hindering others from going in.
    If you say so

  9. #54

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If you say so
    It isn't only me saying so. It's what the NT plainly says.

    For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col.3:3

    The knowledge of death and life from the spiritual perspective is spoken of throughout the NT, but is ignored by many in end time discussion. Jesus said,

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jn.6:63

    I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming - and is now here - when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25

    Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph.5:14

    So the river from the throne, which gives life to the dead, is the holy spirit. Jesus is the tee of life, which bears the fruit and heals the nations.

  10. #55
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    It isn't only me saying so. It's what the NT plainly says.

    For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col.3:3

    The knowledge of death and life from the spiritual perspective is spoken of throughout the NT, but is ignored by many in end time discussion. Jesus said,

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Jn.6:63

    I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming - and is now here - when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25

    Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph.5:14

    So the river from the throne, which gives life to the dead, is the holy spirit. Jesus is the tee of life, which bears the fruit and heals the nations.
    You've taken the argument so far out of context that it's almost unrecognizable.

  11. #56

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You've taken the argument so far out of context that it's almost unrecognizable.
    Eternal life being currently given to believers is the context. Its unrecognizable to those who think the ungodly ever really had the upper hand over the Lord Jesus.

  12. #57
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    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Eternal life being currently given to believers is the context. Its unrecognizable to those who think the ungodly ever really had the upper hand over the Lord Jesus.
    No believer has 'eternal life' until the rapture and resurrection occurs. So your claim about it being "currently given to believers" is as false as can be.

  13. #58

    Re: Revelation 22 verse 1 and 2 -How is it interpreted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    No believer has 'eternal life' until the rapture and resurrection occurs. So your claim about it being "currently given to believers" is as false as can be.
    Well, Jesus said,

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Jn.6:47

    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Jn.11:26

    I believe it.

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