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Thread: Irving and Darby

  1. #16
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    Re: Irving and Darby

    The O.P. was the subject of an interesting book that came out in the 80’s. The author did some serious investigation, and traced disp. theory to a woman in Irving’s church, called Margaret McDonald. Irving considered her a ‘prophet.’

    Evidently Darby adopted the ideas without acknowledging his sources because he was hostile toward Irving, not to mention modern day prophetesses.
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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    The O.P. was the subject of an interesting book that came out in the 80’s. The author did some serious investigation, and traced disp. theory to a woman in Irving’s church, called Margaret McDonald. Irving considered her a ‘prophet.’

    Evidently Darby adopted the ideas without acknowledging his sources because he was hostile toward Irving, not to mention modern day prophetesses.
    I read the book when it 1st came out, The Incredible Coverup, by Dave McPherson. There's another one I didn't know about, The Rapture Plot. More recently, I read someone on the Net that investigated the relationship of Darby and Irving. Irving was older, and so Darby fed off of him until he came into his own, and then exploded onto the scene with his new Dispensational Theology. Let me give you the link so you can digest on your own, if you want? https://www.edwardirving.org/untitled.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Yeah, that’s the one. Thanks for the link. There seems to have been quite a bit of cross-pollination with end time stuff in those days. A lot of false cults too.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Yeah, that’s the one. Thanks for the link. There seems to have been quite a bit of cross-pollination with end time stuff in those days. A lot of false cults too.
    Yea, I think Darby, Irving, and Darwin were all in school about the same time. They were all looking for something new and exciting. I do think Irving and Darby had more to contribute than Darwin, however.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, I think Darby, Irving, and Darwin were all in school about the same time. They were all looking for something new and exciting. I do think Irving and Darby had more to contribute than Darwin, however.
    I like the smiley at the end. It seems to take the sting out of your statement. So, here is my suggestion. Instead of surrounding yourself with books by opposers, quote Darby from one of his publications, in context, and show why he was wrong. That would really open up this subject.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I like the smiley at the end. It seems to take the sting out of your statement. So, here is my suggestion. Instead of surrounding yourself with books by opposers, quote Darby from one of his publications, in context, and show why he was wrong. That would really open up this subject.
    Yes, my friend, I put those essential emoticon smileys because otherwise I would often be completely misinterpreted! I really didn't explain what I meant except that I didn't want to be taken too seriously. I like Irving's commitment to spiritual renewal, Darby's distinction between the Church and future Israel, and Darwin's interest in fossil science, as well as animal classifications. But I wouldn't class Darby and Irving with Darwin, because Darby and Irving were Christians, whereas Darwin has done a lot of harm to the Christian cause.

    What groups these 3 together is the fact that around 1830 was a time, in Great Britain, when the modern world was opening up, and serious studies were being engaged. Darby and Irving explored futurism, which is entirely justified, whereas Darby looked backwards, to seek our origins. Nothing here is meant to be insulting, so I wish you and your beliefs nothing but the best!

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why do you believe the trampling ends then? Is that what scripture says?
    Nope, scripture shows that UNLESS Israel says "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" THEN Jesus will NOT return.
    There is a REQUIREMENT in scripture for Revival to happen among those of Israel.
    The present day Jerusalem will be destroyed by the Beast, it will not be liberated as such. However when Jesus comes will be the NJ and then will be TRUE liberation.


    It is a logical progression which ALSO speaks of a chronological one. Without the chronological order there is no logical order.


    Do you believe in coincidences? Especially when scripture states they will occur together?
    Paul actually posits that the one happens AFTER the other. IOW there is a DIRECT connection.


    Sorry, but it isn't about judgement, but then we disagree about Jonah, so why would we agree on this?
    The Gospel is given for SALVATION. Once everyone has the opportunity to be saved, THEN there is no excuse at judgement. SO judgment will follow, but the PRIME purpose is SALVATION as is HIS prime reason for returning.


    So you don't see 144K of Israel as Revival? You don't see 50% of the people following Christ and being saved as Revival? What constitutes Revival for you?
    All my ideas are based on what scripture states and meets the chronological actions found in them. They may be incorrect, but I don't know of a reason why they should be.
    No, actually I don't see the 144K of Israel as revival. And that's because we not only disagree on Jonah, but we also disagree on the continuation of the tribal distinctions of Israel.

    Don't get me wrong--I do believe there will be 144K Israelites. But I think the 12K from each tribe is symbolic of the fact there is an equal representation of all 12 tribes in future Israel.

    For me, the Jewish People are no longer 12 tribes, but the posterity of the 12 tribes, fulfilling what was promised to all 12 of them. Their destiny is to be preserved until they become restored to God as Christians, which is why they follow the Lamb on Mt. Zion (Rev 14). Clearly, they represent a remnant of Israel until when Christ comes they can be built into a full nation.

    So here we have no depiction of a revival, though it may indeed require a revival of sorts. In other words, I'm not in complete disagreement--I just don't see a revival predicted, as a fulfillment of Israel calling, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

    But you could be right! I just wouldn't say that such a revival means the trampling of national Israel immediately comes to an end. That happens, I believe, *at* Christ's Coming.
    Last edited by randyk; Sep 15th 2018 at 02:42 AM.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, actually I don't see the 144K of Israel as revival. And that's because we not only disagree on Jonah, but we also disagree on the continuation of the tribal distinctions of Israel.

    Don't get me wrong--I do believe there will be 144K Israelites. But I think the 12K from each tribe is symbolic of the fact there is an equal representation of all 12 tribes in future Israel.
    IOW you don't believe there really will be 12K from each tribe, or that there will be 144K in total!
    A symbol is symbolic of a REALITY - so what is the REALITY the 144K represent? Surely it speaks of Revival, or is 144K too small a number for you to be Revival?

    For me, the Jewish People are no longer 12 tribes, but the posterity of the 12 tribes, fulfilling what was promised to all 12 of them. Their destiny is to be preserved until they become restored to God as Christians, which is why the follow the Lamb on Mt. Zion (Rev 14). Clearly, they represent a remnant of Israel until when Christ comes they can be built into a full nation.
    What is a Remnant? A Remnant is the Seed for a growth.
    It isn't a small group who are saved, but that through the Remnant many are saved.
    However nowhere are we told they are the ONLY ones of Israel.
    In fact we are shown there are others which John has to count in Rev 11 (in the Temple).
    Further OT prophecy doesn't have such a small number.

    So here we have not the depiction of a revival, though it may indeed require a revival of sorts. In other words, I'm not in complete disagreement--I just don't see a revival predicted, as a fulfillment of Israel calling, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
    But you could be right! I just wouldn't say that such a revival means the trampling of national Israel immediately comes to an end. That happens, I believe, *at* Christ's Coming.
    The trampling is related to Jerusalem, so the question there is simply what constituted the trampling, which IF we agree started in 70 AD means the control of Jerusalem and in particular the Temple by a Gentile nation.
    What then constitutes the End of that trampling? It will be when Jerusalem and in particular the Temple (Mount perhaps) is under Israeli rule.
    So I can understand why some would claim that trampling has ended - in 1948 with the establishment of Israel, or 1967 with the taking control over Jerusalem.

    However in order for Israel to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" is not about the tramling itself, but coinciding with that is a leading into Revival for the nation, which I see the 144K as the start of and the 2W as the culmination of, leading to them to declare "Blessed is He..." and then the revelaing of the Son of Man will occur with the resurrection of the dead of the 2W and the requirement for Israel to flee or be slaughtered.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IOW you don't believe there really will be 12K from each tribe, or that there will be 144K in total!
    A symbol is symbolic of a REALITY - so what is the REALITY the 144K represent? Surely it speaks of Revival, or is 144K too small a number for you to be Revival?
    Yes, it's too small to be a revival. The continuing existence of a Jewish remnant is more the status quo than a revival. Yes, I do believe the number is 144,000. And no, I don't think the 144,000 will be divided up into 12 segments of 12,000 each. Quite frankly, even the 144,000 number could be a number symbolic of the existence of a Christian remnant in Israel over the last 2000 years. Or, this number may represent the preservation of the Jewish People until 144,000 Christians can be established in the Jewish State late in history. I just don't know--difficult passage! I'm just trying to think through it, and this is what I think thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    What is a Remnant? A Remnant is the Seed for a growth.
    It isn't a small group who are saved, but that through the Remnant many are saved.
    However nowhere are we told they are the ONLY ones of Israel.
    In fact we are shown there are others which John has to count in Rev 11 (in the Temple).
    Further OT prophecy doesn't have such a small number.
    All good questions. My answers are not anything more than guesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The trampling is related to Jerusalem, so the question there is simply what constituted the trampling, which IF we agree started in 70 AD means the control of Jerusalem and in particular the Temple by a Gentile nation.
    What then constitutes the End of that trampling? It will be when Jerusalem and in particular the Temple (Mount perhaps) is under Israeli rule.
    So I can understand why some would claim that trampling has ended - in 1948 with the establishment of Israel, or 1967 with the taking control over Jerusalem.

    However in order for Israel to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" is not about the tramling itself, but coinciding with that is a leading into Revival for the nation, which I see the 144K as the start of and the 2W as the culmination of, leading to them to declare "Blessed is He..." and then the revelaing of the Son of Man will occur with the resurrection of the dead of the 2W and the requirement for Israel to flee or be slaughtered.
    For me, you appear to be over-thinking this. Quite simply, the Scriptures portray Jesus as the deliverer of Israel when he comes. Biblical prophecies portray the Messiah as coming to deliver Israel from her oppressors, just as Moses led Israel's deliverance from Egypt during the Exodus.

    So I see the end of the period of "trampling" as the end of a long era of Jewish blindness, with the exception of the Christian remnant and perhaps a Christian remnant in Israel at the end of the age. However, Israel doesn't receive her "sight" until Jesus actually returns from heaven, causing national Israel to "see the one they pierced." Israel is thus delivered in a time of blindness, and is actually liberated by the revelation from heaven of their Messiah.

  10. #25

    Re: Irving and Darby

    Originally posted by randyk
    Ever wonder how the Christian view of Biblical Prophecy became so confused? My thought is that Christian development always requires 2 cycles, 1 to initiate and the 2nd to restore. The initial thrust of Biblical Prophecy was futurism. There would be a future Coming of Christ, a future restoration of Israel, and a future thousand year Kingdom of Christ.This fell into darkness as Christianity acquired many purely nominal believers--believers raised in Christianity and yet without a committed faith.
    In his dialog with Trypho, Justin Martyr said,

    "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Chapter 80.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IOW you don't believe there really will be 12K from each tribe, or that there will be 144K in total!
    A symbol is symbolic of a REALITY - so what is the REALITY the 144K represent? Surely it speaks of Revival, or is 144K too small a number for you to be Revival?


    What is a Remnant? A Remnant is the Seed for a growth.
    It isn't a small group who are saved, but that through the Remnant many are saved.
    However nowhere are we told they are the ONLY ones of Israel.
    In fact we are shown there are others which John has to count in Rev 11 (in the Temple).
    Further OT prophecy doesn't have such a small number.


    The trampling is related to Jerusalem, so the question there is simply what constituted the trampling, which IF we agree started in 70 AD means the control of Jerusalem and in particular the Temple by a Gentile nation.
    What then constitutes the End of that trampling? It will be when Jerusalem and in particular the Temple (Mount perhaps) is under Israeli rule.
    So I can understand why some would claim that trampling has ended - in 1948 with the establishment of Israel, or 1967 with the taking control over Jerusalem.

    However in order for Israel to say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" is not about the trampling itself, but coinciding with that is a leading into Revival for the nation, which I see the 144K as the start of and the 2W as the culmination of, leading to them to declare "Blessed is He..." and then the revelaing of the Son of Man will occur with the resurrection of the dead of the 2W and the requirement for Israel to flee or be slaughtered.
    It will be the entire nation (or rather who is still alive of the entire nation) and the leadership that the passage of Matthew 23:39 is referring. It is an affirmation of Hosea 5:14 - 6:2.

    Hosea 5:14 - 6:3 (ISV) Therefore I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
    and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
    I—even I—will tear them to pieces,
    and then I will leave.
    I will take them away,
    and there will be no rescue.
    15 “I will leave and go back to my place
    until they admit their offense
    and seek my face.
    When affliction comes to them,
    they will eagerly seek me.”

    Chapter 6

    1 “Come, let us return to the Lord;
    even though he has torn us,
    he will heal us.
    Even though he has wounded us,
    he will bind our wounds.
    2 After two days he will restore us to life,
    on the third day he will raise us up,
    and we will live in his presence.
    3 Let us know,
    let us pursue knowledge of the Lord;
    his coming is as certain as the dawn.
    He will come to us like the rain,
    like the autumn and spring rains come on the earth.

    Verse 14 states it is both houses of Jacob that is in view. Verse 15 show that Yeshua will return to His place (which means He had to have left it) until they acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him.

    Verse 2 has some depth involved. it could mean two literal days but in accordance with Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, it is possible that 2000 years is in view. And seeing how that much time has almost past, who knows. And the 3rd day of Verse 2 could mean the millennial kingdom period.

    In verse 3, how will the Messiah come two times. Would seem to suggest fulfilling the spring feasts the first time then the fall feasts the second time. Again, doesn't say that specifically, but we know that He did fulfill the spring feasts the first go around and that only leaves the fall feasts left.

    Lots of depth to that short little passage in Hosea.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    In his dialog with Trypho, Justin Martyr said,

    "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and[believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Chapter 80.
    That's pretty good. I will assume you disagree, and not that you're a Premillennialist?

  13. #28
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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    It will be the entire nation (or rather who is still alive of the entire nation) and the leadership that the passage of Matthew 23:39 is referring. It is an affirmation of Hosea 5:14 - 6:2.

    Hosea 5:14 - 6:3 (ISV) Therefore I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
    and like a young lion to the house of Judah.
    I—even I—will tear them to pieces,
    and then I will leave.
    I will take them away,
    and there will be no rescue.
    15 “I will leave and go back to my place
    until they admit their offense
    and seek my face.
    When affliction comes to them,
    they will eagerly seek me.”

    Chapter 6

    1 “Come, let us return to the Lord;
    even though he has torn us,
    he will heal us.
    Even though he has wounded us,
    he will bind our wounds.
    2 After two days he will restore us to life,
    on the third day he will raise us up,
    and we will live in his presence.
    3 Let us know,
    let us pursue knowledge of the Lord;
    his coming is as certain as the dawn.
    He will come to us like the rain,
    like the autumn and spring rains come on the earth.

    Verse 14 states it is both houses of Jacob that is in view. Verse 15 show that Yeshua will return to His place (which means He had to have left it) until they acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him.

    Verse 2 has some depth involved. it could mean two literal days but in accordance with Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, it is possible that 2000 years is in view. And seeing how that much time has almost past, who knows. And the 3rd day of Verse 2 could mean the millennial kingdom period.

    In verse 3, how will the Messiah come two times. Would seem to suggest fulfilling the spring feasts the first time then the fall feasts the second time. Again, doesn't say that specifically, but we know that He did fulfill the spring feasts the first go around and that only leaves the fall feasts left.

    Lots of depth to that short little passage in Hosea.
    I mostly agree with your understanding. But if you read these brother's postings carefully, or, you've argued with them long enough, you'll find that that they think that Israel will be restored BEFORE our Lord's Second Coming. Hosea's predicted restoration is IN the Third Day. Not before the end of the Second Day. You'll probably agree that Matthew 24:29-31 shows a sequence.
    • First is the Tribulation - Jacob's Trouble.
    • Next is a Sign of the Son of man.
    • Next is the "Arrival" (erchomai - Gk.) of the Son of man.
    • Only THEN does He command the gathering of Israel from the four winds (Ezekiel 37:9) to which only Israel was scattered (Jeremiah 49:36, Zechariah 2:6)

    Although the "Fall Feast" is divided into separate events in Leviticus 23, it is counted as one "gathering" in Exodus 23:14-17 and Deuteronomy 16:16.

    Take care and God bless.

  14. #29
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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's pretty good. I will assume you disagree, and not that you're a Premillennialist?
    Hi Bro. We've now heard from quite a few, but nobody has yet posted Darby's own words in context and shown them to be wrong. I guess your title of the thread got lost. (Not that I have any more success when I start a thread.) I guess that even in death Darby can be intimidating.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hi Bro. We've now heard from quite a few, but nobody has yet posted Darby's own words in context and shown them to be wrong. I guess your title of the thread got lost. (Not that I have any more success when I start a thread.) I guess that even in death Darby can be intimidating.
    http://stempublishing.com/authors/da...IT/27030E.html


    From this site, I quote Darby:
    "Verses 1, 2. Read, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind . . . as that the day of the Lord is present." The coming of Jesus, and the gathering together of the saints to Him at His coming, is a motive, for the latter, not to be troubled as if they were to be included in the judgments which the day of the Lord would usher in.(1) They will be with Him before that.(2) When He shall be revealed from heaven, the saints will have rest; chap. 1:7. Evidently they will no longer be on this world's scene, for it is not then that there will be rest on earth.3)
    The seducers told the Thessalonians, "The day is present"; and not "the day is at hand."* The Greek word is the same that is used in Romans 8:38, and 1 Corinthians 3:22, to signify, "things present," in contrast with "things to come." The language of the seducers signified that this day had been already entered on.(4)
    {*If we change the word "present," the whole epistle becomes unintelligible.}
    Having the declaration that the Lord should come and gather them together to Himself before that day, and being themselves still on earth, the Thessalonians had, by this very fact, a proof that the day was not yet present...
    That which restrains;" the Greek means a thing. What is it? God has not told us what it is, and this, doubtless, because the thing which restrained then is not that which restrains now.(5) Then it was, in one sense, the Roman empire, as the fathers thought; who saw in the power of the Roman empire a hindrance to the revelation of the man of sin, and thus prayed for the prosperity of that empire. At present the hindrance is still the existence of the governments established by God in the world; and God will maintain them as long as there is here below the gathering of His church. Viewed in this light, the hindrance is, at the bottom, the presence of the church and of the Holy Spirit on the earth..."(6)


    1)The coming of Jesus to gather the church is *not* for the purpose of motivating the church to avoid the Great Tribulation as a *judgment.* Rather, Paul is informing the church that there is no immediate escape, that the church must go through lawlesness, and the Antichrist himself, before Christ comes to give them "rest." The motivation is to live righteous lives, up against trials to our faith, so that when Christ comes we will be rewarded.


    2) There is nothing in this passage that indicates we, the church, will be "with the Lord" before the day Christ returns to destroy the Antichrist.


    3) Darby's implication here is that the church will "evidently not be on this world's scene," meaning they will have been "raptured" before the troubling time of the Great Tribulation. Nothing in this passage suggests that "rest" is given to the church before Christ comes to destroy the Antichrist.


    4) Darby is correct here. The "seducers," ie false prophets within the church, had indicated to the church that the Kingdom had, in a sense, already come. They were teaching that they themselves were establishing the Kingdom in their own ministries. But Paul was saying that this "day" had not yet come, ie the Messianic Kingdom. Rather, it was, as Jesus indicated, "near," and not yet here.


    5) Paul did not fail to identify the Restrainer to show that it was more than a contemporary event, that more, it was a future event. Rather, as he continues on to admit, the Restraint actually began with the Roman Empire, which at the time was an antichristian government. In the future it would be the same kind of restraint, until Antichrist is finally allowed to appear.


    6) A future Restrainer would not be anythng more than what the restraint was in the Early Church. As Darby admits, the early restraint was the Roman government, and this was not Christian, although it did enforce law and order. However, it is completely different to then say a future Restrainer would be the church and the Holy Spirit. No such inference is being made by Paul. On the contrary, there is every reason to assume that the church is being encouraged to maintain fidelity to God during the time of Antichrist's oppression. "Rest" is promised when Christ comes *to destroy Antichrist!* at Christ's coming.

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