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Thread: Irving and Darby

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    Irving and Darby

    It may be that Darby read Irving's writings, and thus both men together contributed to modern Dispensationalism. I don't know that Irving was Pretribulational, but he appears to have been excited by Manuel Lacunza's writings, which restored Premillennial ideas. As such, Irving was both a Futurist and a supporter of the notion of separation between a heavenly Church and an earthly Israel, between spiritual Christianity and the carnal Jews.

    Darby may have followed up on this supposed dichotomy between the Church and Israel by creating Dispensationalism, which also divides the spiritual Church and carnal Israel, as well as predicts a future return of national Israel. The age of the Church and the age of Israel's restoration would be separated by what Darby taught would be a Pretribulational Rapture. There would be a Tribulation Period in which God would bring Israel back to Himself, through a cleansing process.

    Elsewhere, I suggested the following, and I'd like to enter it into this particular group...

    Ever wonder how the Christian view of Biblical Prophecy became so confused? My thought is that Christian development always requires 2 cycles, 1 to initiate and the 2nd to restore. The initial thrust of Biblical Prophecy was futurism. There would be a future Coming of Christ, a future restoration of Israel, and a future thousand year Kingdom of Christ.This fell into darkness as Christianity acquired many purely nominal believers--believers raised in Christianity and yet without a committed faith. Many have blamed the Church for this, but the Church is actually a mixed group of true followers of Christ and these "nominal believers."

    As this mixture developed in the Church, faith was lost in the conversion of national Israel. Only a small remnant was converting to Christianity among the Jews, and this brought about a judgmental attitude towards the Jews. Paul had actually predicted that this situation would continue among the Jews until Jesus returns to restore the nation. As Jesus said, he is coming to separate the sheep and the goats in Israel.


    But loss of faith in Israel's national salvation caused a loss of faith in literal interpretation of Prophecy, and the prophecies of Israel were then applied to the Church. This is called "Replacement Theology." Israel will no longer be saved. The Church *is* Israel, this theory concludes. And this theory has a very long history within the Church! Futurism fell onto hard times.


    As the Church lost faith in Israel's future salvation, the Church also began to lose faith in a future Millennium. The Millennium (Revelation 20) began to be viewed as symbolic of the current Church Age. Again, Futurism was dying.


    But gradually restoration took place. Things got so dark for the Catholic Church that the persecuted Protestants began to identify the Catholic Pope as the "Antichrist." This was again a return to futuristic interpretation of Biblical Prophecy. The Antichrist had not been fulfilled, historically, in ancient Rome, and in the Caesars. Now, the Protestant Church saw the Catholic Church as the Antichrist, or as the False Prophet.


    At the same time the Catholic priest Francisco de Ribera began to defend the Catholic Church by agreeing with the Protestants that the Antichrist is future. He argued, then, that a Catholic Pope could not be the Antichrist! If the Antichrist is future, how can the Protestants claim the Catholic Church, at that time, was the Antichrist?


    Still, there was no faith at all that there would be a literal, future Millennial Kingdom of Christ. That was left for Manuel Lacunza to restore--not just the idea of a future Antichrist, but also, the idea of a future, literal restoration of the Millennial Kingdom.


    It was Edward Irving who also picked up on this futurism. And it was John N. Darby who devised the idea of a futurism with all 3 elements, future coming of Christ, future Millennial Kingdom, and future restoration of national Israel.


    Since the Church had viewed itself as a type of "Israel" in history, Darby's position came to be that there were, in a sense, 2 peoples of God--the Church and literal Israel. Church history would continue on without the fulfillment of national Israel. But gradually there would be a return to the age of Israel.


    This was Dispensationalism--the separation of the Church Age from the Age of Israel's restoration. That unfortunately creates a wierd dichotomy, which I feel we must now address. Israel's restoration is in the future, after Christ's Coming. The fall of Israel is not permanent in the present age, but it will continue in the present age, with only a remnant converting to Christianity. Israel's national salvation will not take place before Christ's Coming, but after, when Christ comes to judge between sheep and goats.


    Darby separated the Church Age from the Age of Israel's restoration by an artificial construct--the Pretribulation Rapture. This idea has never existed in history, and yet he brazenly created it to justify the reintroduction of Israel's literal salvation into Futurism. I'm happy he reinforced the idea of Israel's literal national salvation, but I'm not happy with a false doctrine of a Pretribulation Rapture.


    It now remains for us to expose the error of Pretribulationism. Church history and Israel's history are not to be separated. But Israel's national restoration is, indeed, future. We need to get rid of any prejudice or rejection of the Jews, and yet without endorsing unbelieving Jews. In sum, we should pray for the Jews. We know some will make it, and some will not--just like every other nation under the sun. We're all the same...

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    I prefer a straight scriptural discussion, because even in the time of the early church and the apostles, even the apostles debated issues with each other. There were also many false doctrines around. So where then do we get accurate doctrine from? Directly from the bible, not from the varied historical opinions of man. I agree that the pretrib rapture doctrine is wrong, and as per many false doctrines, has gained popularity during certain stages in history.

    I get my post-trib view from many verses in the bible, but the irony is that the rapture verses themselves point directly to post trib. Descriptions like Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1Thessalonians 4/5 all describe a post-trib rapture..

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Yes. Let us not turn this BIBLE Forum into discussion about men's discussions. It is a rather sad moment when truth is to be gained from fallen men. Let us discuss scripture - in its context.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I prefer a straight scriptural discussion, because even in the time of the early church and the apostles, even the apostles debated issues with each other. There were also many false doctrines around. So where then do we get accurate doctrine from? Directly from the bible, not from the varied historical opinions of man. I agree that the pretrib rapture doctrine is wrong, and as per many false doctrines, has gained popularity during certain stages in history.

    I get my post-trib view from many verses in the bible, but the irony is that the rapture verses themselves point directly to post trib. Descriptions like Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1Thessalonians 4/5 all describe a post-trib rapture..
    I agree that the Bible is more authoritative than historical discussion. But it helps me, after many years of arguing these things, to know how this disagreement has gotten so convoluted. Historical discussion brings these things to light for me, and, I hope, for others.

    It is not simply the Bible that is the panacea for all Christian arguments. And that's because we argue different interpretations of the same Bible!

    And so, I believe it is helpful to see how the Church, in the past, has dealt with these issues. We are then able to see these beliefs lived out in real time, and in their own historical context. For, there is "nothing new under the sun."

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Just to point to the point stated by Paul in Romans 11 that Israel will be turned to the Lord BEFORE His coming.
    Jesus stated this as a REQUIREMENT before He returns in Matt 24.
    I pity those who think that Israel's restoration is AFTER His return.
    This is also why the 144K are clearly mentioned in Rev 7, who are of Israel and NOT of the Church per se.
    The 2W will also be witnessing in Jerusalem until they are killed by the Beast.
    Prophecy indicates that roughly 50% will die and 50% saved immediately following this event - Zech 14 & Matt 24.
    So I am expectant of a move of many Israelis to Jesus, and will continue to pray for this in expectation.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Just to point to the point stated by Paul in Romans 11 that Israel will be turned to the Lord BEFORE His coming.
    Jesus stated this as a REQUIREMENT before He returns in Matt 24.
    I pity those who think that Israel's restoration is AFTER His return.
    This is also why the 144K are clearly mentioned in Rev 7, who are of Israel and NOT of the Church per se.
    The 2W will also be witnessing in Jerusalem until they are killed by the Beast.
    Prophecy indicates that roughly 50% will die and 50% saved immediately following this event - Zech 14 & Matt 24.
    So I am expectant of a move of many Israelis to Jesus, and will continue to pray for this in expectation.
    A pity you did not give the verses in both Matthew 24 and Romans 11. Matthew 24:30-31 gives the sequence:

    30 "And then (after the tribulation) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


    The sequence is:
    1. The Great Tribulation
    2. THEN a sign
    3. THEN the "arrival" (erchomai - Gk.) of the Son of man from the clouds
    4. THEN great mourning
    5. THEN angels sent to gather all Israel from the four winds (Ezek.37:9) to which they were scattered (Jer.49:36; Zech.2:6)

    The 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 verily are from Israel. But they are not sealed because they turn to Christ. (Dan is missing).

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Just to point to the point stated by Paul in Romans 11 that Israel will be turned to the Lord BEFORE His coming.
    Jesus stated this as a REQUIREMENT before He returns in Matt 24.
    I pity those who think that Israel's restoration is AFTER His return.
    This is also why the 144K are clearly mentioned in Rev 7, who are of Israel and NOT of the Church per se.
    The 2W will also be witnessing in Jerusalem until they are killed by the Beast.
    Prophecy indicates that roughly 50% will die and 50% saved immediately following this event - Zech 14 & Matt 24.
    So I am expectant of a move of many Israelis to Jesus, and will continue to pray for this in expectation.
    Hi Glory: Nice to talk with you again. I am, in fact, exploring this point, that Jesus said Israel must invite him *before* he returns. But reconcile that with the fact Paul said, and Jesus said, the condition of Israel in the present age remains the same until "the times of the Gentiles are finished," ie at Christ's return.

    I do believe Israel's *national* restoration takes place *after* Christ's return. But the *remnant* of Christian Israel is the NT reality, and may be the instrument God uses to invite Christ back to Israel. This is especially true now that we have a modern Israeli State.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Hi Glory: Nice to talk with you again. I am, in fact, exploring this point, that Jesus said Israel must invite him *before* he returns. But reconcile that with the fact Paul said, and Jesus said, the condition of Israel in the present age remains the same until "the times of the Gentiles are finished," ie at Christ's return.

    I do believe Israel's *national* restoration takes place *after* Christ's return. But the *remnant* of Christian Israel is the NT reality, and may be the instrument God uses to invite Christ back to Israel. This is especially true now that we have a modern Israeli State.
    Hoping not to butt in, but I couldn't resist some observations to this.

    It is true that Saul and David were "invited" to be kings. But once the bloodline is set, the king of Israel is chosen by God from that bloodline. Our Lord Jesus is King of Israel by appointment of Jehovah. His bloodline via Mary via Nathan is correct, His legal status by adoption by Joseph of Solomon is established. All that remains is the Father's TIMING. And there we agree. The "Times of the Gentiles" must be complete. This is accomplished by TWO things;
    The nations, and the nation of Israel are offered a CHOICE - the Christ which has been preached for 2,000 years, or, the "Anti" Christ, the
    1. Beast who is self imposed for 3 years. The nations, and the nation of Israel choose the Beast and he is to be their last Gentile king
    2. A military defeat of the the Combined Armed Forces of this Gentile king - at Armageddon

    "Christian Israel" is a contradiction. If an Israelite embraces Christ he;
    • is a New Creature, a New Man, and his birth by blood to Israel "passes away" (2nd Cor.5:17)
    • is a "son of God" by rebirth by the Holy Spirit and no longer a son of Isaac (Jn.1:13; 1st Pet.1:23)
    • belongs to the Church wherein ethnicity has NEGATED (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11)

    The CONDITION for the recovery of Israel is NOT turning to Christ. It is turning to the Law of Moses "with all their hearts and souls" Deuteronomy 30:1-6 reads;

    1 "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
    5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
    6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."


    Notice in this prophecy that in;
    verse 1 it ASSUMES that Israel will fall under curse and be dispersed
    verse 2 Israel must return to what Moses taught "THAT DAY" - the Law
    verse 3 Israel's Diaspora is confirmed and their recovery is not Rebirth and Eternal Life, but "gathering" FROM the nations in which GOD dispersed them
    verse 5 Israel's recovery is not Rebirth and Eternal Life but "gathering" TO the Land of Canaan
    verse 6 shows that they are different to the Church. A Christian in resurrection cannot marry and have children (Lk.20:33-36), but Israel, with "Terrestrial glory" in resurrection, will have offspring - "the heart of thy SEED"

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Hi Glory: Nice to talk with you again. I am, in fact, exploring this point, that Jesus said Israel must invite him *before* he returns. But reconcile that with the fact Paul said, and Jesus said, the condition of Israel in the present age remains the same until "the times of the Gentiles are finished," ie at Christ's return.

    I do believe Israel's *national* restoration takes place *after* Christ's return. But the *remnant* of Christian Israel is the NT reality, and may be the instrument God uses to invite Christ back to Israel. This is especially true now that we have a modern Israeli State.
    We have to be careful when quoting what scripture actually says and then how we interpret what it says.
    There are two separate verses which speak of this reality. I think you separate them out:

    Luk 21:24* They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Notice that we agree that verse 24 occurred in 70 AD. The trampling of Jerusalem continued forward from that time until now.
    Some would say that in 1948 this trampling ended. Others that it stopped in 1967 when Jerusalem was taken by the Jews.
    I am not convinced that either date is correct, but I do find it interesting that the US embassy moved to Jerusalem in recognition of Jerusalem as the capital in 2018 (70 years on from 1948.)
    For me I believe the trampling ends when the Two Witnesses come. They will be on the Temple Mount and no one will be able to dislodged them.

    Now the timing of the trampling is important because Jesus links it to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.
    Further we should note there is a REQUIREMENT for the time of the Gentiles to end for there then to be the time for the Jews BEFORE Jesus' return.

    Rom 11:15* For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?*

    Now did you note how Paul has this insertion BEFORE he goes into the time of the Gentiles ending. IOW Paul is highlighting that WHEN their acceptance comes, so then will also be the time of resurrection from the dead, which we understand is connected with the Rapture (as per 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15) so the acceptance happens BEFORE Jesus returns.

    Rom 11:25* Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.*

    Now again note this partial hardening lasts UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. This fullness is when there time is fulfilled. It is NOT when the Gentiles are finished, which brings a different meaning to what is happening. So we need to consider WHAT the fullness or fulfilling of the Gentiles means.

    The answer we find is in Matthew:
    Mat 24:14* And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    So my interpretation for the timing is:
    Gospel preached to every Gentile people, language and tribe - this fulfills the time of the Gentiles, and so the end comes.
    The end includes the ceasing of the trampling of Jerusalem and the 2W witnessing to those of Israel (this was preceded by the 144K).
    Gentiles will continue to receive Christ, but the focus will shift from the Gentiles who have now had the opportunity to receive or reject Jesus, to Jerusalem and the Jews.

    This then leads to a national awakening during which the Beast will be revealed by killing the 2W and those who give glory to God and have repented will follow their teachings and flee into the wilderness, where they will be nourished by God until the End of the GT. Those Jews who did not repent, and did not give glory to God and so did not flee will be taken by the Beast and his armies.

    Of course the restoration of ALL things occurs AFTER Jesus' return, but there is the period of revival beforehand.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hoping not to butt in, but I couldn't resist some observations to this.

    It is true that Saul and David were "invited" to be kings. But once the bloodline is set, the king of Israel is chosen by God from that bloodline. Our Lord Jesus is King of Israel by appointment of Jehovah. His bloodline via Mary via Nathan is correct, His legal status by adoption by Joseph of Solomon is established. All that remains is the Father's TIMING. And there we agree. The "Times of the Gentiles" must be complete. This is accomplished by TWO things;
    The nations, and the nation of Israel are offered a CHOICE - the Christ which has been preached for 2,000 years, or, the "Anti" Christ, the
    1. Beast who is self imposed for 3 years. The nations, and the nation of Israel choose the Beast and he is to be their last Gentile king
    2. A military defeat of the the Combined Armed Forces of this Gentile king - at Armageddon

    "Christian Israel" is a contradiction. If an Israelite embraces Christ he;
    • is a New Creature, a New Man, and his birth by blood to Israel "passes away" (2nd Cor.5:17)
    • is a "son of God" by rebirth by the Holy Spirit and no longer a son of Isaac (Jn.1:13; 1st Pet.1:23)
    • belongs to the Church wherein ethnicity has NEGATED (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11)

    The CONDITION for the recovery of Israel is NOT turning to Christ. It is turning to the Law of Moses "with all their hearts and souls" Deuteronomy 30:1-6 reads;

    1 "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
    5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
    6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."


    Notice in this prophecy that in;
    verse 1 it ASSUMES that Israel will fall under curse and be dispersed
    verse 2 Israel must return to what Moses taught "THAT DAY" - the Law
    verse 3 Israel's Diaspora is confirmed and their recovery is not Rebirth and Eternal Life, but "gathering" FROM the nations in which GOD dispersed them
    verse 5 Israel's recovery is not Rebirth and Eternal Life but "gathering" TO the Land of Canaan
    verse 6 shows that they are different to the Church. A Christian in resurrection cannot marry and have children (Lk.20:33-36), but Israel, with "Terrestrial glory" in resurrection, will have offspring - "the heart of thy SEED"
    You're always welcome to "butt in," walls! Even though I disagree with your eschatology, you have much that is interesting to me, because you carefully base your views on the word of God. I'm bound to agree with many of your statements, even though I don't agree with your systematic eschatology overall.

    I do agree that Christians become "new creatures," causing their ethnicities to lose relevance in some respects. But obviously, Christians still have their ethnicity. So, I think the dismissal of our ethnicity has more to do with dissolving religious differences between Men of Faith and Pagans than it does actually losing our physical characteristics.

    I do think Israel will turn to Christ. But I'm not sure this requires it take place *before* Christ's 2nd Coming. I think Jesus is just saying that among the survivors of Armageddon the only ones who will participate in the coming national restoration are those who embrace him as their king. Sedition will not be tolerated. Dissenters will be cast out.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We have to be careful when quoting what scripture actually says and then how we interpret what it says.
    There are two separate verses which speak of this reality. I think you separate them out:

    Luk 21:24* They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Notice that we agree that verse 24 occurred in 70 AD. The trampling of Jerusalem continued forward from that time until now.
    Some would say that in 1948 this trampling ended. Others that it stopped in 1967 when Jerusalem was taken by the Jews.
    I am not convinced that either date is correct, but I do find it interesting that the US embassy moved to Jerusalem in recognition of Jerusalem as the capital in 2018 (70 years on from 1948.)
    For me I believe the trampling ends when the Two Witnesses come. They will be on the Temple Mount and no one will be able to dislodged them.
    I believe the "trampling" ends at Christ's Return. But one thing for sure: it is *exciting* to see biblical prophecy unfold before our very eyes! We are indeed seeing a progression in the liberation of Jerusalem from pagan trampling! 48, 67, and even the move of the US embassy to Jerusalem is extremely significant. Clearly, the 2 Witnesses play a role in this too. I just think that biblically, Jerusalem is not fully liberated until Messiah comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Now the timing of the trampling is important because Jesus links it to the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled.
    Further we should note there is a REQUIREMENT for the time of the Gentiles to end for there then to be the time for the Jews BEFORE Jesus' return.

    Rom 11:15* For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?*

    Now did you note how Paul has this insertion BEFORE he goes into the time of the Gentiles ending. IOW Paul is highlighting that WHEN their acceptance comes, so then will also be the time of resurrection from the dead, which we understand is connected with the Rapture (as per 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15) so the acceptance happens BEFORE Jesus returns.
    The sequence of Paul's reference to Israel's acceptance, with respect to Christ's 2nd Coming, is simply a logical progression--not a chronology. I think it is simply logical to posit that Israel must embrace their Messiah when he comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Rom 11:25* Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.*

    Now again note this partial hardening lasts UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. This fullness is when there time is fulfilled. It is NOT when the Gentiles are finished, which brings a different meaning to what is happening. So we need to consider WHAT the fullness or fulfilling of the Gentiles means.
    I rather think that Paul is making these 2 elements coincidental, the end of the partial hardening and the end of the times of the Gentiles, who oppress Jerusalem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The answer we find is in Matthew:
    Mat 24:14* And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    So my interpretation for the timing is:
    Gospel preached to every Gentile people, language and tribe - this fulfills the time of the Gentiles, and so the end comes.
    The end includes the ceasing of the trampling of Jerusalem and the 2W witnessing to those of Israel (this was preceded by the 144K).
    Gentiles will continue to receive Christ, but the focus will shift from the Gentiles who have now had the opportunity to receive or reject Jesus, to Jerusalem and the Jews.
    I view the completion of the Gospel testimony to be Jesus' typifying it as a warning to the world before judgment. As Jonah was sent to warn Ninevah before judgment, so Jesus saw his Gospel as a warning to the world before his Kingdom comes, as well as the means to fulfil God's promises to Abraham, to provide "many nations" of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    This then leads to a national awakening during which the Beast will be revealed by killing the 2W and those who give glory to God and have repented will follow their teachings and flee into the wilderness, where they will be nourished by God until the End of the GT. Those Jews who did not repent, and did not give glory to God and so did not flee will be taken by the Beast and his armies.

    Of course the restoration of ALL things occurs AFTER Jesus' return, but there is the period of revival beforehand.
    I don't see any revival beforehand. But there is that element of the Gospel that is building up the international Church. How many more revivals we see I don't know. There may also be a restoration of Christianity among the Jews in Israel--I don't know? Thanks for your ideas.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're always welcome to "butt in," walls! Even though I disagree with your eschatology, you have much that is interesting to me, because you carefully base your views on the word of God. I'm bound to agree with many of your statements, even though I don't agree with your systematic eschatology overall.

    I do agree that Christians become "new creatures," causing their ethnicities to lose relevance in some respects. But obviously, Christians still have their ethnicity. So, I think the dismissal of our ethnicity has more to do with dissolving religious differences between Men of Faith and Pagans than it does actually losing our physical characteristics.

    I do think Israel will turn to Christ. But I'm not sure this requires it take place *before* Christ's 2nd Coming. I think Jesus is just saying that among the survivors of Armageddon the only ones who will participate in the coming national restoration are those who embrace him as their king. Sedition will not be tolerated. Dissenters will be cast out.
    Until your last paragraph I was set on signing off. You've been clear and honest about your position, and I appreciate that. But your last paragraph flies in the face of all prophecy of the Old Testament.
    • It is not Israel who fights at Armageddon. It Christ and the Overcomers of the Church verses the Beast and the military power of the combined earth (Rev.16:13-16; 19:11-15)
    • Israel's restoration is for "ALL Israel" (Rom.11:26). This includes every man and woman who proceeded from Jacob's loins over about 4,000 years - good and bad (except those not circumcised - Dan.12:2)
    • The Covenant of Promise with Abraham does not include the moral state of any Israelite. It is "you and your seed" without restriction
    • Ezekiel 37:11 predicts that, "... these bones are the whole house of Israel: ... ."
    • Christ's death is enough for the most heinous of sins, even David's betrayal and murder of his faithful soldier Uriah, and his adulterous union wife Uriah's wife. ALL Israel's sins will be forgiven (Isa.1:18)

    And the most interesting of all is that "sedition" does not come into the question. Every Israelite who stands one with the murder of Jesus of Bethlehem, and every Israelite who embraces the Beast, DOES SO BELIEVING HE HAS ISRAEL'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART (Jn.11:48-50)

    No need to answer. I'm just indulging myself and comparing men's words to God's Words.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Until your last paragraph I was set on signing off. You've been clear and honest about your position, and I appreciate that. But your last paragraph flies in the face of all prophecy of the Old Testament.
    • It is not Israel who fights at Armageddon. It Christ and the Overcomers of the Church verses the Beast and the military power of the combined earth (Rev.16:13-16; 19:11-15)
    • Israel's restoration is for "ALL Israel" (Rom.11:26). This includes every man and woman who proceeded from Jacob's loins over about 4,000 years - good and bad (except those not circumcised - Dan.12:2)
    • The Covenant of Promise with Abraham does not include the moral state of any Israelite. It is "you and your seed" without restriction
    • Ezekiel 37:11 predicts that, "... these bones are the whole house of Israel: ... ."
    • Christ's death is enough for the most heinous of sins, even David's betrayal and murder of his faithful soldier Uriah, and his adulterous union wife Uriah's wife. ALL Israel's sins will be forgiven (Isa.1:18)

    And the most interesting of all is that "sedition" does not come into the question. Every Israelite who stands one with the murder of Jesus of Bethlehem, and every Israelite who embraces the Beast, DOES SO BELIEVING HE HAS ISRAEL'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART (Jn.11:48-50)

    No need to answer. I'm just indulging myself and comparing men's words to God's Words.
    Trouble is, every one of us here believe we're trying to conform to God's explicit words. You are no different. It doesn't set you apart as the most logical, the most righteous, or the most prophetic, ie able to hear God. We must all pray, and that requires humility.

    But if you have no interest in debating the issue, I'm good with that. After all, there are no winners here--how can people on the same team compete?

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Trouble is, every one of us here believe we're trying to conform to God's explicit words. You are no different. It doesn't set you apart as the most logical, the most righteous, or the most prophetic, ie able to hear God. We must all pray, and that requires humility.

    But if you have no interest in debating the issue, I'm good with that. After all, there are no winners here--how can people on the same team compete?
    Your inference about "humility" is probably correct. The bounds of the falleness of man know no limits. But my suggestion for you not to answer was to show that I was not debating - just musing.

    Have you noticed that hardly anybody was prepared to bring up Darby and SHOW were he was wrong? He has many accusers but they display a dearth of proof. Irving probably did not get the recognition he deserved. Both these men gave up much to contend for what they saw. Many, unable to counter Irvine, rather point to his excommunication, as if that was a criteria for being wrong. Darby too, is vilified for the bust-up between him and Newton, and shameful as it was in retrospect, both these men were fighting an enemy who was short on scripture and long on tradition - a bit like our Lord Jesus and the Pharisees. I think we can grant them a bit of humanity.

    The hallmark of the Brethren was that they sat down and said; "Let's wipe the slate clean. Let's ignore all teaching and tradition, and ONLY take what scripture says". I think that was highly commendable. The Lord thinks so. "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). There is no doubt that, love him or hate him, Darby left a big mark on Christianity. I think anybody who takes scripture, and especially prophecy to be literal, cannot land far from Darby and co.

    PS. I am not Brethren, but my studies show that their writings cannot be ignored. Their contribution to modern eschatology was enormous.

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    Re: Irving and Darby

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe the "trampling" ends at Christ's Return. But one thing for sure: it is *exciting* to see biblical prophecy unfold before our very eyes! We are indeed seeing a progression in the liberation of Jerusalem from pagan trampling! 48, 67, and even the move of the US embassy to Jerusalem is extremely significant. Clearly, the 2 Witnesses play a role in this too. I just think that biblically, Jerusalem is not fully liberated until Messiah comes.
    Why do you believe the trampling ends then? Is that what scripture says?
    Nope, scripture shows that UNLESS Israel says "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" THEN Jesus will NOT return.
    There is a REQUIREMENT in scripture for Revival to happen among those of Israel.
    The present day Jerusalem will be destroyed by the Beast, it will not be liberated as such. However when Jesus comes will be the NJ and then will be TRUE liberation.

    The sequence of Paul's reference to Israel's acceptance, with respect to Christ's 2nd Coming, is simply a logical progression--not a chronology. I think it is simply logical to posit that Israel must embrace their Messiah when he comes.
    It is a logical progression which ALSO speaks of a chronological one. Without the chronological order there is no logical order.

    I rather think that Paul is making these 2 elements coincidental, the end of the partial hardening and the end of the times of the Gentiles, who oppress Jerusalem.
    Do you believe in coincidences? Especially when scripture states they will occur together?
    Paul actually posits that the one happens AFTER the other. IOW there is a DIRECT connection.

    I view the completion of the Gospel testimony to be Jesus' typifying it as a warning to the world before judgment. As Jonah was sent to warn Ninevah before judgment, so Jesus saw his Gospel as a warning to the world before his Kingdom comes, as well as the means to fulfil God's promises to Abraham, to provide "many nations" of faith.
    Sorry, but it isn't about judgement, but then we disagree about Jonah, so why would we agree on this?
    The Gospel is given for SALVATION. Once everyone has the opportunity to be saved, THEN there is no excuse at judgement. SO judgment will follow, but the PRIME purpose is SALVATION as is HIS prime reason for returning.

    I don't see any revival beforehand. But there is that element of the Gospel that is building up the international Church. How many more revivals we see I don't know. There may also be a restoration of Christianity among the Jews in Israel--I don't know? Thanks for your ideas.
    So you don't see 144K of Israel as Revival? You don't see 50% of the people following Christ and being saved as Revival? What constitutes Revival for you?
    All my ideas are based on what scripture states and meets the chronological actions found in them. They may be incorrect, but I don't know of a reason why they should be.

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