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Thread: When Disaster Strikes

  1. #31
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    People are cut off from God in a spiritual sense, but they're not cut off forever until they die in sin, like the "prodigal son".

    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Rom.11:23
    I agree. I was asking why you connected the verse to physical death.


    The same way I see the Revelation of Jesus Christ as not only about his return, but seeing him revealed in the lives of believers and throughout the scriptures. But about the gentiles, even before Jesus was born and therefore without a fuller knowledge of God, no one is without excuse for not knowing God exists (Rom.1:20,10:18) and from here, condemnation is the result of forgetting that.
    I understand no one has excuse.

    Verses found in the all the previous chapters in Romans. Compare Rom.11:7 & 9:30-31
    I am not seeing admonishing the church concerning curses here.

    I have no problem with it either. To me when Paul teaches about the law, he's really only using it in the sense of what affects our conscience. The law is holy and good, but at the same time it condemns us.
    The Law only condemns those who are not under Grace through Faith in Christ.

    We can also use the plagues on Egypt as an example. We can say God brought plagues on them, while they brought them on themselves. Both are true and I believe thehardening of Pharaohs heart should be interpreted the same way.
    Do you believe this same kind of manner of judgement from God (Would not have happened if Pharaoh had let His people go) is happening today when a disaster arises--Let me give an example: In the O.T. Prophets and Judges were used to warn and admonish God's people, and bring judgment at times. Moses was a mouthpiece for God. Do you believe God still works in this manner today? I do not.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  2. #32

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I agree. I was asking why you connected the verse to physical death.
    Because the bottom line of being cut off is that there is no place for repentance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I understand no one has excuse.
    I believe God shows mercy to all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I am not seeing admonishing the church concerning curses here.
    He's referring to them by quoting Moses. Rom.11:8 = Deut.29:4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    The Law only condemns those who are not under Grace through Faith in Christ.
    Like those who fell in the wilderness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Do you believe this same kind of manner of judgement from God (Would not have happened if Pharaoh had let His people go) is happening today when a disaster arises--Let me give an example: In the O.T. Prophets and Judges were used to warn and admonish God's people, and bring judgment at times. Moses was a mouthpiece for God. Do you believe God still works in this manner today? I do not.
    I believe today we tell people about Jesus so they won't be condemned. But if you're asking if I believe God controls the weather today, yes, I do believe that.

  3. #33
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes


    I believe today we tell people about Jesus so they won't be condemned. But if you're asking if I believe God controls the weather today, yes, I do believe that.
    I was asking what I asked.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  4. #34

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I was asking what I asked.
    Yes, I believe God does what he has always done. I believe Jesus protects us whether our flesh is destroyed in a catastrophe or old age.

  5. #35
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Yes, I believe God does what he has always done. I believe Jesus protects us whether our flesh is destroyed in a catastrophe or old age.
    I believe we are under Grace, and because of that, until the time of judgment comes when Christ returns, God deals with us through His Son who He poured out His wrath upon for all sin.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  6. #36

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I believe we are under Grace, and because of that, until the time of judgment comes when Christ returns, God deals with us through His Son who He poured out His wrath upon for all sin.
    I believe were under grace also, being dealt with by God through Jesus forevermore. I don't believe God poured his wrath out on Jesus, but I do believe he allowed Jesus to suffer the wrath of unrighteous men for all sinners.

  7. #37
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I believe were under grace also, being dealt with by God through Jesus forevermore. I don't believe God poured his wrath out on Jesus, but I do believe he allowed Jesus to suffer the wrath of unrighteous men for all sinners.
    Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

    God wasn't angry with Jesus--as He was never angry with any lamb sacrificed as atonement for sin in the O.T.
    We need never fear God's wrath if we understand and believe in Faith in His sacrifice toward us for our sin--His spotless, sinless perfection.
    I believe in The Trinity. God suffered for the sin of man--Jesus and God as Father and The Holy Spirit..
    Wrath being mistaken for some anger lashed out upon one so that in an instance of darting out blindly is not really enough to signify that God loves his creation. We are justified because Jesus laid His life down, washed us clean by His blood--- (the suffering) and, because He was God and bore the sins of the world.
    God's wrath toward sin was satisfied----- we don't deserve this.

    All anyone need do.....is to come to Him.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  8. #38
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    I found it very difficult to trust a god who would abuse and destroy an innocent man who was maintaining His love for people. I see in the Bible that Jesus suffered at the hands of the ones He came to save, and the Gospel accounts reveal a sick humanity making a travesty of justice. God does not behave that way. This was the “hour of darkness’ reign.” Jesus maintained God’s love toward us, all the while taking the worst from us, and scorned the shame rightly due us, because He had better for us. I posit that when Jesus cried “why hast Thou forsaken me”, never was the Father’s love for the Son stronger, because He was stalwart in the face of the hell that we deserved, because He carried us, who do not handle the divine well at all. God’s wrath, I believe, was propitiated by something stronger than anger. And Jesus died so that our sin and the law it ruined would die with him. He rose again because His love never died. A New Creation walks with a living Person by the Spirit, and does not need to rely on forensics.

  9. #39

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

    God wasn't angry with Jesus--as He was never angry with any lamb sacrificed as atonement for sin in the O.T.
    We need never fear God's wrath if we understand and believe in Faith in His sacrifice toward us for our sin--His spotless, sinless perfection.
    I believe in The Trinity. God suffered for the sin of man--Jesus and God as Father and The Holy Spirit..
    Wrath being mistaken for some anger lashed out upon one so that in an instance of darting out blindly is not really enough to signify that God loves his creation. We are justified because Jesus laid His life down, washed us clean by His blood--- (the suffering) and, because He was God and bore the sins of the world.
    God's wrath toward sin was satisfied----- we don't deserve this.

    All anyone need do.....is to come to Him.
    Yes, coming to God by faith in Jesus is what saves us from the wrath of God. To me, Rom.5:9 is teaching us just that, because God's wrath is for the ungodly, who don't believe in Jesus.

    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

    The wrath of God is on the disobedient. This in itself shows us that Jesus would never have his fathers wrath on him.

    For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience. Col.3:6

    I also think the "sins of the world" Jesus took on himself refers to unrighteousness heaped on him during his ministry, which are germane to mankind.

  10. #40

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcwood View Post
    I found it very difficult to trust a god who would abuse and destroy an innocent man who was maintaining His love for people. I see in the Bible that Jesus suffered at the hands of the ones He came to save, and the Gospel accounts reveal a sick humanity making a travesty of justice. God does not behave that way.
    I agree with this 100%.

  11. #41
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcwood View Post
    I found it very difficult to trust a god who would abuse and destroy an innocent man who was maintaining His love for people. I see in the Bible that Jesus suffered at the hands of the ones He came to save, and the Gospel accounts reveal a sick humanity making a travesty of justice. God does not behave that way. This was the “hour of darkness’ reign.” Jesus maintained God’s love toward us, all the while taking the worst from us, and scorned the shame rightly due us, because He had better for us. I posit that when Jesus cried “why hast Thou forsaken me”, never was the Father’s love for the Son stronger, because He was stalwart in the face of the hell that we deserved, because He carried us, who do not handle the divine well at all. God’s wrath, I believe, was propitiated by something stronger than anger. And Jesus died so that our sin and the law it ruined would die with him. He rose again because His love never died. A New Creation walks with a living Person by the Spirit, and does not need to rely on forensics.
    Just wrath.

    Do I understand that you disagree that Christ suffered the just wrath of God toward our sin?
    Even Jesus said forgive them they know not what they do.
    I agree Christ suffered at our hands, but did He not also suffer for our sins?
    This was planned from the foundation, it was God's plan of redemption-- We could not do it. We can kill but we cannot justify ourselves.

    A price must be paid for sin--
    Death is the just punishment for anyone's sin. So Jesus died in our stead.
    Without the atonement of Jesus blood by faith, which satisfied the sin debt once and for all, leaving us now justified through faith in Him.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  12. #42

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Calamity can be both correction and punishment from God. Look at Luke 13. In it Jesus is told of an atrocity in which some men were killed in a temple in Galilee by Roman soldiers. He makes no comment about those who did the atrocity, but instead commented about those who were killed, he said, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?" In other words he is addressing the sins of the victims, not the murderers. He went on to say the victims were no worse sinners than anyone else, then warned, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
    Jesus then added a contemporary calamity in Jerusalem which caused 18 deaths. "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
    Jesus states clearly that people die because they sin, and their sins don't have to be particularly severe.
    Paul mentions discipline and correction from God in 1 Corinthians 11:29, when talking about members of the Corinth church who take the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner: "29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].
    So, repent, don't sin, or you could be disciplined by God.

  13. #43
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Calamity can be both correction and punishment from God. Look at Luke 13. In it Jesus is told of an atrocity in which some men were killed in a temple in Galilee by Roman soldiers. He makes no comment about those who did the atrocity, but instead commented about those who were killed, he said, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way?" In other words he is addressing the sins of the victims, not the murderers. He went on to say the victims were no worse sinners than anyone else, then warned, "But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
    Jesus then added a contemporary calamity in Jerusalem which caused 18 deaths. "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
    Jesus states clearly that people die because they sin, and their sins don't have to be particularly severe.
    Paul mentions discipline and correction from God in 1 Corinthians 11:29, when talking about members of the Corinth church who take the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner: "29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].
    So, repent, don't sin, or you could be disciplined by God.
    What is the context of 1 Corinthians 11.29.

    V 27- 32
    Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
    Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
    For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
    That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
    But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged.
    But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

    The Corinthians during a time of the Lord's supper as a church together for remembrance of Him were having what some made into a feast, eating to fill their own bellies and partying, even getting drunk..while others who were thinking of Christ went hungry.
    These were living in the flesh and there are consequences to that and God allows this. We all have cause and effect. We can call it God's discipline due to His mercy for us, but we often bring on our own troubles.
    Paul is admonishing the Corinthians to look at themselves and repent, teaching, persuading: God uses him because God loves the Church.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


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