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Thread: When Disaster Strikes

  1. #16
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I keep my answers short with people who seem to know the bible well enough to know what I'm talking about.

    How much explanation is needed to understand that death is abolished after believers are glorified?
    That's just it. This is why scripture and explanation is needed in a rebuttal. Let us examine your present statements. Is death abolished when the saints are glorified? NO! It is abolished 1,000 years later when the "REST of the dead rise" (Revelation Chapter 20)

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    How much explanation is needed to understand that Jesus looked at the state people are in from a spiritual perspective?
    Our Lord does look at people's spiritual condition, but we were talking of resurrection. He wept when Lazarus was dead. That is looking on his PHYSICAL condition and the physical condition of his relations who were weeping.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    How much explanation is needed to understand both believers and unbelievers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ?
    Close, but not quite. The Church stands before the "BEMA" (Gk.), a traveling throne (Rom.14.10; 2nd Cor.5:10). The nation of Israel and the nations stand before the "THRONOS" (Gk.), a fixed throne on earth (Matt.25:31; Rev.20:11).

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    How much explanation is needed to understand the glory of gentiles is the work of God through Christ building his own kingdom?
    No. It is the, "... glory and honour OF the nations ... ." (Revelation 21:26), NOT the "glory and honor OF Christ".

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    It seems to me you're well aware of these things, but ignore them when it comes to how people are made alive and when the final judgment occurs. We can go through these points one by one.

    The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26

    When death is destroyed, there are no more enemies afterward.

    So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:54
    I am aware of these things, but if you rebut, you should produce a counter argument AND the verses you think prove your point. That was my point. Of course, I uphold your right to write how and what on this Forum, but in normal circumstances, especially when others, and younger, inexperienced Christians, are reading it, you would produce an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    When believers are transformed to immortality, there are no more enemies after this. There is no 1000 year long period which is followed by more enemies.
    As long as ONE man is still dead, Christian, Jew or Gentile, the enemy of death is around. From Cain onward to the last man killed in the Magog rebellion, the BULK of the world's population is DEAD and needs to be resurrected. Otherwise, death reigns on. And so at the White Throne, 1,000 years after Christ's return, and OUR resurrection, the "REST OF THE DEAD are raised".

  2. #17

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    God can do what He wants with the weather but mankind were also given the authority to be stewards of the earth.
    I do not believe God uses a tornado to wipe out sinners.
    I do believe this, but as I said in the op, God also uses disaster to draw people closer to him. It's also very important to remember that no matter what happens to believers in this world, death, no matter how it occurs, is not the end of our lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    He CAN but if He wanted everyone to know it was by His hand, that would be completely obvious, to everyone.
    I say this because let us say, someone is planning evil (like setting fire to some field or home) and God allows the rain to come (which would be a good thing to those who were being attacked by some evil) He might be glorified. He would be praised if those that were under the attack had prayed for deliverance..or even if not because He wanted to save them???
    Salvation, or being saved, doesn't mean the preservation of corruptible flesh. If it did, God wouldn't allow anything in this world to harm us in a physical sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    (IMO the earth and it's manners that are glorious are also fallen due to man's sin, no one knows to what extent earths natural manner was changed in anyway-- I know the earth groans for the redmetion)
    So.... no need to blame God for calamity coming from natural disasters, unless like I stated, the natural disaster specifically laid claim to complete evil and it was so obvious and isolated, there would be no doubt it was Him that was taking the time to nip evil in the bud.
    God doesn't need to specify why every "natural" disaster occurs. The bible shows why God causes them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    We don't get to decide that people are being punished by natural disasters...
    I agree and our brother Job is a good example of this. Of course, it was the devil who wanted Job doubt that if God really loved him, he wouldn't allow Job to ever suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    IMO it is up to us to do what we can to offer service and sanctuary to the suffering.
    I agree.

  3. #18

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    That's just it. This is why scripture and explanation is needed in a rebuttal. Let us examine your present statements. Is death abolished when the saints are glorified? NO! It is abolished 1,000 years later when the "REST of the dead rise" (Revelation Chapter 20)
    Paul said death is abolished when the saints are glorified. He's quoting Isaiah 25:8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Our Lord does look at people's spiritual condition, but we were talking of resurrection. He wept when Lazarus was dead. That is looking on his PHYSICAL condition and the physical condition of his relations who were weeping.
    Jesus wasn't weeping over Lazarus's physical condition, but over peoples lack of faith in the face of death. In fact, when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he waited two days before going see him and then referred to his death as only sleeping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Close, but not quite. The Church stands before the "BEMA" (Gk.), a traveling throne (Rom.14.10; 2nd Cor.5:10). The nation of Israel and the nations stand before the "THRONOS" (Gk.), a fixed throne on earth (Matt.25:31; Rev.20:11).
    At the judgment seat of Christ, Paul says,

    For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom.14:11

    He's quoting Isaiah 45:23, where God is going to judge the world (Isaiah 45:22).

    Paul also says,

    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Cor.5:11

    Paul didn't mean the apostles were only persuading the church. He meant unbelievers are going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No. It is the, "... glory and honour OF the nations ... ." (Revelation 21:26), NOT the "glory and honor OF Christ".
    We have no glory apart from Christ. See Jer.9:23-24. The"nations" (gentile believers...we) aren't bringing any glory of our own into the kingdom of God. We're bringing the work Christ did in us into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I am aware of these things, but if you rebut, you should produce a counter argument AND the verses you think prove your point. That was my point. Of course, I uphold your right to write how and what on this Forum, but in normal circumstances, especially when others, and younger, inexperienced Christians, are reading it, you would produce an argument.
    For the sake of younger Christians you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As long as ONE man is still dead, Christian, Jew or Gentile, the enemy of death is around. From Cain onward to the last man killed in the Magog rebellion, the BULK of the world's population is DEAD and needs to be resurrected. Otherwise, death reigns on. And so at the White Throne, 1,000 years after Christ's return, and OUR resurrection, the "REST OF THE DEAD are raised".
    Or, he means the bodily resurrection of all humanity occurs at once, which manifests the tranformation of believers in the sight of unbelievers.

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom 2Tim.4:1

  4. #19
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Matthew 5:45 (AV): for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Take sun and rain and out an substitute hurricane or tornado or earthquake.
    I challenge the idea that sun and rain denote anything but good in Matthew 5:45.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  5. #20
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Paul said death is abolished when the saints are glorified. He's quoting Isaiah 25:8.

    You again did not address my argument that death as an enemy is defeated only when the last man is resurrected. You referred back to Israel's restoration where death is swallowed in victory FOR ISRAEL. See Daniel 12:2 as well. Israel, belonging to the Lord, are resurrected "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). But, "... the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ... ." (Revelation 20:5)

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Jesus wasn't weeping over Lazarus's physical condition, but over peoples lack of faith in the face of death. In fact, when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he waited two days before going see him and then referred to his death as only sleeping.
    The text is John 11:33-35;

    33 "When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
    34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
    35 Jesus wept."


    To me, it is plain to see that our Lord Jesus did not weep at the spectators' attitude. He GROANED IN THE SPIRIT. It was only after he addressed the dead Lazarus that He wept.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    At the judgment seat of Christ, Paul says,

    For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom.14:11

    He's quoting Isaiah 45:23, where God is going to judge the world (Isaiah 45:22).

    Paul also says,

    Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men 2Cor.5:11

    Paul didn't mean the apostles were only persuading the church. He meant unbelievers are going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    Again you ducked the argument - the difference between the "Bema" and the "Thronos" and who is present at each. But I will answer your argument.

    The whole text is in Romans 14:8-13;

    8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."


    It cannot be plainer from the grammar that Paul addresses THE CHURCH ONLY. The Book is aimed at, "... all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: ... ." (Romans 1:7). So also with 2nd Corinthians 5:10. The Book and immediate context concern CHRISTIANS.

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    We have no glory apart from Christ. See Jer.9:23-24. The"nations" (gentile believers...we) aren't bringing any glory of our own into the kingdom of God. We're bringing the work Christ did in us into it.
    Methinks you have problem with plain English. When the Holy Spirit states that the glory IS OF something or somebody, it is their produced glory. In Matthew 6:29, "And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these", whose glory was it? God's glory? I think not! Why then is God's glory less than that of the lilies? No. It is Solomon's glory - NOT GOD'S. Strong and Vine both give the meaning of "GLORY" as;

    "an opinion, estimation, repute; an appearance commanding respect, a state as commanding recognition". (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Or, he means the bodily resurrection of all humanity occurs at once, which manifests the tranformation of believers in the sight of unbelievers.

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom 2Tim.4:1
    The context of 2 Timothy 4:1 begins in 3:10-17. This is plain to see by the word "therefore" in 4:1. 4:1 is the CONCLUSION of what went before. This is what went before;
    3:10 But thou (Timothy - a Christian) hast fully known my doctrine,
    3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    3:14 But continue thou (Timothy - a Christian) in the things ...
    3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    It is clear that the "quick and the dead" of 2nd Timothy 4:1 ARE CHRISTIANS. At the Second Coming of Christ, the Christians are divided into TWO groups.
    1. Those who have fallen asleep and are dead (1st Thess.4:16)
    2. Those who "are alive and remain" (1st Thess.4:17)

    So we have the "quick and the dead", who, according to multiple indications of the preceding text ARE CHRISTIANS. But what seals it is that they are judged "at His Kingdom". That is, AT the beginning of the Millennium. The NATIONS who are alive at His Kingdom are judged "at His Kingdom" (Matt.25:31-46), BUT THE "DEAD" ARE ONLY JUDGED 1,000 YEARS AFTER THE KINGDOM HAS BEEN INAUGURATED. So besides the context, it is clear from this second proof that the "quick and the dead" MUST BE Christians only.

  6. #21
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I challenge the idea that sun and rain denote anything but good in Matthew 5:45.
    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I do believe this, but as I said in the op, God also uses disaster to draw people closer to him. It's also very important to remember that no matter what happens to believers in this world, death, no matter how it occurs, is not the end of our lives.
    What specifically does God do as far as drawing people closer to Him through disaster? It seems easy to say, God uses bad to bring good-- without giving more information about what that means?

    Are there scriptures that can define this for us?

    I believe that God can be glorified through disasters and would say this (myself) rather than God uses disaster as some opportunity to draw people?


    Salvation, or being saved, doesn't mean the preservation of corruptible flesh. If it did, God wouldn't allow anything in this world to harm us in a physical sense.
    Salvation in the spiritual sense is different than physical protection. After I came to believe I looked back at my life and could see God's hand in my life that included by His grace and mercy His protection from physical harm. (at times) and of course I remained physically alive in body long enough to believe in Him. That truly is mercy and Grace---
    God doesn't need to specify why every "natural" disaster occurs. The bible shows why God causes them.
    What scripture passages show that and why God causes natural disasters? (If Isaiah 45 is the point of reference) I believe I can give reasons why even though God does not change, the manner He deals with us does-- IE: We are now under a New Covenant.
    I agree and our brother Job is a good example of this. Of course, it was the devil who wanted Job doubt that if God really loved him, he wouldn't allow Job to ever suffer.
    (IMO) there is vast a difference between God allowing suffering and causing it Himself.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  7. #22

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You again did not address my argument that death as an enemy is defeated only when the last man is resurrected.
    That's what John said. Paul says when the saints are glorified. The two events are simultaneous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You referred back to Israel's restoration where death is swallowed in victory FOR ISRAEL.
    Paul quoted it to include NT saints. When death is swallowed up in victory for Israel, there are no more enemies for Israel. No Satan, no Gog, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    See Daniel 12:2 as well.
    Many will enter God's kingdom and many won't when the book of life is examined (Dan.12:1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Israel, belonging to the Lord, are resurrected "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). But, "... the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ... ." (Revelation 20:5)
    When he comes, all are raised bodily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The text is John 11:33-35;

    33 "When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled,
    34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
    35 Jesus wept."


    To me, it is plain to see that our Lord Jesus did not weep at the spectators' attitude. He GROANED IN THE SPIRIT. It was only after he addressed the dead Lazarus that He wept.
    Ask yourself, if you had the power to raise a dead man, would you be crying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Again you ducked the argument - the difference between the "Bema" and the "Thronos" and who is present at each. But I will answer your argument.

    The whole text is in Romans 14:8-13;

    8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."


    It cannot be plainer from the grammar that Paul addresses THE CHURCH ONLY. The Book is aimed at, "... all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: ... ." (Romans 1:7). So also with 2nd Corinthians 5:10. The Book and immediate context concern CHRISTIANS.
    The concern was to refrain from putting believers under the law, which will condemn them at the judgment seat of Christ.

    And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom.14:23

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Methinks you have problem with plain English. When the Holy Spirit states that the glory IS OF something or somebody, it is their produced glory. In Matthew 6:29, "And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these", whose glory was it? God's glory? I think not! Why then is God's glory less than that of the lilies? No. It is Solomon's glory - NOT GOD'S. Strong and Vine both give the meaning of "GLORY" as;

    "an opinion, estimation, repute; an appearance commanding respect, a state as commanding recognition". (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)
    I don't have a problem with English, but with the pride of man. Solomon knew God clothed both him and the flowers of the field. Any glory we bring to the kingdom is by the work God did in us.

    For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1Cor.4:7


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The context of 2 Timothy 4:1 begins in 3:10-17. This is plain to see by the word "therefore" in 4:1. 4:1 is the CONCLUSION of what went before. This is what went before;
    3:10 But thou (Timothy - a Christian) hast fully known my doctrine,
    3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    3:14 But continue thou (Timothy - a Christian) in the things ...
    3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    It is clear that the "quick and the dead" of 2nd Timothy 4:1 ARE CHRISTIANS. At the Second Coming of Christ, the Christians are divided into TWO groups.
    1. Those who have fallen asleep and are dead (1st Thess.4:16)
    2. Those who "are alive and remain" (1st Thess.4:17)

    So we have the "quick and the dead", who, according to multiple indications of the preceding text ARE CHRISTIANS. But what seals it is that they are judged "at His Kingdom". That is, AT the beginning of the Millennium. The NATIONS who are alive at His Kingdom are judged "at His Kingdom" (Matt.25:31-46), BUT THE "DEAD" ARE ONLY JUDGED 1,000 YEARS AFTER THE KINGDOM HAS BEEN INAUGURATED. So besides the context, it is clear from this second proof that the "quick and the dead" MUST BE Christians only.
    You left out 2Tim.3:1-9, where the folly of the ungodly will also be made manifest...at the judgment seat of Christ.

    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Jn.5:22

  8. #23
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    That's what John said. Paul says when the saints are glorified. The two events are simultaneous.


    Paul quoted it to include NT saints. When death is swallowed up in victory for Israel, there are no more enemies for Israel. No Satan, no Gog, etc.


    Many will enter God's kingdom and many won't when the book of life is examined (Dan.12:1)


    When he comes, all are raised bodily.


    Ask yourself, if you had the power to raise a dead man, would you be crying?


    The concern was to refrain from putting believers under the law, which will condemn them at the judgment seat of Christ.

    And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom.14:23


    I don't have a problem with English, but with the pride of man. Solomon knew God clothed both him and the flowers of the field. Any glory we bring to the kingdom is by the work God did in us.

    For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1Cor.4:7



    You left out 2Tim.3:1-9, where the folly of the ungodly will also be made manifest...at the judgment seat of Christ.

    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Jn.5:22
    Thank you for your answer. I have read it and noted it. Go well bro.

  9. #24

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    What specifically does God do as far as drawing people closer to Him through disaster? It seems easy to say, God uses bad to bring good-- without giving more information about what that means?

    Are there scriptures that can define this for us?

    I believe that God can be glorified through disasters and would say this (myself) rather than God uses disaster as some opportunity to draw people?
    The implication in Rev.9:20-21, 11:13, 16:8-9 is that God sends disaster for the purpose of repentance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Salvation in the spiritual sense is different than physical protection. After I came to believe I looked back at my life and could see God's hand in my life that included by His grace and mercy His protection from physical harm. (at times) and of course I remained physically alive in body long enough to believe in Him. That truly is mercy and Grace---
    I fully agree with you on this as I also look back on my life, but God doesn't always leave people alive. Paul said,

    Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness Rom.11:22

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    What scripture passages show that and why God causes natural disasters? (If Isaiah 45 is the point of reference) I believe I can give reasons why even though God does not change, the manner He deals with us does-- IE: We are now under a New Covenant.
    I did have Isaiah 45 in mind and you're correct it relates to the old covenant, but so does Rom.11:22. I see no reason why Paul would admonish the church concerning the curses of the law, unless they still apply. I believe the problem here is misunderstanding the purpose of the law, which was never to show us how righteous we are, but how unrighteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    (IMO) there is vast a difference between God allowing suffering and causing it Himself.
    The question could be whether God allows or causes suffering, but I think the more important question is why? What's the purpose?

    he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Jb.2:3

    Wasn't there a reason?

  10. #25

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your answer. I have read it and noted it. Go well bro.
    You also. .

  11. #26
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    The implication in Rev.9:20-21, 11:13, 16:8-9 is that God sends disaster for the purpose of repentance.
    Do you believe we are currently in the time of the breaking of the seals, the woes-- (the Judgments of God and His Wrath)?

    I fully agree with you on this as I also look back on my life, but God doesn't always leave people alive. Paul said,

    Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness Rom.11:22
    Those Jews that did not accept Christ as Messiah become cut off branches and gentiles were grafted in branches so to make Israel jealous and return!
    This wasn't about physical death.

    I did have Isaiah 45 in mind and you're correct it relates to the old covenant, but so does Rom.11:22.
    If the Jews had not trespassed (through unbelief) the Gentiles would not have been given the opportunity To believe and come to Faith in Jesus. How are you seeing Old Covenant in Romans 11:22?


    I see no reason why Paul would admonish the church concerning the curses of the law, unless they still apply. I believe the problem here is misunderstanding the purpose of the law, which was never to show us how righteous we are, but how unrighteous.
    What scriptures are you thinking of where Paul is admonishing the church concerning curses of the law?
    I have no problem with the law bringing sinners to repentance-- we are under the Law if we do not believe in Jesus who has fulfilled the Law, and the Prophets.


    The question could be whether God allows or causes suffering, but I think the more important question is why? What's the purpose?
    Considering I do not believe God specifically causes suffering today (because we have the ability to cause our own without His help) and God putting Job to task by allowing Satan to inflict him to show His own glory falls along those same lines-- God allowed it.


    Wasn't there a reason?
    Job did not curse God-- So God won.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  12. #27

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Do you believe we are currently in the time of the breaking of the seals, the woes-- (the Judgments of God and His Wrath)?
    I don't know. I think the scroll is the Book of Revelation and the breaking of the seals by Jesus is the opening of it. The judgments aren't the seals. They don't occur when the seals are opened. They're only seen as the book is opened. For instance, the 4 horsemen don't begin doing things when the seals are removed. They represent war, famine, things which have existed throughout history. In one of the OT books, they're spirits. Jesus says we needn't be alarmed by them. Ill have to get to the rest of your post later.

  13. #28
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    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I don't know. I think the scroll is the Book of Revelation and the breaking of the seals by Jesus is the opening of it. The judgments aren't the seals. They don't occur when the seals are opened. They're only seen as the book is opened. For instance, the 4 horsemen don't begin doing things when the seals are removed. They represent war, famine, things which have existed throughout history. In one of the OT books, they're spirits. Jesus says we needn't be alarmed by them. Ill have to get to the rest of your post later.

    Well the main point of my question stemmed from how God has specifically dealt with people through earthquakes or flood waters or fire--
    In the O.T. there were specific times when plagues, and disasters were judgments. It seems as if this is also an End Time Wrath of God commonality--

    In the N.T. God caused an earthquake that released Paul from Prison--- that is super cool. He can do whatever He wants....that was an awesome use of natural phenomenon.
    Over time I have had to see God as good and practice this very purposeful image of loving creator-- full of Mercy and Grace to overcome the God that brings judgment wrath. I truly believe that the New Covenant is better-- He says it is. I know End times judgments will come as well.

    I prayed for God to stay the hurricane-- to dismantle it or reduce it. It was still very large, but maybe it did not hit as hard as it could have. I prayed for Him to keep my trees from falling on the house or car, and no trees fell. He knows I would have had no where to go-- Have a broken foot, can't run but ultimately He is in control...my life is in His hands, that and everything that concerns me.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  14. #29

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Those Jews that did not accept Christ as Messiah become cut off branches and gentiles were grafted in branches so to make Israel jealous and return!
    This wasn't about physical death.
    People are cut off from God in a spiritual sense, but they're not cut off forever until they die in sin, like the "prodigal son".

    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Rom.11:23

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    If the Jews had not trespassed (through unbelief) the Gentiles would not have been given the opportunity To believe and come to Faith in Jesus. How are you seeing Old Covenant in Romans 11:22?
    The same way I see the Revelation of Jesus Christ as not only about his return, but seeing him revealed in the lives of believers and throughout the scriptures. But about the gentiles, even before Jesus was born and therefore without a fuller knowledge of God, no one is without excuse for not knowing God exists (Rom.1:20,10:18) and from here, condemnation is the result of forgetting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    What scriptures are you thinking of where Paul is admonishing the church concerning curses of the law?
    Verses found in the all the previous chapters in Romans. Compare Rom.11:7 & 9:30-31

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I have no problem with the law bringing sinners to repentance-- we are under the Law if we do not believe in Jesus who has fulfilled the Law, and the Prophets.
    I have no problem with it either. To me when Paul teaches about the law, he's really only using it in the sense of what affects our conscience. The law is holy and good, but at the same time it condemns us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Considering I do not believe God specifically causes suffering today (because we have the ability to cause our own without His help) and God putting Job to task by allowing Satan to inflict him to show His own glory falls along those same lines-- God allowed it.
    We can also use the plagues on Egypt as an example. We can say God brought plagues on them, while they brought them on themselves. Both are true and I believe thehardening of Pharaohs heart should be interpreted the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Job did not curse God-- So God won.
    Yes, it was a test from God.

  15. #30

    Re: When Disaster Strikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Well the main point of my question stemmed from how God has specifically dealt with people through earthquakes or flood waters or fire--
    In the O.T. there were specific times when plagues, and disasters were judgments. It seems as if this is also an End Time Wrath of God commonality--

    In the N.T. God caused an earthquake that released Paul from Prison--- that is super cool. He can do whatever He wants....that was an awesome use of natural phenomenon.
    Over time I have had to see God as good and practice this very purposeful image of loving creator-- full of Mercy and Grace to overcome the God that brings judgment wrath. I truly believe that the New Covenant is better-- He says it is. I know End times judgments will come as well.

    I prayed for God to stay the hurricane-- to dismantle it or reduce it. It was still very large, but maybe it did not hit as hard as it could have. I prayed for Him to keep my trees from falling on the house or car, and no trees fell. He knows I would have had no where to go-- Have a broken foot, can't run but ultimately He is in control...my life is in His hands, that and everything that concerns me.
    I truly believe your prayers along with others slowed that hurricane down.

    But as for how God deals through disaster and the commonality you mentioned, they're for us to trust God no matter what happens to us. The new is superior to the old in that Jesus confirmed beyond doubt that he is trustworthy, more so than any miracle before.

    God is merciful. How about people who perished in Noahs flood? I believe there were innocent children who drowned, but that isn't their final end and that's the point, trusting God through anything.

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