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Thread: new theory re: the "7th king"

  1. #16
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    The early church believed the Roman Empire was the 4th beast of Daniel, (the 6th king of Revelation) and would be divided into 10 kingdoms. For example Hippolytus said:
    “A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass.” And who are these but the Romans? - the kingdom which is now established ... After this, what remains, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together? And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them."
    (Hippolytus (170–235 AD)

    If you were saying that Rome fractured into 10 kingdoms, Byzantium eventually becoming one of the 10, we would find 10 kingdoms emerging inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire. I could agree with that. But to say that East Rome is actually the 7th Empire, creates problems from what I can see. Have you any suggestions who the 10 might be? Have you any suggestions who the 3 that get destroyed might be?
    Yes, I have thoughts about who the 10 are--but not the 3 that are defeated, when the Antichrist takes power. The 10 are 5 in W. Europe and 5 in E. Europe. The W. European States are largely Germanic, whereas the E. European States are largely Slavic. If we look into the history of imperial power in Europe there are only so many countries that obtained imperial status. A few of them in the West may be Italy, France, Germany, Great Britain, and Spain. In the East there are Russia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, and Greece.

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Of course. All prophets are saints...except the bad ones!
    who are the bad saints?

    would that be the mysterious 'trib saints' (who don't have the holy spirit in them)?; or the equally myserious 'mill saints' (who escape the unescapable and cannot die)?

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    who are the bad saints?

    would that be the mysterious 'trib saints' (who don't have the holy spirit in them)?; or the equally myserious 'mill saints' (who escape the unescapable and cannot die)?
    I meant to refer to the "bad" prophets--the "false prophets."

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Of course. All prophets are saints...except the bad ones!
    Do you mean just the N.T. prophets?

    Pretty interesting about Johnthe baptis eh?

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Randy, Durban.

    Im just getting out of my historicist mindset and into your futurist mindset. OK, I understand now, but got a few more questions:

    Western Rome was destroyed AD 476 and Eastern Rome in AD 1453. So, who/what followed Rome during the last 500 years? Do the prophecies mention a gap between the 7th empire and the 10 kingdoms that arise out of it?
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Do you mean just the N.T. prophets?

    Pretty interesting about Johnthe baptis eh?
    John the Baptist was an OT saint, even though he is used to prepare for the NT Messiah. Since I believe Mystery Babylon was Rome, most of the prophets put to death by Rome would've been NT saints. John the Baptist was, of course, killed by an Edomite, King Herod.

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Randy, Durban.

    Im just getting out of my historicist mindset and into your futurist mindset. OK, I understand now, but got a few more questions:

    Western Rome was destroyed AD 476 and Eastern Rome in AD 1453. So, who/what followed Rome during the last 500 years? Do the prophecies mention a gap between the 7th empire and the 10 kingdoms that arise out of it?
    In my view, the Vatican continued a loose control over western Europe, which continues in the structures and key people currently running the EU.

    In the east, much like when when William of Normandy took over England, it was still regarded as England, because he used the capital city of London and used the administration structures in place. If he ruled England as a province of Normandy, it would no longer be England, but history regards him as the King of England.

    It is the same with Eastern historians, they see the Ottomans as just like William, an outside power who takes over the Byzantium empire, using the same capital and administrative structures, and the same title (Osman 1 took the title Caesar). Osman permanently ruled from Istanbul, unlike William who was back and forth between his roles as King of England and Duke of Normandy. So surely Osman's title as Caesar of Rome (eastern empire) should be as concluded as Williams title of King of England? Unfortunately western historians have no set standard/principles on regarding an empire as continued or new. Yet eastern historians see the continuation of the Roman Empire with the Ottomans. Turkey remains a weaker version of the old empire, but empires rise and fall, and it has not disappeared yet.


    So I see no gap, sure there's a weakened Vatican in 1798, a weakened Ottoman Empire in 1917, but a stronger more powerful Turkey at the end.

    Here is an interesting link: https://www.turkishislamicunion.com/
    Incidentally Jews have a good relationship with this Adnan Oktar who wants a huge Islamic Union He wants to give Jews and Christians a Messiah to bring peace between the 3 Torah based religions. Islam predicts this "Ïsa" or Jesus/Messiah to come, who I would regard as the antichrist.

    Note: Rev 13 predicts that the final beast will resemble a leopard, a strong possibility is that this means the final empire will resemble the geographical extent of Alexander's empire, which would be more the territory of Eastern Rome than Western Rome.

  8. #23

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    John states that the antichrist was in the world at his time but it is also not complete as a person but a spirit.

    1 John 4:1-3
    "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world."

    I know that you know this already LOL but I wanted to back up my beliefs with scriptures

    I see the 7 heads of the beast as the Caesars starting from Julius to Galba. I also see Nero as the 6th who "now is" and Galba the 7th remained just a short while just 7 months. The verse below shows that a part of the beast was "now is" or "one is" in Johns time

    Rev 17:10
    10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

    I see mystery Babylon the great as Jerusalem the great city were also our Lord was crucified

    Rev 11:8
    8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

    Rev 17:18
    18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    God also called His people out from her before 70AD

    Rev 18:4-8
    4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

    [B]“‘Come out of her, my people,’
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
    5

    for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
    6
    Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
    7
    Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
    In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
    I am not a widow;[c]
    I will never mourn.’
    8
    Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
    She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

    Only Israel killed both the prophets & the saints

    Rev 18:20 & 24
    20
    “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”


    24
    In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”


    Matt 23:33-38
    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
    yes the whore is Jerusalem. It is all explained in prophecy. Those visions in revelation don't have symbolic meaning outside of scripture, they have meaning within scripture, the prophets were foretelling all of it all along.

    this may help this is Gods word to,Israel, nearing the end of the first testament and the end of the prophets

    “Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

    I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.


    And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

    Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. And [B]it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord God
    [/B

    Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith. How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

    Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *16:1-2, 8-18, 20-23, 25-26, 28-30, 35-39‬ *KJV‬‬


    when you search the prophets, things really explain themselves


    just some excerpts. You can literally find almost every event explained in the prophets that you find in revelation.

  9. #24

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Here's another example

    “And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

    And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

    Then I saw that she was defiled,
    that they took both one way, And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men portrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans portrayed with vermilion,

    And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea. And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.

    Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

    They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.

    For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated: And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms. I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols. Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand. Thus saith the Lord God; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

    The Lord said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations; That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them. Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *23:4, 11, 13-14, 16-18, 22, 26, 28-33, 36-38‬ *KJV‬‬


    Israel, Judah, Samaria, Jerusalem..... They had the covenant, the law, God chose them. Showed them favor and blessing, made them powerful the crown city . And they turned away, went following other gods of those nations around them, Babylon, Assyria, later Rome, Persia ect. Israel did not hold the covenant worthy, they were unfaithful for centuries.....just exactly like God said they would be, when he told Moses to write the law in a book. Just before Moses death.

    Israel broke the covenant made at horeb. Like a marriage, they continually committed adultery. Made altars all over Israel for other gods, sacrificed children to false gods, followed the moral ways of false gods, perverse ways contrary to Gods law and ways. Many times he refers to Jerusalem his beloved city in the prophets as a whore, a harlot, faithless, says they have broken his covenant, says he has written them a divorce, pronounces judgements upon them and then promises afterward a messiah, a savior.

    the beast Comes up out of the sea. But we understand, it's not the actual sea but the sea of glass before the throne John is looking into. He sees later the sea of glass mixed with the fire cast into the earth from the atonement when the saints are standing upon the sea having overcome the beast. Then in the end......there is no More sea.

    the beast of the sea, comes up bearing the image of the dragon. who was cast from heaven into the earth. Given the understanding that 5 heads of the beast have already come and gone by the time revelation is penned, this would mean then that Satan had been cast out of heaven long before John saw it in the vision. Yet John was seeing it with the great significance it has, to,lead to understanding of things that had not yet taken place.


    what I mean is. Sometimes if I'm telling you what is going to come later......I have to start from a place already passed tense. Or if we're in the middle of a story, and I want to explain the end, I might need to remind you of something in the beginning.....


    revelation should be viewed with a past, present and future view. There are things from the very beginning seen in johns vision, things in the middle and things in the end. It's purpose was to reveal things that would take place. But all of it isn't a future event. Just a thought

  10. #25
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    John the Baptist was an OT saint, even though he is used to prepare for the NT Messiah. Since I believe Mystery Babylon was Rome, most of the prophets put to death by Rome would've been NT saints. John the Baptist was, of course, killed by an Edomite, King Herod.
    But Revelation does state the prophets and the saints as different

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Follower1977 View Post
    yes the whore is Jerusalem. It is all explained in prophecy. Those visions in revelation don't have symbolic meaning outside of scripture, they have meaning within scripture, the prophets were foretelling all of it all along.

    this may help this is Gods word to,Israel, nearing the end of the first testament and the end of the prophets

    “Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

    Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I thoroughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

    I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.


    And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God. But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

    Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. And [B]it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord God
    [/B

    Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied. Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith. How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord God, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

    Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *16:1-2, 8-18, 20-23, 25-26, 28-30, 35-39‬ *KJV‬‬


    when you search the prophets, things really explain themselves


    just some excerpts. You can literally find almost every event explained in the prophets that you find in revelation.
    Agreed thanks Revelation chapter 18 is a sarcastic funeral dredge about Jerusalem as the OT tells us who she is. I wish more people could see this. Why else is a whole chapter in Revelation dedicated to the fall of Babylon the great? Because of who she is and there is more focus on her destruction than there is on the destruction of the beast

  12. #27
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I have thoughts about who the 10 are--but not the 3 that are defeated, when the Antichrist takes power. The 10 are 5 in W. Europe and 5 in E. Europe. The W. European States are largely Germanic, whereas the E. European States are largely Slavic. If we look into the history of imperial power in Europe there are only so many countries that obtained imperial status. A few of them in the West may be Italy, France, Germany, Great Britain, and Spain. In the East there are Russia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, and Greece.
    I know we have discussed this before, but for the benefit of readers of this thread I would like to put forward answers to the 10 and the 3 (referring to the ten horns of Daniel 7)
    We can have a general idea of the ten from the words of Rev 13, the beast shall resemble the leopard. Much of Revelation 13 is referring to Daniel 7, so it is pretty clear that the leopard is Alexander's Empire. Due to the fact that little horns are small countries, big horns are large countries, we know that geographical extent is important in these prophecies, the beast most likely resembling Alexander's empire in geographical extent. Which means the ten are approximately:
    Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan

    Now Daniel 11 says the final ruler will take over the beautiful land before that final war. It says he is the King of the North (Assyrian). Yet Messianic expectation is that any false Messiah would be expected to control the region right to the Euphrates if he is to be believable to deceive Jews, thus Iraq will have to be included. Thus the 3 that fall before the little horn are most likely Israel/Iran/Syria, becoming one large country in the centre of the new Turkish Union Of Ten. Thus the tensions between Israel and Islam will be temporarily solved because of this powerful Messianic figure ruling 3 regions within a larger ten region Islamic Union.

    As Jesus warns in Matthew 24: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’[e] or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs[f] and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.[/B]

    Watch out for men appearing to be anointed Jewish conquerors.

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I know we have discussed this before, but for the benefit of readers of this thread I would like to put forward answers to the 10 and the 3 (referring to the ten horns of Daniel 7)
    We can have a general idea of the ten from the words of Rev 13, the beast shall resemble the leopard. Much of Revelation 13 is referring to Daniel 7, so it is pretty clear that the leopard is Alexander's Empire. Due to the fact that little horns are small countries, big horns are large countries, we know that geographical extent is important in these prophecies, the beast most likely resembling Alexander's empire in geographical extent. Which means the ten are approximately:
    Greece, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan
    The problem with this, for me, is that we don't know if by the use of a "leopard" symbol the reference is to Greece. Even if the "leopard" referred to Greece in Dan 7, we know that the "leopard" symbol could also be applied to any number of countries in the world!

    In the same vein, I don't think the "lion" symbol has one static application to Babylon in the Scriptures. It is identified as such in Dan 7, and yet, the "lion" symbol is also used for other nations, eg Israel.

    For all I know, the "beast" of Rev 13 could use these symbols for completely different reasons, indicating certain characteristics of his empire. The leopard, bear, and lion imagery may reflect not certain geographical areas, but rather, certain attributes of this empire?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Now Daniel 11 says the final ruler will take over the beautiful land before that final war. It says he is the King of the North (Assyrian). Yet Messianic expectation is that any false Messiah would be expected to control the region right to the Euphrates if he is to be believable to deceive Jews, thus Iraq will have to be included. Thus the 3 that fall before the little horn are most likely Israel/Iran/Syria, becoming one large country in the centre of the new Turkish Union Of Ten. Thus the tensions between Israel and Islam will be temporarily solved because of this powerful Messianic figure ruling 3 regions within a larger ten region Islamic Union.

    As Jesus warns in Matthew 24: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah!’[e] or ‘There he is!’—do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs[f] and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.[/B]

    Watch out for men appearing to be anointed Jewish conquerors.
    Since I don't share your interpretation of Dan 11 as a future prophecy, I can't comment on this part. Thanks for sharing, though.

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The problem with this, for me, is that we don't know if by the use of a "leopard" symbol the reference is to Greece. Even if the "leopard" referred to Greece in Dan 7, we know that the "leopard" symbol could also be applied to any number of countries in the world!

    In the same vein, I don't think the "lion" symbol has one static application to Babylon in the Scriptures. It is identified as such in Dan 7, and yet, the "lion" symbol is also used for other nations, eg Israel.

    For all I know, the "beast" of Rev 13 could use these symbols for completely different reasons, indicating certain characteristics of his empire. The leopard, bear, and lion imagery may reflect not certain geographical areas, but rather, certain attributes of this empire?



    Since I don't share your interpretation of Dan 11 as a future prophecy, I can't comment on this part. Thanks for sharing, though.
    Rev 13 for many reasons is an obvious symbolic match with Daniel 7. The leopard is therefore Greece.

    The final beast resembles the leopard and will therefore resemble Alexander's Greek Empire. Can I prove this? No , I believe God puts the obvious in front of us and only the honest accept it at face value. Not saying you are not honest, we all need to grow in our methodology.

    Regarding Daniel 11 , what is your explanation for that final king of the North coming to his end at the time of the resurrection? Surely that places his existence as an end times character?

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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Rev 13 for many reasons is an obvious symbolic match with Daniel 7. The leopard is therefore Greece.
    If it was that obvious, I would agree with you. But it is *not* an obvious match with respect to *identifying the countries* involved. While it is true that the 3 creatures are the exact same from Dan 7 to Rev 13, the *application* is *not* necessarily the same.

    Quite frankly, there are not that many animal predators named in the Scriptures on a consistent basis. Enemy nations are typically referred to in this way, with only limited symbols available. The lion, leopard, and bear are a few of the very real dangers from wildlife to man in biblical times. To just say they have the same application in Daniel's time as they do in the Apostle John's time seems a little irresponsible. I at least leave the question open. I just don't know!

    In some cases, such as in Dan 8, we have a clear identification. But we don't have the same scenario in Rev 13. In fact, there is no explicit theology identifying these animals with nations at all! On the contrary, we have *parts* of these animals all belonging to a single empire! So I reject the idea it is a "settled matter." We aren't dealing with riddles. It would've been a simple matter for the Holy Spirit to just come out and say, unambiguously, that these animals represent different nations. But on the contrary, we are told they are part of a single Beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    The final beast resembles the leopard and will therefore resemble Alexander's Greek Empire. Can I prove this? No , I believe God puts the obvious in front of us and only the honest accept it at face value. Not saying you are not honest, we all need to grow in our methodology.

    Regarding Daniel 11 , what is your explanation for that final king of the North coming to his end at the time of the resurrection? Surely that places his existence as an end times character?
    Yes, I don't think we're dealing with "honesty" here, but with "methodology," as you suggest. My own methodology is something I've been comfortable with for a very long time. And that is accepting *explicit statements* from Scripture, without reading too much into them. If God wants to say something, He doesn't mumble. It doesn't lisp. He doesn't stutter. He says exactly what He wants us to clearly understand and believe.

    Yes, it isn't this simple, so neither will I call you irresponsible for reading too much into this passage. It is a legitimately arguable debate. But we can leave it here, in case others wish to debate the methodologies themselves?

    As to the King of the North in Dan 11, I don't see his death at the time of the resurrection. The time frame is not locked into the time of Antiochus 4. Rather, certain key words or phrases move the narrative along, and jump forward to the "Jewish Hope," which is very common in biblical prophecy. A certain historical event is predicted, and at the end of it the prophecy jumps forward to the conclusion at the end of the age. In other words, the Jewish Hope is always in the backdrop of these prophecies, because they are meant to lead to the culmination of God's promises to Abraham.

    "At that time Michael will arise" is the phrase that indicates a shift in the direction of the Jewish Hope. While the events involving Antiochus are being resolved, the general trouble of that time will indicate that Israel's condition remains bad for the rest of the age. Israel remains essentially under the control of foreign powers, or severely weakened by them, and reaching the final Hope will not be possible without the help of Michael.

    The rise of Michael thus takes place *after* Antiochus 4 and his death. And the indication is that Israel will need his help for the indefinite future until the Jewish Hope, and its resurrection, actually come to be.

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