Page 3 of 26 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 384

Thread: new theory re: the "7th king"

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,413

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If it was that obvious, I would agree with you. But it is *not* an obvious match with respect to *identifying the countries* involved. While it is true that the 3 creatures are the exact same from Dan 7 to Rev 13, the *application* is *not* necessarily the same.

    Quite frankly, there are not that many animal predators named in the Scriptures on a consistent basis. Enemy nations are typically referred to in this way, with only limited symbols available. The lion, leopard, and bear are a few of the very real dangers from wildlife to man in biblical times. To just say they have the same application in Daniel's time as they do in the Apostle John's time seems a little irresponsible. I at least leave the question open. I just don't know!

    In some cases, such as in Dan 8, we have a clear identification. But we don't have the same scenario in Rev 13. In fact, there is no explicit theology identifying these animals with nations at all! On the contrary, we have *parts* of these animals all belonging to a single empire! So I reject the idea it is a "settled matter." We aren't dealing with riddles. It would've been a simple matter for the Holy Spirit to just come out and say, unambiguously, that these animals represent different nations. But on the contrary, we are told they are part of a single Beast.



    Yes, I don't think we're dealing with "honesty" here, but with "methodology," as you suggest. My own methodology is something I've been comfortable with for a very long time. And that is accepting *explicit statements* from Scripture, without reading too much into them. If God wants to say something, He doesn't mumble. It doesn't lisp. He doesn't stutter. He says exactly what He wants us to clearly understand and believe.

    Yes, it isn't this simple, so neither will I call you irresponsible for reading too much into this passage. It is a legitimately arguable debate. But we can leave it here, in case others wish to debate the methodologies themselves?

    As to the King of the North in Dan 11, I don't see his death at the time of the resurrection. The time frame is not locked into the time of Antiochus 4. Rather, certain key words or phrases move the narrative along, and jump forward to the "Jewish Hope," which is very common in biblical prophecy. A certain historical event is predicted, and at the end of it the prophecy jumps forward to the conclusion at the end of the age. In other words, the Jewish Hope is always in the backdrop of these prophecies, because they are meant to lead to the culmination of God's promises to Abraham.

    "At that time Michael will arise" is the phrase that indicates a shift in the direction of the Jewish Hope. While the events involving Antiochus are being resolved, the general trouble of that time will indicate that Israel's condition remains bad for the rest of the age. Israel remains essentially under the control of foreign powers, or severely weakened by them, and reaching the final Hope will not be possible without the help of Michael.

    The rise of Michael thus takes place *after* Antiochus 4 and his death. And the indication is that Israel will need his help for the indefinite future until the Jewish Hope, and its resurrection, actually come to be.
    Rev 13 and Dan 7 mention a bear/lion/leopard/beast with ten horns. And an evil ruler who rules for 3.5 years. The parallels are actually obvious. Of course it's the same ruler, it's the same beast, it's the same ten horns and the same 3.5 years. The other animals are the same too. Yes the other 3 animals appear in Rev 13 in a different manner, but is it so hard to see that the bear Iran and the lion Iraq are now part of the final beast, and this beast resembles Alexander's kingdom? This is not complicated. Symbols are not there ever to be proven, if God wanted clear language He would use such. Instead He often speaks in symbols and parables for only the intended to find the intended meaning.

    As for Daniel 11........let the scriptures speak:
    44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    When...at that time. Who? Another boastful leader? How many do we have? Daniel is full of references to Antiochus and the antichrist, I suggest that only those two can be in mind. Or am I the only one able to see what is obvious? Maybe, I have always had a good head for statistical probability.

  2. #32

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Comparing Revelation 13 and Daniel 7, we see that there are 7 heads (Lion + Bear + Leopard * 4 + 4th beast) and ten horns (10 horns on 4th beast). Persia and Greece are mentioned in Daniel 8, so I think they match the Bear and Leopard. I don't think the 4th beast is Rome because Rome preserved so much of Greek culture.

    Daniel 7:7 ESV After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

    Revelation 17:9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

    I think the 7th head that remains a little while is Medina, which was the capital of the first Islamic caliphate for about 24 years. The capital later moved to places near Babylon (Kufa) or parts of the Greek kingdoms (Syria and northwest Turkey and Egypt). Islam is also divided between Shia and Sunni, and replaced many cultures.

    I would explain the historical gap between the Greek King Cleopatra and 600 AD by pointing out the re-emergence of the Persian empire, which also ruled Babylon for most of that time.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,511

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Rev 13 and Dan 7 mention a bear/lion/leopard/beast with ten horns. And an evil ruler who rules for 3.5 years. The parallels are actually obvious. Of course it's the same ruler, it's the same beast, it's the same ten horns and the same 3.5 years. The other animals are the same too. Yes the other 3 animals appear in Rev 13 in a different manner, but is it so hard to see that the bear Iran and the lion Iraq are now part of the final beast, and this beast resembles Alexander's kingdom? This is not complicated. Symbols are not there ever to be proven, if God wanted clear language He would use such. Instead He often speaks in symbols and parables for only the intended to find the intended meaning.
    The intended recipients of such symbolism are Christians--not an elite number of Christians who find their interpretation superior only because they read their views into the passage better than another. My point is that we shouldn't read our interpretation into the passage at all! If God wanted us to clearly understand, He would've explained.

    What we have in Dan 7 is more clearly explained. It is *not* detailed, as much, in Dan 2 because the kingdoms being predicted had not come yet. So it was future prophecy to recognize the temporalness of Nebuchadnezzar's own kingdom. It also prepared the Hebrews for the continuance of these kinds of pagan kingdoms, so that they are prepared to endure tough times for people of faith.

    The same pattern is shown in Dan 7, where once again, we have the same sequence--4 kingdoms emerging to control the Mediterranean world, in which Israel lived. We know that Babylon was the 1st, because it had already been identified. And we know what succeeded him, because it would be the kingdom that conquers, and immediately follows Babylon, in the Mediterranean region.

    But in Dan 8 these are identified as Persia and Greece. So, we already have, by Dan 7, the interpretation of the lion, the leopard, and the bear. It is just common sense to see Rome as the 4th beast, left unidentified due to its distance into the future.

    The Roman Empire is thus identified, by sequence, in the book of Daniel, and it is portrayed as the last great empire in the Mediterranean before the coming of God's Kingdom. And we do know that Jesus came with his Gospel of the Kingdom, dying and rising from the dead, during the Roman Empire.

    However, the Kingdom was not to come immediately, as even Jesus predicted. The Kingdom would remain "near" in coming. So how was the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire, the "last" kingdom before which the Kingdom of God comes?

    What we have, then, is the book of Revelation, in which the Beast of Rev 13 is explained. By this time we know that the Roman Empire is the 4th kingdom. And we also know who were the previous 3 kingdoms. We know *all* of the 4 kingdoms mentioned in Dan 7! However, the symbolism seems to change in Rev 13, after this prophecy has been fulfilled thus far!

    You're right that some major elements predicted in Dan 7 are also present in Rev 13. We have the 3.5 years of rule by the Antichrist. The Antichrist has 10 kings ruling with him. And the characteristics of the 4 previous beasts are with him.

    But the point is that the 4 previous beasts have *already been fulfilled!* The rise of Antichrist with his 10 nation confederacy has *not* yet been fulfilled! And so, we must see the beast symbolism differently in Rev 13 than how we see it in Dan 7, in my opinion. How can we not, if the 4 beasts have already been fulfilled?

    In Dan 7 the 4 beasts are definitively identified as kingdoms. But once these kingdoms have passed, or been succeeded by the 4th kingdom--the Roman Empire--there is no longer a prophecy for the 4 kingdoms! They've been fulfilled! So all we have left are characteristics that had been present in those former kingdoms now appearing *after their demise.* And it is debatable whether these are just characteristics, geography, or ethnic identification, since nothing is given us to determine this with any certainty.

    I would argue that these are *not* geographical markers, since they had not existed when they were separated into sequential kingdoms. To just add all of their geographical areas together does not fit what is being described. Having a leopard's semblance, a bear's feet, and a lion's mouth does not suggest territories that adjoin. Rather, they suggest characteristics, such as were present in these former kingdoms. It all suggests a dangerous predator on an international scale, in which there is speed, power, and edge. It suggests a world-dominant empire, reflecting back upon the 4 kingdoms which had been imperial powers, or dominant powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    As for Daniel 11........let the scriptures speak:
    44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    When...at that time. Who? Another boastful leader? How many do we have? Daniel is full of references to Antiochus and the antichrist, I suggest that only those two can be in mind. Or am I the only one able to see what is obvious? Maybe, I have always had a good head for statistical probability.
    Either that, or you're way too overconfident! I would suggest that you're failing to see there are legitimate alternatives to your reading. It is the same text, but you appear to bypass the possibility that a long time elapses between Antiochus 4's death and the coming of Christ's Kingdom?

    On what basis do I do this? Is it arbitrary? Does it fit the text? Is it confirmed elsewhere? Yes! The length of time is not determined by the brevity of this account, but rather, by the circumstances that dictate the length of time. Obviously, there is no concern to give a specific length of time, since "times and seasons belong to the Lord."

    So what determines a length of time in this passage? It is the *trouble* that Israel is in, from the time Antiochus 4 dies to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. We are told that Michael must help Israel at this point in her history, and until the end of the age. Is this true? Of course it is! From that time on Israel remained basically a puppet, controlled by pagan powers. Israel's survival was at stake from that time forward.

    After the Babylonian Captivity Israel never did regain her full extent of national power. She was dominated by Persia, Greece, Egypt, Syria, and Rome. And in 70 AD she was thrown back into exile again--the great Jewish Diaspora, which lasts to the present day.

    So this prophecy covers a great extent of time, even though there is no concern for giving a time or length of time. What we do know is that the trouble Israel is in from the time of Antiochus 4 is to continue until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. And we *know* this is a long period of time. So from the death of Antiochus 4 to the coming of Christ's Kingdom is a long time. Just because this passage is brief does not mean it takes place all at the same time!

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,413

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The intended recipients of such symbolism are Christians--not an elite number of Christians who find their interpretation superior only because they read their views into the passage better than another. My point is that we shouldn't read our interpretation into the passage at all! If God wanted us to clearly understand, He would've explained.

    What we have in Dan 7 is more clearly explained. It is *not* detailed, as much, in Dan 2 because the kingdoms being predicted had not come yet. So it was future prophecy to recognize the temporalness of Nebuchadnezzar's own kingdom. It also prepared the Hebrews for the continuance of these kinds of pagan kingdoms, so that they are prepared to endure tough times for people of faith.

    The same pattern is shown in Dan 7, where once again, we have the same sequence--4 kingdoms emerging to control the Mediterranean world, in which Israel lived. We know that Babylon was the 1st, because it had already been identified. And we know what succeeded him, because it would be the kingdom that conquers, and immediately follows Babylon, in the Mediterranean region.

    But in Dan 8 these are identified as Persia and Greece. So, we already have, by Dan 7, the interpretation of the lion, the leopard, and the bear. It is just common sense to see Rome as the 4th beast, left unidentified due to its distance into the future.

    The Roman Empire is thus identified, by sequence, in the book of Daniel, and it is portrayed as the last great empire in the Mediterranean before the coming of God's Kingdom. And we do know that Jesus came with his Gospel of the Kingdom, dying and rising from the dead, during the Roman Empire.

    However, the Kingdom was not to come immediately, as even Jesus predicted. The Kingdom would remain "near" in coming. So how was the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire, the "last" kingdom before which the Kingdom of God comes?

    What we have, then, is the book of Revelation, in which the Beast of Rev 13 is explained. By this time we know that the Roman Empire is the 4th kingdom. And we also know who were the previous 3 kingdoms. We know *all* of the 4 kingdoms mentioned in Dan 7! However, the symbolism seems to change in Rev 13, after this prophecy has been fulfilled thus far!

    You're right that some major elements predicted in Dan 7 are also present in Rev 13. We have the 3.5 years of rule by the Antichrist. The Antichrist has 10 kings ruling with him. And the characteristics of the 4 previous beasts are with him.

    But the point is that the 4 previous beasts have *already been fulfilled!* The rise of Antichrist with his 10 nation confederacy has *not* yet been fulfilled! And so, we must see the beast symbolism differently in Rev 13 than how we see it in Dan 7, in my opinion. How can we not, if the 4 beasts have already been fulfilled?

    In Dan 7 the 4 beasts are definitively identified as kingdoms. But once these kingdoms have passed, or been succeeded by the 4th kingdom--the Roman Empire--there is no longer a prophecy for the 4 kingdoms! They've been fulfilled! So all we have left are characteristics that had been present in those former kingdoms now appearing *after their demise.* And it is debatable whether these are just characteristics, geography, or ethnic identification, since nothing is given us to determine this with any certainty.

    I would argue that these are *not* geographical markers, since they had not existed when they were separated into sequential kingdoms. To just add all of their geographical areas together does not fit what is being described. Having a leopard's semblance, a bear's feet, and a lion's mouth does not suggest territories that adjoin. Rather, they suggest characteristics, such as were present in these former kingdoms. It all suggests a dangerous predator on an international scale, in which there is speed, power, and edge. It suggests a world-dominant empire, reflecting back upon the 4 kingdoms which had been imperial powers, or dominant powers.



    Either that, or you're way too overconfident! I would suggest that you're failing to see there are legitimate alternatives to your reading. It is the same text, but you appear to bypass the possibility that a long time elapses between Antiochus 4's death and the coming of Christ's Kingdom?

    On what basis do I do this? Is it arbitrary? Does it fit the text? Is it confirmed elsewhere? Yes! The length of time is not determined by the brevity of this account, but rather, by the circumstances that dictate the length of time. Obviously, there is no concern to give a specific length of time, since "times and seasons belong to the Lord."

    So what determines a length of time in this passage? It is the *trouble* that Israel is in, from the time Antiochus 4 dies to the coming of Christ's Kingdom. We are told that Michael must help Israel at this point in her history, and until the end of the age. Is this true? Of course it is! From that time on Israel remained basically a puppet, controlled by pagan powers. Israel's survival was at stake from that time forward.

    After the Babylonian Captivity Israel never did regain her full extent of national power. She was dominated by Persia, Greece, Egypt, Syria, and Rome. And in 70 AD she was thrown back into exile again--the great Jewish Diaspora, which lasts to the present day.

    So this prophecy covers a great extent of time, even though there is no concern for giving a time or length of time. What we do know is that the trouble Israel is in from the time of Antiochus 4 is to continue until the coming of Christ's Kingdom. And we *know* this is a long period of time. So from the death of Antiochus 4 to the coming of Christ's Kingdom is a long time. Just because this passage is brief does not mean it takes place all at the same time!
    I do hear you on your alternative views. Sure it is possible to see a variety of views in the apocalyptic language. On the balance of logic, to see actual kingdoms instead of "characteristics" is in my view more in line with the literal nature of the precedent of fulfilled prophecy. And if one sees "at that time" as literal too, it diminishes the likelihood of a long period of distress. But sure other possibilities exist.

    I see a lot of irony in this comment of yours: ""My point is that we shouldn't read our interpretation into the passage at all! If God wanted us to clearly understand, He would've explained.""

    You are both acknowledging that interpretation is unclear and yet advising against us interpreting. Yet we have no further info to gain clarity. I would rather say that the answer is already there, unproven yet obvious enough to the simple among us.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,511

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I do hear you on your alternative views. Sure it is possible to see a variety of views in the apocalyptic language. On the balance of logic, to see actual kingdoms instead of "characteristics" is in my view more in line with the literal nature of the precedent of fulfilled prophecy. And if one sees "at that time" as literal too, it diminishes the likelihood of a long period of distress. But sure other possibilities exist.

    I see a lot of irony in this comment of yours: ""My point is that we shouldn't read our interpretation into the passage at all! If God wanted us to clearly understand, He would've explained.""

    You are both acknowledging that interpretation is unclear and yet advising against us interpreting. Yet we have no further info to gain clarity. I would rather say that the answer is already there, unproven yet obvious enough to the simple among us.
    Yes, I can't say I'm absolutely right, because we are given only so much. But I do consider the possibility that as a faulty human being I may be missing something. So I appreciate any comments on the matter, in the hope God will give me more light. Thank you brother!

    Of course, there is more support for my view of Dan 11-12 from outside of this particular passage. There is the Olivet Discourse, which characterizes this whole period of "trouble" as the "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People. "At that time" is an explicit reference to the time Michael arises, in the period immediately following the death of Antiochus 4.

    It is no coincidence to me that Jesus also describes this period of time as the "Great Tribulation,", when Rome came to dominate the Jews, using the same words that Daniel uses. This indicates it will be a *long time,* only *beginning* in the era after Antiochus 4's death.

    Therefore, this "great tribulation" of the Jewish People is a long time because according to Jesus it lasts from his own time, while the Romans dominated Israel, until the time of the Gentiles ends. This is indeed consistent with the explicit language.

    But yes, it is a matter of how we interpret the passage. This is not an effort, on my part, to "read into" the passage. But it is indeed an interpretation, using the explicit statements according to my views.

    I will quote both passages, and you will be able to see how I believe both sections are related, and time this period of "Great Tribulation" as being from the Roman domination of Israel to the end of the times of the Gentiles.

    Dan 12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    Luke 21.
    20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    Many scholars see Luke 21 as a prophecy of the fall of the temple in 70 AD. Jesus is here saying that "great tribulation" will erupt here, leading to an age-long Diaspora of the Jewish People. The end of this "great distress" will take place at the end of the age, when the Son of Man comes.

    And if you compare this with Dan 12 above, and if you align the two, you can see that I view the "great tribulation" Daniel described as the exact same thing. Following the death of Antiochus 4, a period of trouble begins for the Jewish People, namely the Roman oppression of Israel. This is the 4th Beast of Daniel, more terrible than the rest. And it was under Roman rule that Jerusalem was destroyed, along with its temple. This, for Jesus, was in fact the "great tribulation" being described by Daniel, and Jesus was in fact referencing it indirectly, by using the same exact words! This period of "great tribulation" ends at the coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age. This is just a view you might consider?

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    17,814

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Daniel is full of references to Antiochus
    You had a good post going on there, but you just had to ruin a good thing via what you said here though. But let's not get into that argument again. I was merely pointing out that your post was spot on, well except for this part.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    17,814

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    unproven yet obvious enough to the simple among us.
    You can't get much more simple than me. And a lot of things seem obvious to me, but I don't bring bias to the text in the book of Daniel like many apparently do. Bias such as what past Commentators have concluded about some of these texts.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,413

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You had a good post going on there, but you just had to ruin a good thing via what you said here though. But let's not get into that argument again. I was merely pointing out that your post was spot on, well except for this part.
    Thanks...haha well it's either or

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,511

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You can't get much more simple than me. And a lot of things seem obvious to me, but I don't bring bias to the text in the book of Daniel like many apparently do. Bias such as what past Commentators have concluded about some of these texts.
    The "bias" I see in you, David, is that you don't seriously consider that the "great distress" in Dan 12 and the "great distress" in Luk 21 may be referencing the same exact thing.

    Many here have been reading Dan 12 as if this "great distress" erupts at the end of the age, as viewed in Rev 12, when Michael makes war with Satan. But in my view that is purely the end of this period of distress. As Daniel 11-12 indicates, the "great distress" of Dan 12 takes place immediately after the demise of Antiochus 4. That *must* be during the Roman takeover of the Jewish State, and the subsequent destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    Jesus then describes this "great distress" as the *entire NT era,* in which Jerusalem is trampled by the Gentiles, until "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." In other words, Daniel is not talking about an isolated period of "great distress" that takes place right after Antiochus 4 dies, nor is he talking about the end of the age. Rather, this event is an extended period of time, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the end of the age.

    I know that Dan 12 does not appear to say much about this period of "great distress." But it seems quite biased of you or anybody else who fails to consider the possibility that Daniel was talking about an extended period of time, from 70 AD to the end of the age, since that is exactly how Jesus described it?

    Please tell me you don't enter into this without any bias? If you're truly unbiased, tell me this is a reasonable proposition on my part, whether you agree or not?

  10. #40

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    5 were, 1 is and 1 is yet to come. (Rev 17:10) This scripture is from the point of view of the Whore and is putting her in historical context.
    Daniels prophecies ties into the seven hills of the Whore and the seven headed dragon.
    1)Babylon
    2)Persia
    3)Greece
    4)Rome
    5)Two divisions of Rome - Holy Rome and Byzantine who later became Russia.
    6)Iron and clay - this is post WW I and II in Europe and Middle East. The defeat of emperors and the establishment of statehood.
    7)10 member group, with 3 to have undisputed global dominance. The only group to be in a position for such power is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (S.C.O.), made in part to counteract N.A.T.O. aggression. Remember, prophecy is on a global scale at this stage.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,511

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Free View Post
    5 were, 1 is and 1 is yet to come. (Rev 17:10) This scripture is from the point of view of the Whore and is putting her in historical context.
    Daniels prophecies ties into the seven hills of the Whore and the seven headed dragon.
    1)Babylon
    2)Persia
    3)Greece
    4)Rome
    5)Two divisions of Rome - Holy Rome and Byzantine who later became Russia.
    6)Iron and clay - this is post WW I and II in Europe and Middle East. The defeat of emperors and the establishment of statehood.
    7)10 member group, with 3 to have undisputed global dominance. The only group to be in a position for such power is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (S.C.O.), made in part to counteract N.A.T.O. aggression. Remember, prophecy is on a global scale at this stage.
    Can't say that I agree with this particular identification of the 8 in Rev 17, but I do find interesting your reference to the "3" in Dan 7--I'm supposing these to be the 3 that Antichrist defeats? I never asked myself the question, Why does Antichrist defeat only 3? Perhaps it is because these 3 hold particular dominance among the 10?

    I don't share your belief that Antichrist's dominion is global in the sense of being world-wide. A global power is simply one that competes on the world stage, and not one that controls the entire world. But I suppose it's disputable how far-reaching Antichrist's power is? The Scriptures say he emerges out of the old Roman imperial tradition, securing only 10 nations for his confederation. This has global repercussions, but not necessarily iron-clad control over the whole planet! Otherwise, how can Antichrist fight at Armageddon, if he has no competitors?

    But thanks for raising these issues. They're something to think about.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,730
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Here is my take. The subject should begin in Revelation 12:3 where a great ‘Red Dragon’ with seven heads and ten horns is actually Satan himself. He manifests himself as a ‘Beast’ rising from the ‘sea’ of nations in the form of world empires. They are antagonistic toward God, and they persecute the people of God.

    The first six manifestations of the ‘Beast’ were as follows:

    1. Egypt
    2. Assyria
    3. Babylon
    (Five have fallen. Rev 17:10)
    4. Medo-Persia
    5. Greece
    6. Rome
    (One is. Rev 17:10)
    The ten kingdoms that emerged from Rome were the ten geo-political regions that fractured from the original empire during the 5th to 8th century. (Dan. 7:24)
    The 7th manifestation of the ‘Beast’ I believe is the Islamic caliphate. It uprooted three of the above kingdoms during the 8th century. (the other has not yet come. Rev 17:10)


    The 7th empire that "had not yet come" when John was writing his prophecy, must have been the Islamic caliphate because it never arrived until AD 622. It was also the head that was "mortally wounded" (Rev. 13:3) - the Ottoman caliphate was dissolved in 1924. Islam continued as a religion, but its empire ended.


    The 8th manifestation of the ‘Beast’ is IMO a renewed Islamic caliphate. It combines the spirit of all the previous empires, as well being allied with a renewed manifestation of the ten European ‘horns.’ (Rev. 17:11-14)
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  13. #43
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    122

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Just to add to the discussion:

    The sixth is definitely Rome. This corresponds to the legs of iron in Nebuchadnezzar's statue. Consider the following:

    In 63BC the Roman General Pompey marched into Jerusalem making Judea, the Holy Land, a Roman province. From that time until 285AD when the emperor Diocletian found the empire too large and unwieldy split the Roman empire, the Holy Land was ruled from Rome. That is a period of 348 years. But from 285AD until 634AD when followers of the prophet Mohammad won the Battle of Ajnadayn over the Byzantine Romans, beginning the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land, the Holy Land was ruled from Byzantium or Constantinople. That is 349 years. 348 years from Rome. 349 years from Constantinople. Two legs of iron! Coincidence? I think not. I believe that the legs of iron is an extraordinary accurate prophecy.

    Most English translations combine the feet of iron and clay with the legs of iron. The feet or iron and clay is a new empire. The seventh empire from Revelation 17.

    As previously mentioned, in 634AD followers of Mohammad took the Holy Land. The Muslims have been ruling over some or all of the Holy Land ever since. And they have been doing it through a string of authority since 634AD. Consider the following:

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 634AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today

    This is ten Muslim entities, as in ten toes. Coincidence? I don't think so.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,413

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I can't say I'm absolutely right, because we are given only so much. But I do consider the possibility that as a faulty human being I may be missing something. So I appreciate any comments on the matter, in the hope God will give me more light. Thank you brother!

    Of course, there is more support for my view of Dan 11-12 from outside of this particular passage. There is the Olivet Discourse, which characterizes this whole period of "trouble" as the "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People. "At that time" is an explicit reference to the time Michael arises, in the period immediately following the death of Antiochus 4.

    It is no coincidence to me that Jesus also describes this period of time as the "Great Tribulation,", when Rome came to dominate the Jews, using the same words that Daniel uses. This indicates it will be a *long time,* only *beginning* in the era after Antiochus 4's death.

    Therefore, this "great tribulation" of the Jewish People is a long time because according to Jesus it lasts from his own time, while the Romans dominated Israel, until the time of the Gentiles ends. This is indeed consistent with the explicit language.

    But yes, it is a matter of how we interpret the passage. This is not an effort, on my part, to "read into" the passage. But it is indeed an interpretation, using the explicit statements according to my views.

    I will quote both passages, and you will be able to see how I believe both sections are related, and time this period of "Great Tribulation" as being from the Roman domination of Israel to the end of the times of the Gentiles.

    Dan 12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

    Luke 21.
    20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    Many scholars see Luke 21 as a prophecy of the fall of the temple in 70 AD. Jesus is here saying that "great tribulation" will erupt here, leading to an age-long Diaspora of the Jewish People. The end of this "great distress" will take place at the end of the age, when the Son of Man comes.

    And if you compare this with Dan 12 above, and if you align the two, you can see that I view the "great tribulation" Daniel described as the exact same thing. Following the death of Antiochus 4, a period of trouble begins for the Jewish People, namely the Roman oppression of Israel. This is the 4th Beast of Daniel, more terrible than the rest. And it was under Roman rule that Jerusalem was destroyed, along with its temple. This, for Jesus, was in fact the "great tribulation" being described by Daniel, and Jesus was in fact referencing it indirectly, by using the same exact words! This period of "great tribulation" ends at the coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age. This is just a view you might consider?

    Yes there is a period of great distress for the Jewish people. In the Olivet discourse Jesus describes two periods of great distress:
    Luke 21 describes a period of great distress for the land and its people (Israel and ethnic Jews), starting with the Roman armies v20, until the end of this age. I believe this is [rimarily referring to the Jewish diaspora.

    This is different to the greatest distress, the period of Satans's wrath. From various verses in the bible, we know that the greatest distress is 3.5 years long, at the end of this age. So when Jesus in Matthew 24 refers to "unequalled"distress we can quite clearly know that he is referring to that final 3.5 year period of distress and persecutions so clearly described in multiple verses. This period occurs AFTER the gospel is preached to all nations, fitting in perfectly with the great victory of our testimony of Rev 12. Followed by 3.5 years of Satan''s wrath and persecution.

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


    This is describing a sudden short period of distress at the end of the world, not a drawn out distress over 2000 years of diaspora.

    People often make the mistake of matching up a simple word or phrase, like "distress" or "when you see" "time to flee" instead of matching up multiple precise events in precise timing (fall of Satan, appearance of abomination, victory of the testimony, gospel preached to all nations...followed by 3.5 years)

    I am not expecting you to agree, just affirming that I understand your view, but disagree entirely. According to the wording Daniel 12 is referring to that greatest distress. This is confirmed in Daniel 12 when once again the timing of these events specifically relates to a 3.5 year period.
    There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,511

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Here is my take. The subject should begin in Revelation 12:3 where a great ‘Red Dragon’ with seven heads and ten horns is actually Satan himself. He manifests himself as a ‘Beast’ rising from the ‘sea’ of nations in the form of world empires. They are antagonistic toward God, and they persecute the people of God.

    The first six manifestations of the ‘Beast’ were as follows:

    1. Egypt
    2. Assyria
    3. Babylon
    (Five have fallen. Rev 17:10)
    4. Medo-Persia
    5. Greece
    6. Rome
    (One is. Rev 17:10)
    The ten kingdoms that emerged from Rome were the ten geo-political regions that fractured from the original empire during the 5th to 8th century. (Dan. 7:24)
    The 7th manifestation of the ‘Beast’ I believe is the Islamic caliphate. It uprooted three of the above kingdoms during the 8th century. (the other has not yet come. Rev 17:10)


    The 7th empire that "had not yet come" when John was writing his prophecy, must have been the Islamic caliphate because it never arrived until AD 622. It was also the head that was "mortally wounded" (Rev. 13:3) - the Ottoman caliphate was dissolved in 1924. Islam continued as a religion, but its empire ended.


    The 8th manifestation of the ‘Beast’ is IMO a renewed Islamic caliphate. It combines the spirit of all the previous empires, as well being allied with a renewed manifestation of the ten European ‘horns.’ (Rev. 17:11-14)
    I find that an interesting proposition, but the difficulty with me concerns the "mortal wound" of the Beast. I've wondered if the Beast "is not" because it had been wounded in the time before the Apostle John and his Revelation? John saw the Beast as having been, now "is not," and yet will come. That certainly was not true of Islam in John's time. Do you have an answer for this?

    Rev 13.3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.
    Rev 17.11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The "Revision of the King James Version of 1881"
    By northwye in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jul 30th 2012, 10:25 PM
  2. For Discussion: The Flaws of the "Fall Theory"
    By 4Piilars in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 119
    Last Post: Feb 4th 2011, 05:09 AM
  3. Ezekiel 28 "Prince of Tyre" vs "King of Tyre"
    By Steven3 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Oct 2nd 2009, 03:20 AM
  4. "Amplified" Bible vs King James
    By Clavicula_Nox in forum Christian Fellowship
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Jun 30th 2009, 03:52 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •