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Thread: new theory re: the "7th king"

  1. #241

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure, it could be fulfilled with Islamic kingdoms. But our main point of disagreement is whether the 10 are concurrent or consecutive.

    I believe they arise at the end, in the region of the Ottoman empire, so I am looking at how the Colonial Europe slowly dominated previously Ottoman regions culminating in there conquering of the Ottoman empire in WW1 , and how that Roman empire was broken up. Was there a little country (little horn) that then appeared to the shock of unbelievers, yet prophetically expected to appear by believers? Yes Israel. Is Israel expanding? Yes. Will Israel expand further into other territories? Yes Jesus says watch out for false Messiahs, and a believable one would have to conquer surrounding territory too.

    So yes the ten are new countries that arise out of the Roman empire , I agree they are Islamic, because the Roman empire was conquered by the Ottomans, and Mehmed took the crown of Caesar of Rome. It is this Islamic region, now largely conquered by the west, that is given 10 new kings (ten new west friendly governments). Out of one of them, Palestine, rises Israel, a little country that is expanding.
    It is all a matter of what is known versus what is unknown. This is known:


    1. Rashidun Caliphate 634AD to 661AD
    2. Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3. Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4. Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5. Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6. Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7. Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8. Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9. Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10. Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today


    Some future ten nation confederacy is unknown. Could some future ten nation confederacy rise? I guess. But that is all it is, a guess. These Muslim kingdom are not a guess. They are real. They are history.

    BTW, the allies rule over the Ottomans were very short-lived. In 1919, officers of the Ottoman Empire began a war of independence from the WWI allies. In 1922, they gained their independence and formed the Nation of Turkey. They did do away with the monarchy. They created a more secular nation with more democratic principles, and with a separation of church and state. Turkey became the most westernized Muslim nation on earth. However, these ideals have faded and a new, yet old, way has emerged. It is referred to as Neo-Ottomanism. No, the fall of the Ottoman Empire, did not last long. The Ottoman Turks are with us today within the Nation of Turkey. And this idea of Neo-Ottomanism is rapidly gaining strength within the Nation of Turkey.

    The Roman Empire is long gone. Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453AD. Rome fell a thousand years before that. There will not be some new confederacy based on Rome. Based on Islam? Now, that is far more likely. Will a new Caliphate arise? Maybe.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  2. #242
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    It is all a matter of what is known versus what is unknown. This is known:


    1. Rashidun Caliphate 634AD to 661AD
    2. Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3. Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4. Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5. Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6. Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7. Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8. Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9. Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10. Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today


    Some future ten nation confederacy is unknown. Could some future ten nation confederacy rise? I guess. But that is all it is, a guess. These Muslim kingdom are not a guess. They are real. They are history.

    BTW, the allies rule over the Ottomans were very short-lived. In 1919, officers of the Ottoman Empire began a war of independence from the WWI allies. In 1922, they gained their independence and formed the Nation of Turkey. They did do away with the monarchy. They created a more secular nation with more democratic principles, and with a separation of church and state. Turkey became the most westernized Muslim nation on earth. However, these ideals have faded and a new, yet old, way has emerged. It is referred to as Neo-Ottomanism. No, the fall of the Ottoman Empire, did not last long. The Ottoman Turks are with us today within the Nation of Turkey. And this idea of Neo-Ottomanism is rapidly gaining strength within the Nation of Turkey.

    The Roman Empire is long gone. Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453AD. Rome fell a thousand years before that. There will not be some new confederacy based on Rome. Based on Islam? Now, that is far more likely. Will a new Caliphate arise? Maybe.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    I find your comments interesting. You see the growing strength of a rising Ottoman Empire and acknowledge a trend towards a new Caliphate back in Istanbul. We both may disagree on the exact symbolism and the ten horns, yet you see this trend in Turkey which I believe is Central to the future of the Middle East. I believe Israel will co operate with this future Caliphate to create a new alliance in the Middle East.

  3. #243

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I believe Israel will co operate with this future Caliphate to create a new alliance in the Middle East.
    This would not fit the pattern.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.


    The seven heads are the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonian, Medo-Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Muslims. Each of these empires ruled over Israel. This is the common thread. These empires were characterized by war and conquest.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”


    The Lamb of course is the Messiah. The chosen and the faithful are the Jewish people and grafted-in Christians. The beast wages war against the Jewish and Christian peoples.

    Matthew 23:39 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


    Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai

    I don't know the future. But there likely will be a distress in the land of Israel so great that the Jewish people, as a nation, will finally call for their Messiah, and say, "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai." It will be the first coming for many of them. But it will be the second coming for the Messianic Jews and the grafted-in Christians. And together with the Messiah we will defeat the beast.

    No. This last king. The eighth one. He will wage war against the Saints. Since Revelation was written by a Jewish fellow named John, the Saints are the Jewish people. But I believe grafted-in gentile Christians are a part as well.

    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


    No. I do not believe that Israel will have any alliance with this eighth king.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  4. #244
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    This would not fit the pattern.
    The pattern is to worship false gods and forsake the true God. I'd say Durban was quite correct in his statement.

    Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

    Harlotry here means to worship false gods.

    Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #245

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    The pattern is to worship false gods and forsake the true God. I'd say Durban was quite correct in his statement.

    Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

    Harlotry here means to worship false gods.

    Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
    Yes, Jeremiah was talking about the Jewish people in his day that had turned from Adonai. And Adonai had them destroyed. Except Adonai did preserve a remnant. And from that remnant you would have Ezekiel, Daniel, Ezra, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Jesus. No. Antisemitism will not prevail. The Jewish people are accepting their Messiah. They are called Messianic Jews. And there will be 144,000 of them that will be sealed.

    You are correct that the harlotry in those days means a lust for another god. Ironically, this was often associated Baal worship prostitution. So the harlotry was both real and figurative.

    The pattern of the beast has a pagan or false god element in the empires represented. But the common thread is their rulership over Israel. These empires were not given the promise land, they took it by force of arms, or maintained it by such. The pattern of the beast is a spirit of war and conquest. And particularly war and conquest over Zion.

    Isaiah 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

    2 Now it will come about that
    In the last days
    The mountain of the house of the Lord
    Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
    And will be raised above the hills;
    And all the nations will stream to it.
    3 And many peoples will come and say,
    “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    That He may teach us concerning His ways
    And that we may walk in His paths.”
    For the law will go forth from Zion
    And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    4 And He will judge between the nations,
    And will render decisions for many peoples;
    And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
    And never again will they learn war.


    Never again will they learn war. It is WAR. That is the great evil of the beast. It is all about the land, Zion, Jerusalem. And the beast is the various empires that ruled over the land in place of Adonai's chosen people.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  6. #246

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    This would not fit the pattern.


    The seven heads are the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonian, Medo-Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Muslims. Each of these empires ruled over Israel. This is the common thread. These empires were characterized by war and conquest.


    The Lamb of course is the Messiah. The chosen and the faithful are the Jewish people and grafted-in Christians. The beast wages war against the Jewish and Christian peoples.



    I don't know the future. But there likely will be a distress in the land of Israel so great that the Jewish people, as a nation, will finally call for their Messiah, and say, "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai." It will be the first coming for many of them. But it will be the second coming for the Messianic Jews and the grafted-in Christians. And together with the Messiah we will defeat the beast.

    No. This last king. The eighth one. He will wage war against the Saints. Since Revelation was written by a Jewish fellow named John, the Saints are the Jewish people. But I believe grafted-in gentile Christians are a part as well.


    No. I do not believe that Israel will have any alliance with this eighth king.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    Where to begin? First of all, the seven heads, we are told, are seven kings -- but you have made them empires. Empires who conquered the Jewish lands are portrayed as beasts, not heads.

    The Lamb is indeed the Messiah, and he has chosen his faithful, both converted Jews and Christians. You are correct in that the beast waged was against the Jews, to inflict punishment on them with the permission of God.

    We don't need to know the future, the past tells us there has never been a distress, in a long history of incredible distresses, that has ever caused the Jewish people to recognize the Messiah.

    The saints are not the Jewish people, the martyred Christians are the saints.

    By the time of the eighth king there is not Israel.

  7. #247

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Where to begin? First of all, the seven heads, we are told, are seven kings -- but you have made them empires. Empires who conquered the Jewish lands are portrayed as beasts, not heads.

    The Lamb is indeed the Messiah, and he has chosen his faithful, both converted Jews and Christians. You are correct in that the beast waged was against the Jews, to inflict punishment on them with the permission of God.

    We don't need to know the future, the past tells us there has never been a distress, in a long history of incredible distresses, that has ever caused the Jewish people to recognize the Messiah.

    The saints are not the Jewish people, the martyred Christians are the saints.

    By the time of the eighth king there is not Israel.
    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 It was also given to him to make war with the [e]saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


    How can martyred Christians be conquered by the beast if they are already martyred? The saints are believing Jews and Christians.

    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

    Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.


    This is how we know the seven heads are empires. The reference to the leopard, bear, and lion are like in Daniel Chapter 7. These are empires. As are the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's statue. Yes. The seven heads are seven empires.

    Isaiah 66 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    7 “Before she travailed, she brought forth;
    Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
    8 “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
    Can a land be born in one day?
    Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
    As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
    9 “Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the Lord.


    This is a fulfilled prophecy. On May 14, 1948 the modern nation of Israel was born. The next day the new nation was attacked by four Muslim nations, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Israel was brought forth in a day. Her pain came afterwards. Fulfilled prophecy!

    Zion is very important. And why? I quoted it earlier:

    Isaiah 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 And many peoples will come and say,
    “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    That He may teach us concerning His ways
    And that we may walk in His paths.”
    For the law will go forth from Zion
    And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


    Prophecy does not communicate that once Israel is reformed that it will be destroyed again. No. The opposite is true. Zion, Israel, Jerusalem, will all survive to be the seat of Adonai's power on earth. That is why it is the focus of the empires of the beast. It is why it is a vital part of Biblical Prophecy. It is key.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  8. #248
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I have no problem with that.
    Okay, so now that we agree that Daniel 8 , being fulfilled, gives us clues to what animals/beasts and horns represent, we can apply that knowledge to the Eastern Empire and the ten horns.

    My point being that history points to the horns of Daniel 8 being identified via size and location within the original beast (Ram/goat)

    Thus I have the slight advantage over you, through defining the horns of Eastern Rome according to the geographical extent of the Byzantium Empire, rather than some cultural or religious inheritance.

    These matters shall never be conclusive, due to the mysterious nature of symbolism. The answers are therefore always subjective. But will be revealed to those who honestly and consistently take the most obvious meaning from the text. Only then does the full picture slowly emerge as each prophecy integrates with the next.

  9. #249

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 It was also given to him to make war with the [e]saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.


    How can martyred Christians be conquered by the beast if they are already martyred? The saints are believing Jews and Christians.

    Revelation 13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

    Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.


    This is how we know the seven heads are empires. The reference to the leopard, bear, and lion are like in Daniel Chapter 7. These are empires. As are the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's statue. Yes. The seven heads are seven empires.

    Isaiah 66 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    7 “Before she travailed, she brought forth;
    Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
    8 “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
    Can a land be born in one day?
    Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
    As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
    9 “Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the Lord.


    This is a fulfilled prophecy. On May 14, 1948 the modern nation of Israel was born. The next day the new nation was attacked by four Muslim nations, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Israel was brought forth in a day. Her pain came afterwards. Fulfilled prophecy!

    Zion is very important. And why? I quoted it earlier:

    Isaiah 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 And many peoples will come and say,
    “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    That He may teach us concerning His ways
    And that we may walk in His paths.”
    For the law will go forth from Zion
    And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


    Prophecy does not communicate that once Israel is reformed that it will be destroyed again. No. The opposite is true. Zion, Israel, Jerusalem, will all survive to be the seat of Adonai's power on earth. That is why it is the focus of the empires of the beast. It is why it is a vital part of Biblical Prophecy. It is key.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    1. Yes, the Christians martyred by Rome between AD 30 and 66 are the saints.
    2. Yes, the beasts are empires, but the heads are kings, as it says.
    3. Isaiah is talking about a restored Israel after the destruction by Babylon, not 1948.
    4. The key is actually that the reformed Israel is spiritual, not physical. Why would those transformed into spiritual beings be down graded back to flesh?

  10. #250
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    1. Yes, the Christians martyred by Rome between AD 30 and 66 are the saints.
    2. Yes, the beasts are empires, but the heads are kings, as it says.
    3. Isaiah is talking about a restored Israel after the destruction by Babylon, not 1948.
    4. The key is actually that the reformed Israel is spiritual, not physical. Why would those transformed into spiritual beings be down graded back to flesh?
    1. Which Christians were martyred by Rome between 30 and 66 AD?
    None until AFTER the fire of Rome in July 64 AD.
    2. The beasts in Daniel are kingdoms. Each beast has a head(s). That head is a kingdom also - note the 3rd beast had 4 heads, so each head was a separate kingdom within the wider Grecian empire. Yet also each horn is a king. So we find symbols fulfilling more than one role, which is why a symbol is used.
    The Beast in Revelation is a composite of the other beasts - pay attention to what it is made of. So each head is an individual kingdom relating to each head of the Daniel beasts/kingdoms.
    So it is a king, but also it is a kingdom for a king rules a kingdom and each head can be both without contradiction.
    Note that it also has horns who are also kings, and they also rule kingdoms. So the symbols show the interaction of various kingdoms through time.
    3. I agree
    4. Incorrect, the KEY is that the NHNE is BOTH physical and spiritual, just as Jesus is BOTH physical and spiritual, and as we will be.

  11. #251

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    1. Which Christians were martyred by Rome between 30 and 66 AD?
    None until AFTER the fire of Rome in July 64 AD.
    2. The beasts in Daniel are kingdoms. Each beast has a head(s). That head is a kingdom also - note the 3rd beast had 4 heads, so each head was a separate kingdom within the wider Grecian empire. Yet also each horn is a king. So we find symbols fulfilling more than one role, which is why a symbol is used.
    The Beast in Revelation is a composite of the other beasts - pay attention to what it is made of. So each head is an individual kingdom relating to each head of the Daniel beasts/kingdoms.
    So it is a king, but also it is a kingdom for a king rules a kingdom and each head can be both without contradiction.
    Note that it also has horns who are also kings, and they also rule kingdoms. So the symbols show the interaction of various kingdoms through time.
    3. I agree
    4. Incorrect, the KEY is that the NHNE is BOTH physical and spiritual, just as Jesus is BOTH physical and spiritual, and as we will be.
    1. Martyred by Rome's surrogate; Israel.
    2. The empires are well represented by beasts, the heads are kings, the seven Herodian kings of Israel.
    4. We will be given new bodies, transformed to spirit, in the new heaven on earth. We will not go down a notch.

  12. #252

    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    It is all a matter of what is known versus what is unknown. This is known:


    1. Rashidun Caliphate 634AD to 661AD
    2. Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3. Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4. Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5. Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6. Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7. Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8. Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9. Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10. Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today


    Some future ten nation confederacy is unknown. Could some future ten nation confederacy rise? I guess. But that is all it is, a guess. These Muslim kingdom are not a guess. They are real. They are history.

    BTW, the allies rule over the Ottomans were very short-lived. In 1919, officers of the Ottoman Empire began a war of independence from the WWI allies. In 1922, they gained their independence and formed the Nation of Turkey. They did do away with the monarchy. They created a more secular nation with more democratic principles, and with a separation of church and state. Turkey became the most westernized Muslim nation on earth. However, these ideals have faded and a new, yet old, way has emerged. It is referred to as Neo-Ottomanism. No, the fall of the Ottoman Empire, did not last long. The Ottoman Turks are with us today within the Nation of Turkey. And this idea of Neo-Ottomanism is rapidly gaining strength within the Nation of Turkey.

    The Roman Empire is long gone. Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453AD. Rome fell a thousand years before that. There will not be some new confederacy based on Rome. Based on Islam? Now, that is far more likely. Will a new Caliphate arise? Maybe.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    It was not a future 10 nation confederacy, but it was a past alliance of 10 rulers for seven years.

  13. #253
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    1. Martyred by Rome's surrogate; Israel.
    2. The empires are well represented by beasts, the heads are kings, the seven Herodian kings of Israel.
    4. We will be given new bodies, transformed to spirit, in the new heaven on earth. We will not go down a notch.
    1. Nope, Israel was NOT acting as Roman's surrogate. They did it without Roman's knowledge.
    2. Sorry, but there were only 6 Herodians. Further they didn;t rule over all Israel - ONLY Herod the Great did. The others held tetrarchies UNDER Roman rule. Herod the Great was actual ruler of the kingdom. There is NO connection between this beast and that of Revelation. I think you must be espousing Preterist ideology, whichdoes NOT fit into scripture or historical reality.
    4. We will be PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL. Whether the body is better or not is for this argument irrelevant.

  14. #254
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    Re: new theory re: the "7th king"

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Okay, so now that we agree that Daniel 8 , being fulfilled, gives us clues to what animals/beasts and horns represent, we can apply that knowledge to the Eastern Empire and the ten horns.

    My point being that history points to the horns of Daniel 8 being identified via size and location within the original beast (Ram/goat)

    Thus I have the slight advantage over you, through defining the horns of Eastern Rome according to the geographical extent of the Byzantium Empire, rather than some cultural or religious inheritance.

    These matters shall never be conclusive, due to the mysterious nature of symbolism. The answers are therefore always subjective. But will be revealed to those who honestly and consistently take the most obvious meaning from the text. Only then does the full picture slowly emerge as each prophecy integrates with the next.
    No, I think you do have valid points and a legitimate perspective. I just think it's a toss up--either the Turks qualify as E. Rome by virtue of having taken Constantinople, or the Slavs own the E. Roman tradition, by virtue of assuming the mantle of Orthodox protector.

    I just choose to believe the Slavs have inherited the E. Roman tradition because the Slavs and Christianity were part of the original E. Roman tradition. I'm not saying the Muslims don't play a role in the endtime scenario--they do. I just don't think they're part of the Beast empire. I suppose we'll see as things progress?

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