new theory re: the "7th king"

[randyk]

Rev 17.9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


Rome is the Harlot city who sat on 7 hills. The hills were successive empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, W. Rome, and E. Rome. The one who existed in John's time was the 6th, which "is." This was W. Rome.


The 7th was E. Rome, which was transitory and would not not survive the rest of history in this age--its time was "a little while." It would break up to survive only as a fragmented 10 states, which would be consolidated under the power of a final Kingdom, the kingdom of Antichrist.


Antichrist himself was said to have existed previously, but did not exist in John's time. And yet he would appear once more. This is in itself a riddle, just as Jesus had said John the Baptist was "Elijah who is to come." In other words, Antichrist had existed in a prototype, just as John the Baptist had existed in a prototype. Clearly, Jesus had existed in many prototypes.


Antichrist's prototype may have been Antiochus 4, who was used as this kind of illustration in the book of Daniel. He had been born out of the ancient Greek Empire, from the Syrian faction. In the same way the Roman Empire, the 4th and last of the great empires mentioned in Daniel, exist as "2 legs," one located in the region of Rome, and the other located in a more Greek region. Rome and Greece sort of existed as separate traditions within this final Roman Empire. But Antichrist would appear as a kind of final Antiochus 4, to rule the 10 factions of the final Roman Empire.


The question becomes: Why was Rome referred to as Mystery Babylon? John could not identify Rome directly, being inprisoned within that government, and so referred to the tradition of 4 empires that had begun with Babylon. It had begun with Babylon and led to Rome. Babylon was a city, and so, Rome would also be a city.


But why was the list of 7 successive empires to begin with Egypt, and not Babylon? It is because when Daniel wrote his prophecies, he lived in the time of Babylon. But Israel's history actually had begun in the time of Egypt, which is what John was referring to.

[marty fox]

Rev 17.9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


Rome is the Harlot city who sat on 7 hills. The hills were successive empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, W. Rome, and E. Rome. The one who existed in John's time was the 6th, which "is." This was W. Rome.


The 7th was E. Rome, which was transitory and would not not survive the rest of history in this age--its time was "a little while." It would break up to survive only as a fragmented 10 states, which would be consolidated under the power of a final Kingdom, the kingdom of Antichrist.


Antichrist himself was said to have existed previously, but did not exist in John's time. And yet he would appear once more. This is in itself a riddle, just as Jesus had said John the Baptist was "Elijah who is to come." In other words, Antichrist had existed in a prototype, just as John the Baptist had existed in a prototype. Clearly, Jesus had existed in many prototypes.


Antichrist's prototype may have been Antiochus 4, who was used as this kind of illustration in the book of Daniel. He had been born out of the ancient Greek Empire, from the Syrian faction. In the same way the Roman Empire, the 4th and last of the great empires mentioned in Daniel, exist as "2 legs," one located in the region of Rome, and the other located in a more Greek region. Rome and Greece sort of existed as separate traditions within this final Roman Empire. But Antichrist would appear as a kind of final Antiochus 4, to rule the 10 factions of the final Roman Empire.


The question becomes: Why was Rome referred to as Mystery Babylon? John could not identify Rome directly, being imprisoned within that government, and so referred to the tradition of 4 empires that had begun with Babylon. It had begun with Babylon and led to Rome. Babylon was a city, and so, Rome would also be a city.


But why was the list of 7 successive empires to begin with Egypt, and not Babylon? It is because when Daniel wrote his prophecies, he lived in the time of Babylon. But Israel's history actually had begun in the time of Egypt, which is what John was referring to.

John states that the antichrist was in the world at his time but it is also not complete as a person but a spirit.

1 John 4:1-3
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world."

I know that you know this already LOL but I wanted to back up my beliefs with scriptures

I see the 7 heads of the beast as the Caesars starting from Julius to Galba. I also see Nero as the 6th who "now is" and Galba the 7th remained just a short while just 7 months. The verse below shows that a part of the beast was "now is" or "one is" in Johns time

Rev 17:10
¹⁰ They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

I see mystery Babylon the great as Jerusalem the great city were also our Lord was crucified

Rev 11:8
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Rev 17:18
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

God also called His people out from her before 70AD

Rev 18:4-8
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

[B]“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6
Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7
Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;[c]
I will never mourn.’
8
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Only Israel killed both the prophets & the saints

Rev 18:20 & 24
20
“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”


24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matt 23:33-38
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

[randyk]

John states that the antichrist was in the world at his time but it is also not complete as a person but a spirit.

1 John 4:1-3
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world."

I know that you know this already LOL but I wanted to back up my beliefs with scriptures

No problem.

I see the 7 heads of the beast as the Caesars starting from Julius to Galba. I also see Nero as the 6th who "now is" and Galba the 7th remained just a short while just 7 months. The verse below shows that a part of the beast was "now is" or "one is"

Rev 17:10
¹⁰ They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

For a short time I entertained the possibility that the 7 kings were caesars, as well. I think I counted from Julius Caesar or Augustus Caesar. I wanted to come up with Nero or Titus, who were significant caesars. I felt there was a strong argument for John authoring the book of Revelation *after* 70 AD. So, I gave up on that interpretation.

Yes, either the 6th king "now is" in the sense of a current caesar, or it refers to the empire of Rome, which existed at that time. As we know from the book of Daniel, these empires came in a series, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The empire that currently existed at the time of the writing was Rome.

I see mystery Babylon the great as Jerusalem the great city were also our Lord was crucified

You are conflating two passages, Rev 11.8 and Rev 17.5.

Rev 11:8
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Rev 17:18
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

These two "great cities" may or may not be the same city. One was where Jesus was crucified, which was Jerusalem. This would be the Rev 11 passage. But the other "great city" in Rev 17 rules over the kings of the earth. That doesn't appear to fit Jerusalem. It fits Rome much better.

God also called His people out from her before 70AD

Rev 18:4-8
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

[B]“‘Come out of her, my people,’
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6
Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7
Give her as much torment and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;[c]
I will never mourn.’
8
Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Only Israel killed both the prophets & the saints

Rev 18:20 & 24
20
“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”


24
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Matt 23:33-38
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Rome also killed Christian prophets and apostles. In fact this was much moreso than Israel. While it is true that Israel persecuted Christians, so did Rome. And Rome ruled over the kings of the earth--it was an empire. Israel was not.

"Come out of her, my people" was a call to Israel to leave Babylon when their captivity was ending. It was not a call to leave Israel, but rather, I would think it was a call to return to Israel. While it is true that Jesus called for Christians to flee Jerusalem before the 70 AD ordeal, this does not easily equate with the call to flee Babylon.

But all this is difficult, and I'm willing to listen to any argument.

[Revelation Man]

Rev 17.9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


Rome is the Harlot city who sat on 7 hills. The hills were successive empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, W. Rome, and E. Rome. The one who existed in John's time was the 6th, which "is." This was W. Rome.


The 7th was E. Rome, which was transitory and would not not survive the rest of history in this age--its time was "a little while." It would break up to survive only as a fragmented 10 states, which would be consolidated under the power of a final Kingdom, the kingdom of Antichrist.


Antichrist himself was said to have existed previously, but did not exist in John's time. And yet he would appear once more. This is in itself a riddle, just as Jesus had said John the Baptist was "Elijah who is to come." In other words, Antichrist had existed in a prototype, just as John the Baptist had existed in a prototype. Clearly, Jesus had existed in many prototypes.


Antichrist's prototype may have been Antiochus 4, who was used as this kind of illustration in the book of Daniel. He had been born out of the ancient Greek Empire, from the Syrian faction. In the same way the Roman Empire, the 4th and last of the great empires mentioned in Daniel, exist as "2 legs," one located in the region of Rome, and the other located in a more Greek region. Rome and Greece sort of existed as separate traditions within this final Roman Empire. But Antichrist would appear as a kind of final Antiochus 4, to rule the 10 factions of the final Roman Empire.


The question becomes: Why was Rome referred to as Mystery Babylon? John could not identify Rome directly, being inprisoned within that government, and so referred to the tradition of 4 empires that had begun with Babylon. It had begun with Babylon and led to Rome. Babylon was a city, and so, Rome would also be a city.


But why was the list of 7 successive empires to begin with Egypt, and not Babylon? It is because when Daniel wrote his prophecies, he lived in the time of Babylon. But Israel's history actually had begun in the time of Egypt, which is what John was referring to.

There is no 7 Hills per se, its speaking about 7 Rulers who have risen above the plain. The 7 Heads are the 7 Kingdoms, the Last Head though is a mere MAN so somehow we need to be told this without John spelling it out so the world can understand it. So the Angel tells it to John this way. In other words the Angel reduces the KINGDOMS (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND............The coming Little Horn (Anti-Christ) to KINGS THAT HAVE FALLEN.............But why ? In order to allow us to understand that the LAST KING is a man that will FALL before he can ever pass his Kingdom on, thus the last head is NOT a Kingdom per se like the others, its only ever headed by ONE MAN !!

That is why we get the Seven Heads are SEVEN MOUNTAINS (Rulers who have arisen) AND they are also Seven Kings...........5 have Fallen..........one is [but will fall].....and one is YET TO COME (Little Horn/Anti-Christ). These are all of the Kingdoms, including the Little Horns Kingdom, that rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel throughout History, save the 2000 year Church Age (the Church could not be overcome by the gates of hell thus we delivered the MORTAL WOUND, LOL, over time the Church turned Rome from a Beast to a deliverer of the Gospel, Amen !! Glory).

Who is the 8th King that of OF THE SEVEN ? Well if he is of all 7, he has to be a Demon Spirit, he comes up from the pit and goes to destruction (Hell) in Rev. 17. Well it actually tells us who he is in Rev. 17, he is the Scarlet Colored Beast with NO CROWNS !! The Rev. 12 Red Dragon has 7 CROWNS on the heads because Satan is over every Kingdom of this World, the Revelation 13 Beast has 10 CROWNS on the 10 Horns because he is over the 10 European Kings !! The Rev. 17 Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon. He was also called something else in Daniel ch. 10, The Prince of Persia ( he was OF THE 7 !! ). He was appointed over this region (Mediterranean Sea Region). He was also over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and he wanted Persia to stay in power but God and his Angels (Michael etc.) wanted Alexander the Great to defeat Persia, thus Apollyon resisted them 21 days, but of course his effort was futile, you can't resist God. But NOW we know why Alexander the Great Conquered so swiftly LOL, the Angels were fighting on his side BOOM, Amen. Thus Apollyon was OF THE SEVEN and that means he will eventually be released from the pit and he will be over the Mediterranean Sea Region again, while the Little Horn/Anti-Christ reigns during the End Times ( SEE Revelation chapter 9) As we speak now Apollyon has been placed in the Bottomless pit for nigh 2000 years.......Thus HE WAS...........IS NOT............YET IS.

There is no actual SEVEN HEADED BEAST, it's a Figurative Beast.........thus according to who is being spoken of in juxtaposition to this 2500-3000 year old Figurative Beast we see different players mentioned in different chapters. Rev. 12 is about Satan (Red Dragon), he RULES THIS WORLD........And the Mediterranean Sea Region......... Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, a Demonic Entity assigned to rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region (Principalities or Powers in high places), and thus over Israel, who called him the Destroyer...........and of course the Rev. 13 Beast shows the LAST or the SEVENTH HEAD will be the Little Horn/Anti-Christ/MAN shown in Daniel 7:11, who is cast into hell.

There is no Mystery Babylon, the Angel told us he would tell us the Mystery in Rev. 17:7, thus in Rev. 17:8-18 we are told everything, if we listen.

There is a Harlot, ALL FALSE RELIGION in all the world and she is killed of by the Kings (Beast she rides), thus Islam and all Religions are BURNED/DESTROYED in Rev. 17:16.

Then there is the Rev.18 Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) or Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Babel means Confusion, and everyone serving the Beast is no doubt confused. When Jesus defeats the City/Nations in Rev. 16:19 it clearly says God sees these Nations He defeated as Babylon the Great and gives them the WINEPRESS of His Wrath !!

Babylon's COMMERCE in Rev. 18 is destroyed by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, about 3.5 to 4 Billion people are killed or die, that will of course destroy an economy, along with all the grasses burning, 1/3 of the trees burning, 1/3 ships destroyed, 1/3 of the sea creatures dying, 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, 1/3 of the waters are poisoned and the sun and moon gives not their light, the stars fall to earth, etc, etc. etc. So BABYLON (Whole World) is hit by God's Plagues, thus Rev. 18 starts in Rev. ch. 6 with the First Seal and ends in Rev. ch. 16 with the 7th Vial, or Jesus Returning.

God also tells Israel to come out of her (Babylon/WORLD) my people, lest she receives of Babylons PLAGUES !! It's the exact same event as Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 (144,000 are actually just ALL Israel Fleeing Judea). And of course Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) is the Habitation of Devils because Satan and his Demons have been cast out of Heaven and down unto earth, and Apollyon and his Demons have been released from the pit.

[Cyberseeker]

The hills were successive empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, W. Rome, and E. Rome. The one who existed in John's time was the 6th, which "is." This was W. Rome.

If you are going to treat West and East Rome as 2 of Revelations kingdoms, then why don't we treat Medo-Persia as 2, and Greece as 4?

The 7th was E. Rome,

More likely, the Islamic Empire was the 7th empire, which swept away 3 of Rome's 10 geo-political regions during the 8th century.

Antichrist's prototype may have been Antiochus 4

Agreed, but I think his domain will be larger than East Rome.

[DurbanDude]

Antichrist's prototype may have been Antiochus 4, who was used as this kind of illustration in the book of Daniel. He had been born out of the ancient Greek Empire, from the Syrian faction. In the same way the Roman Empire, the 4th and last of the great empires mentioned in Daniel, exist as "2 legs," one located in the region of Rome, and the other located in a more Greek region. Rome and Greece sort of existed as separate traditions within this final Roman Empire. But Antichrist would appear as a kind of final Antiochus 4, to rule the 10 factions of the final Roman Empire.


The question becomes: Why was Rome referred to as Mystery Babylon? John could not identify Rome directly, being inprisoned within that government, and so referred to the tradition of 4 empires that had begun with Babylon. It had begun with Babylon and led to Rome. Babylon was a city, and so, Rome would also be a city.


But why was the list of 7 successive empires to begin with Egypt, and not Babylon? It is because when Daniel wrote his prophecies, he lived in the time of Babylon. But Israel's history actually had begun in the time of Egypt, which is what John was referring to.

I find myself agreeing with nearly everything you say. Well put. I concentrate too much on the statue of Daniel 2, showing this split Rome/divided kingdom, and have regarded the divided kingdom as always this 7th kingdom. But the way you have expressed it is possibly better , it is merely the eastern portion of the divided kingdom that is the 7th kingdom. You seem to regard the 7th as currently the fragmented leftovers of the Byzantium Empire (Eastern Rome). I regard Eastern Rome as continuously expressed in the Ottoman Empire, and now Turkey.

The significance of the eastern empire is confirmed by Rev 17, which regards Rome as the city that rules kings, of purple and scarlet robes and golden cups (an obvious reference to Rome through the ages) . This Rome is seen as a SEPARATE entity to the final beast/ten kings, thus Rome takes a different role at the end as religious pompous whore, rather than one of the seven consecutive empires, and so I find myself agreeing with you that it is specifically eastern Rome, and not necessarily split Rome making up the 7th Empire.

[ForHisglory]

Rev 17.9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Rome is the Harlot city who sat on 7 hills. The hills were successive empires, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, W. Rome, and E. Rome. The one who existed in John's time was the 6th, which "is." This was W. Rome.

You make a statement as if it is fact, then follow up further with a speculative statement as if it too is fact.
Does scripture EVER call Rome a harlot city? No, except in circular reasoning.
What is a harlot in scripture?
It is one who should be following and in a relationship with God, but instead follows false gods.
Now this IS used of Jerusalem. It is one of the few things which lends credence to Jerusalem being Mystery Babylon.
An alternative reasoning is that Revelation isn't solely focused on the Jews, but is speaking of Christians who like the Jews who should have known better actually mix things up. Now at the time of Revelation, Rome was the major city, but it was not yet the principal Christian city. So the harlot fitting requires a future aspect, in which case it doesn't have to be Rome at all.

Now the mountains are not stated as symbols, for the heads are symbols. They are stated as an explanation of the symbolic heads.
These heads have a two-fold symbolism - as mountains and as kings.
So we can't limit the meaning to ONLY one of those, but need BOTH.

Now Rome wasn't on 7 mountains, but 7 hills. Further there were more than 7 hills, but some were leveled or noted as being a minor peak for the major one. However people generally accept Rome as having 7 hills due to the way language is used. Constantinople is also on 7 hills, as are a few other cities. So it is not by itself a clear indicator of the location. What is also missed is that in the same passage in Revelation it states "the waters you saw..." yet no mention of waters is given in Rev 17. Yet this is explained as symbolic of people and nations and languages.
Rome had peoples, but isn't on many waters. This fits Constantinople better.

Now when we consider kings, then this means kingdoms. You started with Egypt, yet Egypt didn't rule Jerusalem. Assyria also only conquered it briefly. IF you are using Daniel for helping you to understand then, the first kingdom is Babylon. So you need to start your count, and keep it in line with what Daniel is shown.
This is why understanding Daniel 2 is important. Daniel 7 helps here.

Further note that the Harlot is NOT the Beast, instead it states she is seated UPON the Beast.
Now historically this brings a new perspective, for Israel whored after Egypt, Assyria and Babylon in scripture.

Yet IF we see the Beast kingdoms as those which ruled Israel and Jerusalem and then the harlot as another being which the Beast's kings hate...

The 7th was E. Rome, which was transitory and would not not survive the rest of history in this age--its time was "a little while." It would break up to survive only as a fragmented 10 states, which would be consolidated under the power of a final Kingdom, the kingdom of Antichrist.

The 7th wasn't Eastern Rome. Nor was it transitory, as it lasted longer than West Rome. t also did NOT break up into 10 fragmentary states. Further Revelation gives a reverse picture of 10 states uniting to FORM the final kingdom.
This basically means your whole new theory seems completely disconnected with scripture.

But why was the list of 7 successive empires to begin with Egypt, and not Babylon? It is because when Daniel wrote his prophecies, he lived in the time of Babylon. But Israel's history actually had begun in the time of Egypt, which is what John was referring to.

A very speculative answer. If you look at the kingdoms that ruled Israel you will find 7 since the time of Daniel - just as Daniel 2 shows and Daniel 7 confirms.

[marty fox]

No problem.

Thanks but John did say it was active during his time

These two "great cities" may or may not be the same city. One was where Jesus was crucified, which was Jerusalem. This would be the Rev 11 passage. But the other "great city" in Rev 17 rules over the kings of the earth. That doesn't appear to fit Jerusalem. It fits Rome much better.

But the bible does refer to her ruling the nations

Jeremiah 31:7
7 For thus says the Lord:

“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’

Lamitations 1:1
How lonely sits the city
That was full of people!
How like a widow is she,
Who was great among the nations!
The princess among the provinces
Has become a [a]slave!

The verse above also refers to Revelation 18:7
7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived [e]luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’

Rome also killed Christian prophets and apostles. In fact this was much moreso than Israel. While it is true that Israel persecuted Christians, so did Rome. And Rome ruled over the kings of the earth--it was an empire. Israel was not.

"Come out of her, my people" was a call to Israel to leave Babylon when their captivity was ending. It was not a call to leave Israel, but rather, I would think it was a call to return to Israel. While it is true that Jesus called for Christians to flee Jerusalem before the 70 AD ordeal, this does not easily equate with the call to flee Babylon.

Rome killed Christians but not any prophets.

But revelation 18:4 is about mystery Babylon the great not the Babylon of Daniels time.

[randyk]

There is no 7 Hills per se, its speaking about 7 Rulers who have risen above the plain. The 7 Heads are the 7 Kingdoms, the Last Head though is a mere MAN so somehow we need to be told this without John spelling it out so the world can understand it. So the Angel tells it to John this way. In other words the Angel reduces the KINGDOMS (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND............The coming Little Horn (Anti-Christ) to KINGS THAT HAVE FALLEN.............But why ? In order to allow us to understand that the LAST KING is a man that will FALL before he can ever pass his Kingdom on, thus the last head is NOT a Kingdom per se like the others, its only ever headed by ONE MAN !!

That is why we get the Seven Heads are SEVEN MOUNTAINS (Rulers who have arisen) AND they are also Seven Kings...........5 have Fallen..........one is [but will fall].....and one is YET TO COME (Little Horn/Anti-Christ). These are all of the Kingdoms, including the Little Horns Kingdom, that rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region and Israel throughout History, save the 2000 year Church Age (the Church could not be overcome by the gates of hell thus we delivered the MORTAL WOUND, LOL, over time the Church turned Rome from a Beast to a deliverer of the Gospel, Amen !! Glory).

Who is the 8th King that of OF THE SEVEN ? Well if he is of all 7, he has to be a Demon Spirit, he comes up from the pit and goes to destruction (Hell) in Rev. 17. Well it actually tells us who he is in Rev. 17, he is the Scarlet Colored Beast with NO CROWNS !! The Rev. 12 Red Dragon has 7 CROWNS on the heads because Satan is over every Kingdom of this World, the Revelation 13 Beast has 10 CROWNS on the 10 Horns because he is over the 10 European Kings !! The Rev. 17 Scarlet Colored Beast is Apollyon. He was also called something else in Daniel ch. 10, The Prince of Persia ( he was OF THE 7 !! ). He was appointed over this region (Mediterranean Sea Region). He was also over Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and he wanted Persia to stay in power but God and his Angels (Michael etc.) wanted Alexander the Great to defeat Persia, thus Apollyon resisted them 21 days, but of course his effort was futile, you can't resist God. But NOW we know why Alexander the Great Conquered so swiftly LOL, the Angels were fighting on his side BOOM, Amen. Thus Apollyon was OF THE SEVEN and that means he will eventually be released from the pit and he will be over the Mediterranean Sea Region again, while the Little Horn/Anti-Christ reigns during the End Times ( SEE Revelation chapter 9) As we speak now Apollyon has been placed in the Bottomless pit for nigh 2000 years.......Thus HE WAS...........IS NOT............YET IS.

There is no actual SEVEN HEADED BEAST, it's a Figurative Beast.........thus according to who is being spoken of in juxtaposition to this 2500-3000 year old Figurative Beast we see different players mentioned in different chapters. Rev. 12 is about Satan (Red Dragon), he RULES THIS WORLD........And the Mediterranean Sea Region......... Rev. 17 is about Apollyon, a Demonic Entity assigned to rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region (Principalities or Powers in high places), and thus over Israel, who called him the Destroyer...........and of course the Rev. 13 Beast shows the LAST or the SEVENTH HEAD will be the Little Horn/Anti-Christ/MAN shown in Daniel 7:11, who is cast into hell.

There is no Mystery Babylon, the Angel told us he would tell us the Mystery in Rev. 17:7, thus in Rev. 17:8-18 we are told everything, if we listen.

There is a Harlot, ALL FALSE RELIGION in all the world and she is killed of by the Kings (Beast she rides), thus Islam and all Religions are BURNED/DESTROYED in Rev. 17:16.

Then there is the Rev.18 Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) or Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth, Babel means Confusion, and everyone serving the Beast is no doubt confused. When Jesus defeats the City/Nations in Rev. 16:19 it clearly says God sees these Nations He defeated as Babylon the Great and gives them the WINEPRESS of His Wrath !!

Babylon's COMMERCE in Rev. 18 is destroyed by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, about 3.5 to 4 Billion people are killed or die, that will of course destroy an economy, along with all the grasses burning, 1/3 of the trees burning, 1/3 ships destroyed, 1/3 of the sea creatures dying, 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, 1/3 of the waters are poisoned and the sun and moon gives not their light, the stars fall to earth, etc, etc. etc. So BABYLON (Whole World) is hit by God's Plagues, thus Rev. 18 starts in Rev. ch. 6 with the First Seal and ends in Rev. ch. 16 with the 7th Vial, or Jesus Returning.

God also tells Israel to come out of her (Babylon/WORLD) my people, lest she receives of Babylons PLAGUES !! It's the exact same event as Rev. 12 and Rev. 7 (144,000 are actually just ALL Israel Fleeing Judea). And of course Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) is the Habitation of Devils because Satan and his Demons have been cast out of Heaven and down unto earth, and Apollyon and his Demons have been released from the pit.

You do have me thinking about the Apollyon thing again. You could be right!

[randyk]

If you are going to treat West and East Rome as 2 of Revelations kingdoms, then why don't we treat Medo-Persia as 2, and Greece as 4?

I know--I thought about this too. It's perhaps inconsistent in some ways. The reason I persisted, however, is because of the actual history. Media and Persia had their own histories too. But we tend to look at them together, with respect to the time frame being represented.

It's different with the Roman Empire. After Constantine, a new branch of the Romans Empire was initiated--even though it was still the Roman Empire. And then, after the Western Empire fell, the Eastern Empire persevered. It became a thousand year kingdom!

So like the Medo-Persian Empire, the two branches of the Roman Emmpire existed simultaneously. But then they also had a sequential history in which one followed the other one. That's why I feel they may be listed as a separate "king."

More likely, the Islamic Empire was the 7th empire, which swept away 3 of Rome's 10 geo-political regions during the 8th century.

That's a possible interpretation.

Agreed, but I think his domain will be larger than East Rome.

Antichrist's reign will, I think, consist of 5 kings from W. Europe and 5 kings from E. Europe. Your possible interpretation might view it as 5 European kings and 5 Islamic kings?

[randyk]

Thanks but John did say it was active during his time

But the bible does refer to her ruling the nations

I don't deny that. I just see Rome as being the epitome of imperial rule--not Jerusalem. But your point is taken.

Jeremiah 31:7
7 For thus says the Lord:

“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’

Lamitations 1:1
How lonely sits the city
That was full of people!
How like a widow is she,
Who was great among the nations!
The princess among the provinces
Has become a [a]slave!

The verse above also refers to Revelation 18:7
7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived [e]luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’



Rome killed Christians but not any prophets.

But revelation 18:4 is about mystery Babylon the great not the Babylon of Daniels time.

I agree, Mystery Babylon is not about literal Babylon. After all, I believe it to represent Rome!

But I would say that Rome did indeed murder prophets, although they were not OT prophets. I believe John is referring to the murder of NT prophets.

I think the apostles were generally viewed as both apostles and prophets? But I could be wrong. I do believe Paul was referred to as a prophet. And the prophetic ministry was certainly listed by Paul as being one of the gifts of the Spirit. Furthermore, Paul ran into prophets in the church during his ministry. Clearly, NT prophets existed!

See Acts 11, 13, 15, 21; 1 Cor 12, 14; Eph 2, 3, 4; Rev 11.

[marty fox]

I don't deny that. I just see Rome as being the epitome of imperial rule--not Jerusalem. But your point is taken.



I agree, Mystery Babylon is not about literal Babylon. After all, I believe it to represent Rome!

But I would say that Rome did indeed murder prophets, although they were not OT prophets. I believe John is referring to the murder of NT prophets.

I think the apostles were generally viewed as both apostles and prophets? But I could be wrong. I do believe Paul was referred to as a prophet. And the prophetic ministry was certainly listed by Paul as being one of the gifts of the Spirit. Furthermore, Paul ran into prophets in the church during his ministry. Clearly, NT prophets existed!

See Acts 11, 13, 15, 21; 1 Cor 12, 14; Eph 2, 3, 4; Rev 11.

If you mean John the Baptist he was OT not NT yes his story is recorded in the NT but his ministry ry was OT

The way I understand it is all saved in the NT era are saints even if the NT called some of them prophets they are still saints

[Cyberseeker]

The early church believed the Roman Empire was the 4^th beast of Daniel, (the 6^th king of Revelation) and would be divided into 10 kingdoms. For example Hippolytus said:

“A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass.” And who are these but the Romans? - the kingdom which is now established ... After this, what remains, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together? And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them."
(Hippolytus (170–235 AD)

If you were saying that Rome fractured into 10 kingdoms, Byzantium eventually becoming one of the 10, we would find 10 kingdoms emerging inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire. I could agree with that. But to say that East Rome is actually the 7th Empire, creates problems from what I can see. Have you any suggestions who the 10 might be? Have you any suggestions who the 3 that get destroyed might be?

[DurbanDude]

The early church believed the Roman Empire was the 4^th beast of Daniel, (the 6^th king of Revelation) and would be divided into 10 kingdoms. For example Hippolytus said:

“A fourth beast, dreadful and terrible; it had iron teeth and claws of brass.” And who are these but the Romans? - the kingdom which is now established ... After this, what remains, but the toes of the feet of the image, in which part is iron and part clay, mixed together? And mystically by the toes of the feet he meant the kings who are to arise from among them."
(Hippolytus (170–235 AD)

If you were saying that Rome fractured into 10 kingdoms, Byzantium eventually becoming one of the 10, we would find 10 kingdoms emerging inside the boundaries of the former Roman Empire. I could agree with that. But to say that East Rome is actually the 7th Empire, creates problems from what I can see. Have you any suggestions who the 10 might be? Have you any suggestions who the 3 that get destroyed might be?

Yes Rome is the fourth kingdom. however the fourth kingdom has 3 PHASES according to Daniel 2:

Iron legs ---- Roman empire
Two feet/divided --- Rome/Istanbul
Ten toes --- End-times beast

These ten ONLY arise at the end , like Randyk I believe these ten are associated with the eastern portion of Rome, Rome itself takes on the role of Harlot at the end, a separate entity to the beast and ten horns


Rev 17 describes these ten as only existing right at the end:
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

[randyk]

If you mean John the Baptist he was OT not NT yes his story is recorded in the NT but his ministry ry was OT

The way I understand it is all saved in the NT era are saints even if the NT called some of them prophets they are still saints

Of course. All prophets are saints...except the bad ones!