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Thread: Nephilim

  1. #106
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Okay, so it could be used both ways. Maybe analyzing the phrase "daughters of men" would help? I know at least that "son of man" always means a general human, or perhaps "son of Adam."
    That is correct, the phrase in Hebrew is « daughters of Adam » the Hebrew has « ha-adham » « the » Adam. So Scripture tells us, the Adam the son of God allowed other sons of God to lay with his daughters. It never says they married, the sons of God choose from Adam's daughters woman they liked. Since angels no longer appear when the dispensation of the mystery started, most do not believe this. Yet, it is written.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    No, not convinced they were angels. Angels only do what they are allowed. Would God call a fallen angel a son. He doesn't even call the unfallen angels son.
    Scripture says so, why not believe?

    Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
    This is the Father speaking of His only begotten Son, but it's a nice quote anyway.

    Aristarkos

  3. #108
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    So now we can't trust our bible translations. I give up. To me children of God is synonymous with son of God.
    It is known that any translation has faults. I do not think this is deliberate, nevertheless if you know who made those translations it figures anyway.

    Just do a study in Scripture with the word « teknon » and « uihos » and notice the difference. When it's about a « teknon », there is never mention of things like « righteousness », or being « dead to sin ». The Lord came to Israel (as Jesus in the flesh) to regenerate them, regeneration makes one a child, not a son. This will reveal three things, one: believing in Jehovah is possible without being regenerated, two: believing in Jesus Christ is not. This belongs to the spiritual things which are foolishness to the natural man. Three: one can be regenerated but chose not to believe in Jesus Christ, every step on the road of salvation requires effort from us.

    Aristarkos

  4. #109
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    No, not convinced they were angels. Angels only do what they are allowed. Would God call a fallen angel a son. He doesn't even call the unfallen angels son.

    Heb. 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"
    Who were "the sons of God" in Job?

    One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. (1:6)
    On another day, the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD; and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him. (2:1)
    ... when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (38:7)

    Some translations like NIV, ISV, and CEB will say "angels" directly or "heavenly beings."
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  5. #110
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Who were "the sons of God" in Job?

    One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. (1:6)
    On another day, the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD; and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him. (2:1)
    ... when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (38:7)

    Some translations like NIV, ISV, and CEB will say "angels" directly or "heavenly beings."
    I am not convinced that son of God in Job 2 are angels. Now you are assuming this meeting was in heaven and not on earth. Here are the verses:

    Job 1:6, 7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

    It kind of looks like it is on earth. Satan was already cast down and imprisoned on the earth. You think God would allow Satan in heaven? You think Satan was regularly reporting to God with his accusations. Nonsense. If God had not inquired, Satan would not have spoken.

    James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

    Job 38:7 is a puzzle, but it does not take off all the rest of God's word that fits together. It could be out of the time element, something from the future.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #111
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I am not convinced that son of God in Job 2 are angels. Now you are assuming this meeting was in heaven and not on earth ... It kind of looks like it is on earth. Satan was already cast down and imprisoned on the earth. You think God would allow Satan in heaven? You think Satan was regularly reporting to God with his accusations. Nonsense. If God had not inquired, Satan would not have spoken.
    It still says Satan came and went from God's presence. So what would be the difference if he is making accusations on earth in God's presence as opposed to in heaven in God's presence? But to prove it took place in heaven, here it is more explicitly in Revelation:

    Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back .... [Satan] was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God .... Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! (Revelation 12)

    Evidently his accusations were being made prior to being cast out, because the angels rejoiced that they no longer had to listen to him. So the traditional understanding of Job 1 & 2 is compatible. Here's a similar picture of heaven in 2 Chronicles 18:

    And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ (18:18-21)

    Job 38:7 is a puzzle, but it does not take off all the rest of God's word that fits together. It could be out of the time element, something from the future.
    If the sons of God here are angels, then 38:7 is not puzzling at all. You only run into perspective/thematic issues if it refers to humans. I would even argue that they cannot be humans because God was citing the creation of the world as evidence of His authority. "Where were you?" isn't a question specific to Job.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  7. #112
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Scripture says so, why not believe?



    This is the Father speaking of His only begotten Son, but it's a nice quote anyway.

    Aristarkos
    Still no cigar, according to your interpretation scripture says so. Yes, he was talking of Christ, but that still does not detract that He does not refer to angels as sons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Who were "the sons of God" in Job?

    One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. (1:6)
    On another day, the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD; and Satan also came with them to present himself before Him. (2:1)
    ... when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (38:7)

    Some translations like NIV, ISV, and CEB will say "angels" directly or "heavenly beings."
    One reference in Job 38:7 seems to refer to sons of God as angels, why nowhere else. I do not draw doctrine on one witness (see Matt 18:16 - 2 Cor. 13:1). These newer translations have what you call doctrine read into them just like commentaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    It still says Satan came and went from God's presence. So what would be the difference if he is making accusations on earth in God's presence as opposed to in heaven in God's presence? But to prove it took place in heaven, here it is more explicitly in Revelation:

    Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back .... [Satan] was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God .... Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! (Revelation 12)

    Evidently his accusations were being made prior to being cast out, because the angels rejoiced that they no longer had to listen to him. So the traditional understanding of Job 1 & 2 is compatible. Here's a similar picture of heaven in 2 Chronicles 18:

    And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab the king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ (18:18-21)



    If the sons of God here are angels, then 38:7 is not puzzling at all. You only run into perspective/thematic issues if it refers to humans. I would even argue that they cannot be humans because God was citing the creation of the world as evidence of His authority. "Where were you?" isn't a question specific to Job.
    You really think Satan reported to God after the fall. You don't know my God then. It is so wrong it is almost laughable. And yes, Satan was already fallen by the Garden of Eden. God allowed Satan into his presence twice, what of it?
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  8. #113
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    Re: Nephilim

    I wonder, if Job is fiction, then what import does that have on Genesis 6?

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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    One reference in Job 38:7 seems to refer to sons of God as angels, why nowhere else.
    Six times the name occurs, it refers to angelic or non-human beings (Job 1, 2, 38 ... Psalm 29:1 and 89:6, Daniel 3:25). The three Job references are the most obvious.

    You really think Satan reported to God after the fall. You don't know my God then. It is so wrong it is almost laughable. And yes, Satan was already fallen by the Garden of Eden. God allowed Satan into his presence twice, what of it?
    Did you read the passage from Revelation 12? I'd appreciate your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I wonder, if Job is fiction, then what import does that have on Genesis 6?
    Job is mentioned by name as a prophet in James, so the book is probably not a parable.

    "Brothers, as an example of patience in affliction, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord ... You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen the outcome from the Lord." (James 5:11)

    However, I think reading Genesis as an allegory creates more problems than with Job.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  10. #115
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I wonder, if Job is fiction, then what import does that have on Genesis 6?
    You are still inferring Nephil are angels and that is not proven in any way.
    Giants = H5303
    נְפִל*** נְפִיל
    nephı̂yl*** nephil
    nef-eel', nef-eel'
    From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

    It does not even suggest a heavenly being.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  11. #116
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    Re: Nephilim

    Did you read the passage from Revelation 12? I'd appreciate your opinion.
    The reference in Rev. 12 cover a large time frame, the war in heaven was pre-history as pertaining to the creation of mankind. Ezek. 28 tells us Satan was the head angel in God's government until he fell. Rev. 12 goes on to tell the forming of the church and the persecution of the same.

    When Satan was allowed to speak to God in Job 1 and 2 it was an exceptional instance, just so God could issue His challenge. Satan is just a tool for evil that we all must overcome. You are assigning too much power to angels. In normal circumstances God could care less what Satan thinks.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  12. #117
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    I am not convinced that son of God in Job 2 are angels. Now you are assuming this meeting was in heaven and not on earth. Here are the verses:

    Job 1:6, 7 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

    It kind of looks like it is on earth. Satan was already cast down and imprisoned on the earth. You think God would allow Satan in heaven? You think Satan was regularly reporting to God with his accusations. Nonsense. If God had not inquired, Satan would not have spoken.

    James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

    Job 38:7 is a puzzle, but it does not take off all the rest of God's word that fits together. It could be out of the time element, something from the future.
    Seriously?
    'We're here'--"where did you come from"
    answer "earth"
    and you say, "It kind of looks like it is on earth"?
    C'mon!


    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Satan was already cast down and imprisoned on the earth.
    Imprisoned? Scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    You think God would allow Satan in heaven?
    Of course!


    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    If God had not inquired, Satan would not have spoken.
    What kind of Calvinistic garbage is this?

  13. #118
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    One reference in Job 38:7 seems to refer to sons of God as angels, why nowhere else. I do not draw doctrine on one witness (see Matt 18:16 - 2 Cor. 13:1).
    The most elementary of mistakes made by those on milk (I've been there too. We all have. Are you going to stay there?). This concept has absolutely nothing to do with how many passages make a point. Two or three witnesses is only about civil court/justice. So yes, we draw conclusions based on one instance. How many times does God need to tell you? How many times did he need to tell Adam? uhhu! That's correct. Just once. That's all it takes.

    It's also not the only reference, btw.

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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Seriously?
    'We're here'--"where did you come from"
    answer "earth"
    and you say, "It kind of looks like it is on earth"?
    C'mon!
    Whence comest thou? Is not where did you come from? It means why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Imprisoned? Scripture?
    Rev 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:" You take a heavenly creature and cast them to the earth, that is imprisoned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Of course!
    The question was: will God allow Satan in heaven? You said "of course." Once imprisoned to earth Satan is not going to and from God's heavenly throne. Remember "Cast to the earth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    What kind of Calvinistic garbage is this?
    If God had not inquired, Satan would not have spoken, period. No Calvin.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  15. #120
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    Re: Nephilim

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    The most elementary of mistakes made by those on milk (I've been there too. We all have. Are you going to stay there?). This concept has absolutely nothing to do with how many passages make a point. Two or three witnesses is only about civil court/justice. So yes, we draw conclusions based on one instance. How many times does God need to tell you? How many times did he need to tell Adam? uhhu! That's correct. Just once. That's all it takes.

    It's also not the only reference, btw.
    And yet they run counter to so many other scriptures, your doctrine becomes a convoluted puzzle. You accuse me as being on milk: You don't even know me. Okay, give me other references, btw.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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