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Thread: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

  1. #91
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It seems that you confuse the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14, with the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    Rev 7 is a chapter describing things soon after the Sixth Seal event; a great worldwide disaster. The actual Great Tribulation will happen several years later, in the last 3.5 years prior to the glorious Return of Jesus.

    At the Sixth Seal, God promises to protect all those who stand firm in their faith in Him. All who call upon His Name will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    Note that in Revelation 12:6-17 and in Daniel 11:32-35, also in Zechariah 14:2, there is a separation among the Christians. Half of them will be kept safe during the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, and half must remain in the holy Land, while it is under the control of the Anti-Christ.

    BTW, I agree with ForHisGlory about the future fulfilment of Daniel 9:27, by a man to come who will rule all the world. Titus was just a forerunner, a type of the Anti-Christ.
    If anyone is confused about the Great Tribulation, it's certainly not me. According to my Bible, there's only ONE GT in the end times and accurately cited Rev 7:14 show the martyrs.

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    As usual, you misquote scripture, e.g. Dan 11:32-35 was fulfilled during the time of Antiochus 4. The passages refer to the state of Daniel's people during their untold oppression at the hands of A4E.

    The fact you believe it is end times, beggars belief. With regard to Dan 9:27, FHG and in agreement, our disagreement is who the prophesied coming prince in v-26 is.

  2. #92
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It was destroyed in 70 AD, but NOT under the command of Titus.
    Rather it is stated as contrary to the command of Titus.
    Further Titus is irrelevant in the prophecy.
    My point is supported by history; the soldiers were under the command of Titus. But whether he gave the 'order' to destroy the temple or not is a different matter. I'm stating this FACT for other readers. I wasn't expecting you to recant.

    The prophecy doesn't say they are Gentiles - the prophecy says the PEOPLE of the prince will destroy the temple NOT the prince will destroy the temple.
    I also dislike repetition and I don;t seem to get you to understand that you are claiming something the prophecy does NOT say.
    Further, why does it matter is crucial.
    The FUTURE prince (which is NOT Titus, and Titus was NOT the AC), will be a man like anyone else.
    However this prophecy TELLS us what PEOPLE he will come from.
    If the soldiers were ALL Chinese then we would say that the AC will be Chinese.
    If the soldiers were ALL Greeks then we would say that the AC will be Greek.

    You are claiming the soldiers were Romans, and my very clear point is that they were NOT Romans ETHNICALLY. IOW as a PEOPLE they were NOT Romans.
    When you begin to accuse me of saying something I didn't say, it's evidence you're either confused or conflicted.

    1. I never said that the Prince destroyed the temple. Yet you claimed I did.
    2. The prophecy didn't explicitly refer to the People of the prince as Gentiles, but since you and I agree they are not ethnic Jews then my assertion that they are Gentiles (non-Jews) is not out of place.
    3. The prince has ALREADY come and he was a man. Don't know the relevance of your statement "will be a man like anyone else". I never said he was anything else, did I?
    4. You said the prophecy tells us what PEOPLE he (the AC) will come from. But I don't get this from the text, mind providing the scripture?
    5. And you can hand on heart, swear that EVERY SOLDIER on that faithful day (70 AD) was NOT Roman?

    Are we the "people of Christ"? Certainly.
    Are we perhaps Jews, named after a person more than 3,500 years ago? Certainly some are.

    Your claim to proving nothing simply means you don't reflect on how words are used or the meaning of them.
    We (believers) are the people of Christ, why? Because Jesus Christ has come, died and gone to heaven. But the AC is yet to come, having forerunners is not the same as the man himself. So to claim that people who lived 2000 years are "antichrist's people" is plain wrong.

    Titus in NO way fulfills the prince to come.
    No sense in flogging a dead horse, is there? Believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.

    Sure I'll explain. What nationality will the prince to come - the AC be?
    We KNOW the PEOPLE he will come from is the SAME as the PEOPLE who destroyed the temple in 70 AD.
    If I merely suspected you're confused, here is the proof. The Roman empire encompassed most of modern-day Europe, North Africa, and the middle-east as we know it today. You have made the case that the soldiers in 70 AD were not Romans, so let's keep that aside. Now, we all know that the Roman army had soldiers from every nook and corner of their vast empire. So when say "We KNOW the PEOPLE he will come from is the SAME as the PEOPLE who destroyed the temple in 70 AD". Which ethnic people do have in mind exactly? Those from Europe, North Africa, the middle-east or Asia Minor as most of Turkey was referred to at that time?

    Verse 27 is NOT an interjection.
    Verse 27 explains what will happen in the FINAL week of Daniel's prophecy. This prophecy states that AFTER the 70 weeks THEN certain things will happen as stated in verse 24.
    Verse 25 speaks of the 7 weeks which ends with the return to Israel and Jerusalem. It also speaks of the 62 weeks from the restoration of Jerusalem.
    Verse 26 speaks of the Messiah who is cut off - speaking of Jesus. It also speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    Verse 27 however does NOT speak of 70 AD, but speaks of a FUTURE 1 week when a covenant is made, by the person who is called "the prince to come."
    Now Titus made no covenant with the many for 1 week. He didn't bring an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of that week.
    Titus is NOT the prince to come.
    There is a prince to come and he is the AC.
    Further the prince to come will be OF the PEOPLE who destroyed the temple in 70 AD.
    Dan 9:27 is about the future AC but he's nowhere in v26.

  3. #93

    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We know that the Two Witnesses' ministry will last for 3.5 years (Rev 11:3)
    Israel will escape into the wilderness to be protected and succoured for 3.5 years (Rev 12:6; 14)
    If the Great Tribulation is only for 3.5 years, it follows that the end of the 2Ws ministry will mark the beginning of the Tribulation.
    If this assertion is true, it means that Israel will not be affected by the great tribulation?

    Your thoughts...
    Unfortunately, and as usual, there are more than one interpretation of the woman with the starry crown. She may be the Christian church. As you know, Israel was completely destroyed by the Romans in AD 70, (which was the second time she was totally destroyed) so history shows she is not necessarily safe from any great tribulations.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My point is supported by history; the soldiers were under the command of Titus. But whether he gave the 'order' to destroy the temple or not is a different matter. I'm stating this FACT for other readers. I wasn't expecting you to recant.
    What am I meant to recant? I agree with you that Titus led the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. You want me to recant that?
    What I have highlighted is that the prophecy states it is the PEOPLE who destroy the sanctuary.


    When you begin to accuse me of saying something I didn't say, it's evidence you're either confused or conflicted.

    1. I never said that the Prince destroyed the temple. Yet you claimed I did.
    2. The prophecy didn't explicitly refer to the People of the prince as Gentiles, but since you and I agree they are not ethnic Jews then my assertion that they are Gentiles (non-Jews) is not out of place.
    3. The prince has ALREADY come and he was a man. Don't know the relevance of your statement "will be a man like anyone else". I never said he was anything else, did I?
    4. You said the prophecy tells us what PEOPLE he (the AC) will come from. But I don't get this from the text, mind providing the scripture?
    5. And you can hand on heart, swear that EVERY SOLDIER on that faithful day (70 AD) was NOT Roman?
    I am neither confused or conflicted.
    I didn't say you said something you didn't. This suggests that you are not reading what I am writing, or I need to try to explain another way.
    I'll now say what I did say and how it differs.

    1. You claim that Titus is the Prince in verse 26 BECAUSE he is the one who led the forces which destroyed the temple. I said that the prince doesn't lead the people to destroy the temple. Titus is NOT the prince in verse 26.
    2. Your assertion is irrelevant.you were making out that I was claiming it was Jews, and I had simply highlighted that some hold that view.
    3. The prince has NOT come. I didn't say he wouldn't be a man or that you said he wouldn't be a man.
    4. The scripture says "the PEOPLE of the prince to come..." This is Dan 9:26. You have quoted it and noted it and you still are NOT reading it.
    5. I can hand on heart faithfully swear that the majority of the soldiers were not Roman. Is it possible a few were? Certainly, especially those who were tribunes. However what is FACT, is that the majority of the Roman Legionnaires were NOT ethnically Roman, nor Roman citizens and that close to 100% of the auxiliary forces were not Roman.

    We (believers) are the people of Christ, why? Because Jesus Christ has come, died and gone to heaven. But the AC is yet to come, having forerunners is not the same as the man himself. So to claim that people who lived 2000 years are "antichrist's people" is plain wrong.
    Firstly it isn't plain wrong.
    However the point in the prophecy states they are a PEOPLE of someone who is to come (in the FUTURE). This means that you are disagreeing with the description the prophecy states is the determinant.
    In the prophecy the prince HAD NOT come.
    In the prophecy the PEOPLE were to be the PEOPLE out of whom/from whom the prince is to come. It is very simple language.

    If I merely suspected you're confused, here is the proof. The Roman empire encompassed most of modern-day Europe, North Africa, and the middle-east as we know it today. You have made the case that the soldiers in 70 AD were not Romans, so let's keep that aside. Now, we all know that the Roman army had soldiers from every nook and corner of their vast empire. So when say "We KNOW the PEOPLE he will come from is the SAME as the PEOPLE who destroyed the temple in 70 AD". Which ethnic people do have in mind exactly? Those from Europe, North Africa, the middle-east or Asia Minor as most of Turkey was referred to at that time?
    The Roman Empire did not encompass most of modern-day Europe. Best get back to your history books. It encompassed, Spain, France, England and Wales, Switzerland, Italy, Greece, Croatia, Bulgaria, parts of Romania, Austria and less of Germany.
    It did NOT encompass most of Germany (beyond the Rhine), Poland, Czech, Slovak, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belorussia, Ukraine, Moldova, and Russia.
    Now which ethnic people do I have in mind? Well I do have an ethnic people in mind, but this is only probable NOT certain. You see it was the auxilliary forces who set fire to the temple, and Josephus records who they were.
    Further the Legions raised there troops from certain areas and if you look into which legions actually took part in the siege of Jerusalem, then you can find out where most of those legionnaires came from.

    Dan 9:27 is about the future AC but he's nowhere in v26.
    The AC is "the prince to come". This is who verse 27 refers back to when it says "He will make a covenant..."
    You should know that such statements refer back to a previously mentioned person.

  5. #95
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Unfortunately, and as usual, there are more than one interpretation of the woman with the starry crown. She may be the Christian church. As you know, Israel was completely destroyed by the Romans in AD 70, (which was the second time she was totally destroyed) so history shows she is not necessarily safe from any great tribulations.
    a. I will accept that Israel is "not necessarily safe from the GT" in the sense that the unbelieving among them will not heed the warning to flee and will consequently be slaughtered by the Beast (Zech 14:2)
    b. Although some believers have forwarded the 'Church' theory as a possible interpretation of the woman in Rev 12, in truth, scripture just doesn't support it.
    c. It says the woman gave birth to a man-child; would you care to explain the man-child that the church gave birth to?

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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If anyone is confused about the Great Tribulation, it's certainly not me. According to my Bible, there's only ONE GT in the end times and accurately cited Rev 7:14 show the martyrs.
    Jesus said; You will experience much tribulation... And He was surely right about that, with the Christian persecutions thru all this age and still ongoing.

    My Revised English Bible renders Revelation 7:14..... they are those who have passed through the great ordeal..
    Referring to the terrible worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, that will just have occurred. Those people are not dead, they are not martyrs, they are survivors of the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, because they stood firm in their faith for God's protection and were saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    The Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Quite different and separate for the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowl, to happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. That is the Revelation sequence, any shuffling of it is error.

  7. #97
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus said; You will experience much tribulation...… And He was surely right about that, with the Christian persecutions thru all this age and still ongoing.

    My Revised English Bible renders Revelation 7:14..... they are those who have passed through the great ordeal..
    Referring to the terrible worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal, that will just have occurred. Those people are not dead, they are not martyrs, they are survivors of the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, because they stood firm in their faith for God's protection and were saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    The Day of the Lord's wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Quite different and separate for the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowl, to happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. That is the Revelation sequence, any shuffling of it is error.
    Those in Christ will always suffer from the protracted tribulation, but the scriptures in several places. e.g. Matt 24:21 made certain that distinction is made between the age-long tribulation and the Great Tribulation. I am simply focusing on the GT and showing with scripture (Rev 7:14) that many saints will be martyred whereas you are making an irrelevant argument about the Sixt seal and the Wrath of the Lamb.

    The argument is not about the different catastrophes (Sixt seal/wrath of the Lamb, etc) in the end-times or their timeline. The focus is primarily the GT...and will some saints die or not? Scriptures that many will die. End of story!

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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Those in Christ will always suffer from the protracted tribulation, but the scriptures in several places. e.g. Matt 24:21 made certain that distinction is made between the age-long tribulation and the Great Tribulation. I am simply focusing on the GT and showing with scripture (Rev 7:14) that many saints will be martyred whereas you are making an irrelevant argument about the Sixt seal and the Wrath of the Lamb.

    The argument is not about the different catastrophes (Sixt seal/wrath of the Lamb, etc) in the end-times or their timeline. The focus is primarily the GT...and will some saints die or not? Scriptures that many will die. End of story!
    Not the 'end of story', at all.
    Don't know about your life, but I surely do not consider my lifestyle to be 'tribulation!'

    I showed from the Revelation sequence of events, that the Sixth Seal is before the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation. The SS is a different event, years before the GT. But as Revelation 7:14 says; it will be a Day of great tribulation. Peter refers to it in 1 Peter 4:12 and 2 Peter 3:7, plus over 100 other prophesies in the Bible.
    Most who will die at the SS, are the godless peoples in the Middle East. Who include Israel; only a remnant will survive.

    About the Great Tribulation, that will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, we need not be too concerned. It is the Great and terrible Day of the Lords wrath, Joel 2:30-32, Revelation 6:12-21, + that we should be aware of and prepared for.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Not the 'end of story', at all.
    Don't know about your life, but I surely do not consider my lifestyle to be 'tribulation!'

    I showed from the Revelation sequence of events, that the Sixth Seal is before the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of the Great Tribulation. The SS is a different event, years before the GT. But as Revelation 7:14 says; it will be a Day of great tribulation. Peter refers to it in 1 Peter 4:12 and 2 Peter 3:7, plus over 100 other prophesies in the Bible.
    Most who will die at the SS, are the godless peoples in the Middle East. Who include Israel; only a remnant will survive.

    About the Great Tribulation, that will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, we need not be too concerned. It is the Great and terrible Day of the Lords wrath, Joel 2:30-32, Revelation 6:12-21, + that we should be aware of and prepared for.
    Again, I'm just keeping it simple by not going into the seals and when they will occur. For simplicity, I'm looking at the difference between the age-old tribulation of God's people against the Great Tribulation itself.

    According to scripture, Christians have suffered and continue to suffer tribulation since the crucifixion. We in the west, fortunately, do not experience tribulation, so I agree when you say you don't see your lifestyle as that of tribulation. But I will cite a couple of examples of believers who are suffering tribulation today.

    1. An 18 year old Pakistani school girl called Binish was lured to an uncompleted 2 storey building and pushed down by a 28-year-old Muslim man who has harassed her for over a year to marry him and convert to Isam. She refused to marry him, let alone forsake Christ and convert to Islam. That was her crime, today, she's paralysed from the waist down from her fall.

    2. Earlier this year, news broke that Nigeria's Boko Haram has once again raided an all-girls high school in Nigeria's notorious Northeast and took hundreds of teenage girls captive. But three weeks later almost all the girls were released through govt's negotiation, save one - a brave 15 year old Christian girl called Leah Sharibu. Boko Haram has since threatened to kill her unless she converts to Islam. Yet, despite the fear of death, this young brave soldier of Christ has vowed to die than reject Christ for Islam. This is her 8th month in captivity if my information is correct.

    There are also thousands of Christians all over the world facing similar tribulation. The Bible is emphatic that until Christ returns, tribulation will continue. But to separate this age-old tribulation from that that will surpass all else, Jesus called it the *Great Tribulation*. This is my point; I'm not exploring the seals and when they will occur or who and who will die. I can't be any clearer of my position than this.

  10. #100
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Bottom line whether Jew of Gentile..

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


    Jude
    If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Bottom line whether Jew of Gentile..

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Jude
    This is a very hard scripture for all people who have had the Gospel preached to them and rejected it. Those who never hear it will be judged on the merits of their lives.

    However, as Christians, we do still have to face trials and we are told to stand firm in our faith and endure until the end; that is - Jesus' Return.

  12. #102

    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    a. I will accept that Israel is "not necessarily safe from the GT" in the sense that the unbelieving among them will not heed the warning to flee and will consequently be slaughtered by the Beast (Zech 14:2)
    b. Although some believers have forwarded the 'Church' theory as a possible interpretation of the woman in Rev 12, in truth, scripture just doesn't support it.
    c. It says the woman gave birth to a man-child; would you care to explain the man-child that the church gave birth to?
    To clarify, she might be the first church in Jerusalem. And the birth is not literal, it is allegory, meaning the church preached the good news of Christ, and Satan tried to wipe it out with a "flood" meaning a multitude of people. Israel was not saved and won't be, but the early church was, by fleeing to the wilderness.

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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    To clarify, she might be the first church in Jerusalem. And the birth is not literal, it is allegory, meaning the church preached the good news of Christ, and Satan tried to wipe it out with a "flood" meaning a multitude of people. Israel was not saved and won't be, but the early church was, by fleeing to the wilderness.
    You confuse me.
    The post I responded to claims that the church gave birth to a man-child.
    Now, you say the church gave birth to the "first church in Jerusalem".
    How can the church give birth to a church?

  14. #104

    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You confuse me.
    The post I responded to claims that the church gave birth to a man-child.
    Now, you say the church gave birth to the "first church in Jerusalem".
    How can the church give birth to a church?
    It gave birth to the gospel of Christ.

  15. #105
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    Re: The Great Tribulation will not affect Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    It gave birth to the gospel of Christ.
    "It" gave birth to the gospel of Christ? It's obvious you don't really know what the text means. But let's leave it for now. Thanks for your contribution.

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