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Thread: Old Testment New Testment ?(Moved from GIC)

  1. #16

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Those who have been saved by grace through faith have repented and the result is a changed life/bearing fruit in keeping with repentance/performing deeds appropriate to repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20). Are you saying that many Christians are simply satisfied with being saved by grace through faith, then refuse to produce fruit and go on to maturity and prefer to remain comfortable as babes in Christ?
    I think that's exactly what I'm saying
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

  2. #17

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Remember salvation is a result of your new relationship with Jesus and the Father because of his sacrifice on the cross and because of your faith and repentance. So, you are saved by grace for good works. However, your salvation continues by your continued faith, repentance and good works which is the result of your trust and love for Him who saved you. Without your follow through (good works) you have no salvation. So, yes you are saved by your obedience to God and your resulting good works.

  3. #18

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    It is like becoming engaged (in a perfect relationship). Yes, engagement is the result of a single decision, but your continued engagement is a result of your love, trust, repentance from (disobedience to the engagement agreement) dead works, and, of course, your good works (obedience to the engagement agreement). Your actions are the truth of your love. Without your good works in an engagement your engagement would end. An engagement to Jesus works on the same principle. In a perfect love we die to ourselves and only work to please the other. Your good works are your expression of love for Him if you truly do love Him, and trust Him. He is the perfect lover now He must make you one.

  4. #19
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    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufword View Post
    Without your follow through (good works) you have no salvation.
    Without your follow through (good works) you demonstrate that you have no faith, which is the root cause of why you would have no salvation. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root (James 2:14-24). *Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

    So, yes you are saved by your obedience to God and your resulting good works.
    Obedience/resulting good works is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. To say that we are saved "by" our obedience/resulting good works it to teach salvation by works, which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. So how much obedience/good works must you accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Him save you? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed (Romans 3:24-28). From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not "obtained" or "maintained" by works.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  5. #20

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not "obtained" or "maintained" by works.

    Of course, your salvation must be “maintained”. He saved you for that reason. So you would love Him. Your love for Him expressed by your obedience to Him. Not to the letter of the law, but beyond the letter of the law. To the fullness of your whole heart and mind to the same degree that you love Him. This is a relationship built on love. Love in its purest form is action (not a feeling). Just as He was obedient out of His love for us on the cross. We must “walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God” (Col 1:10). Not so we can “validate” our faith, but so we can properly love Him, honor Him, and ultimately be presented blameless before our Father. We were saved to love Him. We love Him because He has always loved us and has given us a chance to truly love Him back through His sacrifice on the cross.

    The way you speak of “validation” by your works. Seems to avoid the idea of a loving relationship expressed in your obedience. It is like telling your spouse I am obedient to our marriage vows because we are married, and that validates our marriage. In a perfect marriage, you go well beyond your marriage vows not as validation of being married, but because you fully and truly love your spouse.

    He sacrificed Himself for you not so you could be saved, but so you and Him and eventually your Father could be together in love, in their presence forever....

  6. #21
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    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufword View Post
    Of course, your salvation must be “maintained”.
    How is our salvation maintained by works and how many works does it take?

    He saved you for that reason. So you would love Him. Your love for Him expressed by your obedience to Him. Not to the letter of the law, but beyond the letter of the law. To the fullness of your whole heart and mind to the same degree that you love Him. This is a relationship built on love. Love in its purest form is action (not a feeling). Just as He was obedient out of His love for us on the cross. We were saved to love Him. We love Him because He has always loved us and has given us a chance to truly love Him back through His sacrifice on the cross. He sacrificed Himself for you not so you could be saved, but so you and Him and eventually your Father could be together in love, in their presence forever....
    Our love is expressed by our obedience to Him, yet it's not our obedience/works that saves us, but our faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) God's love has been poured out into the hearts of believers through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)

    We must “walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God” (Col 1:10). Not so we can “validate” our faith, but so we can properly love Him, honor Him, and ultimately be presented blameless before our Father.
    So you are saying we "must" walk worthy "enough" and bear "enough" fruit and increase in "enough" knowledge of God or else we will not be presented blameless before the Father/will not be saved? Do you believe that ultimately we will be saved based on the merits of our performance? Colossians 1:13 - He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

    Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    The way you speak of “validation” by your works. Seems to avoid the idea of a loving relationship expressed in your obedience.
    Not at all. As I already explained, eternal life is to know Him, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent, which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. Are you avoiding James chapter 2 in regards to showing our faith by our works? In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate/evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

    It's imperative to understand that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

    In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" and an example of "loving our neighbor as ourself." (Matthew 22:39) So faith works through love (Galatians 5:6)

    It is like telling your spouse I am obedient to our marriage vows because we are married, and that validates our marriage. In a perfect marriage, you go well beyond your marriage vows not as validation of being married, but because you fully and truly love your spouse.
    I am obedient to our marriage because I love my wife and am already married, not in order to fall in love with my wife and become married. My obedience to our marriage validates my love for my wife. I am obedient to the Lord because I have a love relationship with Him and am already saved, not in order to establish a love relationship with Him and become saved. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) We must not put the cart before the horse.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  7. #22

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    I am new to the forum. I have not figured out how to capture and highlight the specific sections. I will try to address as a whole.

    Simply put I agree that our works show our salvation. Without the “validation” of our works there is no salvation.

    However, what I am saying is that the “validation” of works is a decision that must be made continuously. Love itself is an accumulation of the decisions that we make for the ones that we love.

    In other words, salvation is the washing away of our former sins, that we have repented for and have made a decision to never return to and the decisions that we make to be obedient to the one that we love.

    It is not a question of how much “works” we need to be saved, because it is not the works that are the focal point. It is our love for Him that is our focus. It’s is not a “works” based salvation but a love based salvation displayed in our obedience. To whom we are obedient is the one that we love.

    I believe your are saying, that as a result of being saved (believing and repenting) we then consequently live a life full of works. Therefore we are saved.

    I am saying we have free will and our beliefs, repentance and our obedience (out of our love for Jesus and our Father) together is what causes our relationship to be fostered and to grow into a relationship that will cause us be able to be stand in the presence of our Father for all eternity. Therefore we are saved.

    God never takes away are abilities to make actual good conscious decisions to love Him and to be obedient to Him. Of course, that is the definition of growing in His knowledge. The more we grow the more we can make conscious decisions to believe, repent, and be obedient. To fall in love with Him, the way He has fallen in love with us. Everything He has done for us is for love. So He see us loving Him with our “eyes wide open”. We make decisions to love Him and that is what He is looking for.

    Which is our good and acceptable service.

    The reason that salvation cannot exist without obedience is the same reason intimate relationships cannot exist without love.

  8. #23

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Another point I want to make is this: John 17:3. Is about making a conscious decision to know the Father and Jesus, intimately, experientially by reading, study, and walking out His Word in complete obedience. This a part and parcel to eternal life.

  9. #24

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    We can see from these two verses that making decisions to believe and to repent are not all that is needed for salvation. We need knowledge, belief, repentance and obedience for eternal life. (Not belief, repentance and “validation”) unless by validation you mean love.

    We actually need much more like love, bearing good fruit... A life dedicated to Him.

    All of it done with our God given ability to make decisions and to direct our hearts towards Him.

  10. #25

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Furthermore, keep in mind that we are not married to Him yet. We are only engaged waiting to be joined with Him at some point in the future.

  11. #26
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    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufword View Post
    John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    We can see from these two verses that making decisions to believe and to repent are not all that is needed for salvation. We need knowledge, belief, repentance and obedience for eternal life. (Not belief, repentance and “validation”) unless by validation you mean love.

    We actually need much more like love, bearing good fruit... A life dedicated to Him.

    All of it done with our God given ability to make decisions and to direct our hearts towards Him.
    Your remarks are conflicting, making it impossible to understand where you stand. You said: "making decisions to believe and to repent are not all that is needed for salvation" But you are wrong because belief and repentance are ALL that is required for salvation. Knowledge, bearing fruit and other virtues come later.

    To put it simply, Paul said "with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation" Rom 10:10.

  12. #27
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    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ufword View Post
    John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the son has eternal life, whoever does not obey the son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    We can see from these two verses that making decisions to believe and to repent are not all that is needed for salvation. We need knowledge, belief, repentance and obedience for eternal life. (Not belief, repentance and “validation”) unless by validation you mean love.

    We actually need much more like love, bearing good fruit... A life dedicated to Him.

    All of it done with our God given ability to make decisions and to direct our hearts towards Him.
    I often hear those who teach salvation by works quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follows belief. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son.

    *If John wanted to make "obedience" the central theme in receiving salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son. Just as in Romans 10:16, we read - "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report." We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel.

    The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV translation says "rejects the Son" and the CSB translation says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." So in John 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

    To repent and believe is all that is needed on our part in order to receive salvation (Luke 24:47; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 3:19; 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:39; 16:31; 20:21; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  13. #28

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    I believe that salvation begins at Romans 10:10 but it is not the whole picture of salvation. The whole picture of salvation are all of the many salvation scriptures that run throughout the whole word of God. One cannot take one verse and say that is it. We must look at all the pertaining scriptures. Ultimately it is our desire to know, understand, and to follow His word with our whole heart and mind that builds our relationship with Him and brings us salvation.


    Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 22-23, John 3:36 tells us our salvation walk must include obedience. Obedience is so important because it goes hand in hand with repentance.


    John 17:3 tell us that our salvation must include knowing Him.


    We know we must also: follow Him, imitate Him, be known by Him, love Him, be a reflection of His love to others etc...


    Yes I agree it follows our “confession of faith”. They are eventual requirements nonetheless. We can call it our walk, or our growth, or growing in the knowledge of, or our endurance, or fighting the good fight... it our relationship with Him that begins with our prayer of salvation and continues to grow as we continue to grow in our knowledge, understanding, love and committed desire to please Him and not ourselves.


    Our ultimate judgement being a judgement not of our “confession of faith” but our heart that belongs to Him.


    Here is a great understanding of “saved by grace” which is how we have always been saved since the foundation of the earth.


    Ezekiel 18:21-32

  14. #29

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    I believe you got it exactly backwards to say that someone would “be obedient by only believing” is like saying “even though you don’t necessarily believe go ahead and obey”. No obedience will always only follow belief. When we believe in Him with an honest and true heart, of course, we have obedience. Obedience is the result of believing to an honest heart. It is the good soil of the believer.

    Furthermore that message is confirmed all over His word. Including: Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-23...

    We can go on and on about loving Him and our obedience. The very idea of loving speaks of our obedience. The idea that salvation (as a true honest relationship with our savior) can be separated from our love and obedience to Him is without merit. It only means that our true love and therefore our obedience is actually directed in another direction. Whoever it is that is where we will find our truest relationship.

  15. #30

    Re: Old Testment New Testment ?

    Eph. 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Eph. 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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