View Poll Results: Re: Rev 13 and Rev 17 Beast: Is the...

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  • fatal wound and "is not" the same?

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  • fatal wound and "is not" related?

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  • fatal wound and "is not" different?

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Thread: Is not, or is?

  1. #1
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    Is not, or is?

    I'm having trouble with one of the most difficult prophecies in the Bible...again! I've held to several different views on this, and I've never really been 100% satisfied that my interpretation fits the ideas presented by the revelation.

    The Beast has a few things said about it, and I'm wondering if they are all related, the same, or different events?

    1) Rev 13.3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

    2) Rev 17.
    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will b
    e astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    Are these two items the same? Are they related? Are they different? Does the Beast represent a person or an empire, with respect to its "wound?"

  2. #2
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    The beast is an 8th empire. John is looking at the 7 heads. He sees that "one of them has had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. " The healed head is therefore of the 7, and is not the 8th

    However it is the 8th that will re-appear to amaze the world.

    To understand this better one can compare the two part Rome of Daniel 2 to the two part beast of Rev 13. Unless there are 4 powerful entities at the end, it is likely that the two part religious empire of Rev 13 is healed Rome. Istanbul Caliphate and Roman Vatican act as one healed false prophet beast/empire supporting a NEW capital city to rule for 42 months, Jerusalem, re-arisen apostate Israel.

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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm having trouble with one of the most difficult prophecies in the Bible...again! I've held to several different views on this, and I've never really been 100% satisfied that my interpretation fits the ideas presented by the revelation.

    The Beast has a few things said about it, and I'm wondering if they are all related, the same, or different events?

    1) Rev 13.[FONT="]3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

    2) Rev 17.[/FONT]
    8 [FONT="]The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] and go to its destruction.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] The inhabitants of the earth[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] whose names have not been written in the book of life[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] from the creation of the world will b[/FONT]
    [FONT="]e astonished[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] when they see the beast, because it once was, now is n[/FONT][FONT="]ot, and yet will come.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=""]Are these two items the same? Are they related? Are they different? Does the Beast represent a person or an empire, with respect to its "wound?"[/FONT]
    The problem is that people can't relate the beast to being at the same time a demon an empire and a person.

    The beast is in the spirit of antichrist so below we have the real Christ

    Revelation 1:8
    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Now the beast is anti that

    Revelation 17:8
    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

    See the difference?

    A single person can't fulfill all of the descriptions of the beast. So I see the fatal wound as the description of the condition of an empire and the "once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction" as the demon who influences an empire described in the verses below

    Revelation 9:1 & 11
    1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

    11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

    Now the people of the beast as the kings

    Revelation 17:10
    10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while

  4. #4
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Darn! I voted fatal wound and "is not" are different. I meant to say, the "is not" of verse 8 and verse 11 is, as you say, the same as the "fatal wound." However, the "is not yet come" of verse 10 is different. That is because it is a broad sweep of history, but verse 8 and 11 (and chapter 13) zeroes in to the last manifestation of the Beast.

    Speaking of "heads", my head works best with diagrams. so here is one that displays the 7 beasts of Revelation with the 4 beasts of Daniel. The timeline at the end differentiates between the 7th and 8th beast.

    .
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  5. #5
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm having trouble with one of the most difficult prophecies in the Bible...again! I've held to several different views on this, and I've never really been 100% satisfied that my interpretation fits the ideas presented by the revelation.

    The Beast has a few things said about it, and I'm wondering if they are all related, the same, or different events?

    1) Rev 13.3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

    2) Rev 17.
    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will b
    e astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    Are these two items the same? Are they related? Are they different? Does the Beast represent a person or an empire, with respect to its "wound?"
    The Beast of Revelation is undoubtedly a man. Much mischief can be made if we change the CONSTANT "HIM" to an "IT". The full context of Revelation 13:3 is verses 1-4.

    1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
    2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"


    Just as many prophecies like the bones and sticks of Ezekiel 37, the prophet uses imagery to save words. But scripture is true to mention realities elsewhere so that we can interpret scripture with scripture. The reality of the symbols of Chapter 13 are in Revelation 17:8-13.
    1. John stood on the "sand of the sea". Israel is promised to be as numerous as the "sand of the sea shore", so John sees the subject of the prophecy from Israel, or Israel's point of view. It is, in Matthew 24 that those in Judea will "See the Abomination of Desolation" caused by a Roman Prince (Dan.9)
    2. The Beast rises UP from OUT of the sea. The "sea" in parable is the nations, and the sea can also mean "death". The Beast (i) comes from the nations, and (ii) is resurrected UP and OUT of death. In Revelation 17:11 the Beast is ONE of FIVE kings of John's time who had already died, who though slain rises in resurrection to become the eighth
    3. Seven Heads of Chapter 13 are the SEVEN KINGS of Chapter 13. They ruled a City with SEVEN HILLS. "One IS" in 17:10. John wrote in 95 AD. At that time Rome was the world power and a Caesar was THEN king.
    4. The "HEADS" are "kings" (17:10). This king was "wounded unto death" but rises UP OUT of death in both Chapters 13 and 17.
    5. The "horns" are the TEN KINGS that give the beast all power in 17:12-13. They have "crowns". "Crowns" are for ruling.
    6. In Chapter 13 the Beast rises UP OUT of death, and in Chapter 17 is in the "bottomless pit". A NATION cannot be there. That is an absurdity. But a MAN in Hades can be there. A NATION does not rise out of the Bottomless Pit. God made the NATIONS at Babylon. A NATION cannot go into perdition. It can go into poverty and ruin, but not into Hades, or Tartaroo. A MAN can.

    In Chapter 13 we have the symbolism of this prophecy, and in Chapter 17 the literal explanations. All indications are that the Beast is a MAN. He is;
    • a "Prince" of a people in Daniel 9
    • he is always referred to as a "HE"
    • he is a "king"
    • he is presently in Hades were all dead men go
    • he will go to the Lake of Fire which only men, angels and demons go
    • he sits in the Holy of Holies and calls himself God. Can a NATION fit into this small place?



    For reference I add the pertinent verses of Chapter 17 below.

    8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast."

  6. #6
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The problem is that people can't relate the beast to being at the same time a demon an empire and a person.

    The beast is in the spirit of antichrist so below we have the real Christ

    Revelation 1:8
    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Now the beast is anti that

    Revelation 17:8
    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

    See the difference?

    A single person can't fulfill all of the descriptions of the beast. So I see the fatal wound as the description of the condition of an empire and the "once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction" as the demon who influences an empire described in the verses below

    Revelation 9:1 & 11
    1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

    11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

    Now the people of the beast as the kings

    Revelation 17:10
    10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while
    A lot of truth here. In one sense a beast is a demon king. This is why the four beasts are four kings in Daniel 7 yet each last for hundreds of years.

    A demon king manifests in both earthly kingdoms and earthly kings. This includes the antichrist, who is a human king who represents the demon/beast's kingdom

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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    A lot of truth here. In one sense a beast is a demon king. This is why the four beasts are four kings in Daniel 7 yet each last for hundreds of years.

    A demon king manifests in both earthly kingdoms and earthly kings. This includes the antichrist, who is a human king who represents the demon/beast's kingdom
    Thanks ddude...............

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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Darn! I voted fatal wound and "is not" are different. I meant to say, the "is not" of verse 8 and verse 11 is, as you say, the same as the "fatal wound." However, the "is not yet come" of verse 10 is different. That is because it is a broad sweep of history, but verse 8 and 11 (and chapter 13) zeroes in to the last manifestation of the Beast.

    Speaking of "heads", my head works best with diagrams. so here is one that displays the 7 beasts of Revelation with the 4 beasts of Daniel. The timeline at the end differentiates between the 7th and 8th beast.

    .
    Thanks cyberseeker

  9. #9
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Did any of these replies help you out Randy?

  10. #10
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Did any of these replies help you out Randy?
    When I don't reply I'm thinking....
    I'm stuck somewhere between the "7th king" theory, in that thread, and this one.

  11. #11
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Oh the thinks you can think!
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  12. #12
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    1) Rev 13.[FONT="]3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

    2) Rev 17.[/FONT]
    8 [FONT="]The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] and go to its destruction.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] The inhabitants of the earth[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] whose names have not been written in the book of life[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] from the creation of the world will b[/FONT]
    [FONT="]e astonished[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="] when they see the beast, because it once was, now is n[/FONT][FONT="]ot, and yet will come.

    [/FONT]
    Are these two items the same? Are they related? Are they different?
    THE BEAST "YET IS"

    Rev 17
    8A The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
    8B and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    From the verse above we can make the following conclusion "yet is" = beast ascend from the pit. This event correlates then with Rev 13 with the beast ascending from the "sea". Hence the "sea" itself is not the pit proper but lies in the earth beneath this part of the sea mass.


    THE BEAST "IS NOT"

    Prior to this ascension in Rev 13. We see the beast in a battle. Would not a mortal wound come from a battle? Thus in this battle is where the beast receives his wound and then his ascension would represent his head being healed. Thus the beast "is not" as he is cut down to the ground/pit.

    Rev 12
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    THE BEAST "WAS"

    In the same chapter 12 we see the beast in heaven which is the understanding "which was"...….in heaven.


    THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, YET IS

    The understanding in that the beast which was in heaven will be cut down due to the battle and mortal wound and is not in heaven will then again upon the earth.


    Does the Beast represent a person or an empire, with respect to its "wound?"

    Well if the wound takes place in heaven then it would not be a person. However the wound healed will be in form of a person…..Rev 13.

  13. #13
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    Re: Is not, or is?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The problem is that people can't relate the beast to being at the same time a demon an empire and a person.

    The beast is in the spirit of antichrist so below we have the real Christ

    Revelation 1:8
    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Now the beast is anti that

    Revelation 17:8
    8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.

    See the difference?

    Or do you mean the parallel? God's kingdom has thought to receive a mortal wound but will be healed ie 2nd coming. Note Satan is trying to counterfeit this coming and claim the head healed..

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    Re: Is not, or is?

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3469610]


    Or do you mean the parallel? God's kingdom has thought to receive a mortal wound but will be healed ie 2nd coming. Note Satan is trying to counterfeit this coming and claim the head healed..
    I do see the mortal wound as Rome's civil war which almost disintegrated the empire after Nero's death but it was revived when Vespasian took the throne

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    Re: Is not, or is?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    When I don't reply I'm thinking....
    I'm stuck somewhere between the "7th king" theory, in that thread, and this one.
    I know a lot of people believe the 4th beast of Daniel to be the beast out of the sea in Revelation but there is a fair bit of difference.

    The first 3 beast in Daniel are separate to the 4th beast but the beast in revelation actually has these descriptions of the first 3 beast in Daniel as part of him.

    Daniel's 4th beast ends up having 11 horns on him but revelations beast only has 10 horns

    Revelations beast has 7 heads but Daniel's 4th beast doesn't have any heads they are different for a reason

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