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Thread: Unto Messiah the Prince

  1. #46

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Since we have too many choices for the start of Daniels 'weeks', it may be easier to begin with a more certain end date, and work backwards.

  2. #47
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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This is incorrect. The lunar month is either 29 or 30 days, and 12 lunar months is 354 days. By way of example, the Muslims used a solely lunar calendar of 354 days, and their holidays rotate through the seasons.
    I stand corrected. Yes the fewer six days makes sense.

  3. #48

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I stand corrected. Yes the fewer six days makes sense.
    Aren't there leap months in the Jewish calendar?

  4. #49
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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Aren't there leap months in the Jewish calendar?
    7 years out of 19, to keep the holidays in their correct seasons. Specifically Passover.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Aren't there leap months in the Jewish calendar?
    I'm not sure what they are called, but every now and then they re-align the month of Adar with spring by introducing a second Adar, thus Jewish years are seasonal just like our years. The 360 day year often used when discussing Dan 9 is a fallacy, because sometimes the year is 354 days as Fenris pointed out, and sometimes an extra month is added on. So our calendar and their calendar always have the same number of years over any given period.

  6. #51

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Also we have the timing of the priests of Israel to confirm the dates even though Artaxerxes was used for multiple kings, and claimants to the kingdom.
    Do you have a source where I can confirm the dates of the Persian empire from the priests of Israel? One Jewish source (Seder Olam Rabbah) has the second temple built in 352 BCE. I'm not endorsing that date either, but I'd like to understand why you are confident about the traditional chronology of the Persian empire.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Since we have too many choices for the start of Daniels 'weeks', it may be easier to begin with a more certain end date, and work backwards.
    Actually we don't have too many choices. It is very simple.
    We either look for a decree of man, in which case you have about four to consider - and I would agree this becomes an issue, or you look for the Word of the Lord, in which case you have two.
    As for the end date - you have almost as many as looking for the decree of man.

  8. #53
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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    1) I agree that they use an additional month, I mentioned the additional Adar in my post, hope you read it
    I did get you added the additional month, but your length of year was wrong. It actually is more accurate han the picture you paint.

    2) My view agrees with that. My focus is on verse 25, the "word" about the promised anointed one.
    Verse 25 is not about a decree of Man, therefore NOT about Artaxerxes. It is about the Word of God going forth, to which His anointed then brings about the fulfillment of it.

    3) I see the possibility in your view, but I feel to add 49 and 434 together is acceptable. You state your alternative possibility without proving its advantage, or pointing out why my view is impossible.
    From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench
    The advantage of my view is TWO-FOLD.
    Firstly it sticks to the wording given, namely a period of 7 weeks and a period of 62 weeks. Verse 26 also states 62 weeks NOT 69 weeks and so we should follow as stated.
    Secondly, and this is important, there is a gap in time between the anointed one who comes 7 weeks AFTER God's Word went forth and the start of the 62 weeks once the city with streets is built.

    4) Looking at the verse itself, it does not suggest what you are saying
    Actually it does. The problem is that in the KJV it isn't very clear - though it is there. We aren't used to dealing with such complex sentences normally.
    Here is the ESV:
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[a] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

    5) You are correct that there were earlier decrees that started the process. Artaxerxes decree completed it by giving Israel and Jerusalem actual authority in the region, and the finance necessary to complete the process. I see no reason to exclude his decree from the possibilities.
    Nope, Artaxerxes didn't issue a decree in 458 BC. Further his decree didn't give any greater authority than any ALREADY given.
    Part of the problem is that you are assuming you KNOW which Artaxerxes is in view.
    Nor did that decree give additional funding.

    6) You obviously prefer the later crucifixion date, I go with spring 30AD, his ministry starting 3.5 years earlier in the autumn of 26AD. That is an entire debate worthy of its own thread
    It isn't simply a question of preferring. It is the ONLY date which fits with what Luke wrote. It is also the ONLY date whihc matches with HOW the Romans counted and what archaeology shows us, as well as the timing of other events afterwards, also recorded by Luke, in Acts.

    7) I completely agree, that is my view too
    8) Jesus preached specifically to the Jews for 3.5 years. That is fact. His sacrifice on earth then came to an end.
    Did He? Or was it almost 4 years? Further His sacrifice didn't LAST for 3.5 years. It was a once only sacrifice. Further He is not fulfilling verse 27.

  9. #54
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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Do you have a source where I can confirm the dates of the Persian empire from the priests of Israel? One Jewish source (Seder Olam Rabbah) has the second temple built in 352 BCE. I'm not endorsing that date either, but I'd like to understand why you are confident about the traditional chronology of the Persian empire.
    By itself I don't believe you can. Rather you need to mix information from Josephus and Ezra, Nehemiah plus other sources.
    IOW when you have set dates which can be verified, then you can cross-check with other statements.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Since we have too many choices for the start of Daniels 'weeks', it may be easier to begin with a more certain end date, and work backwards.
    Or even a date as anchor to go back and fourth like from the decree by Cyrus to go back and rebuild Jerusalem

    Daniel 9:25
    25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble

  11. #56
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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I did get you added the additional month, but your length of year was wrong. It actually is more accurate han the picture you paint.


    Verse 25 is not about a decree of Man, therefore NOT about Artaxerxes. It is about the Word of God going forth, to which His anointed then brings about the fulfillment of it.


    The advantage of my view is TWO-FOLD.
    Firstly it sticks to the wording given, namely a period of 7 weeks and a period of 62 weeks. Verse 26 also states 62 weeks NOT 69 weeks and so we should follow as stated.
    Secondly, and this is important, there is a gap in time between the anointed one who comes 7 weeks AFTER God's Word went forth and the start of the 62 weeks once the city with streets is built.


    Actually it does. The problem is that in the KJV it isn't very clear - though it is there. We aren't used to dealing with such complex sentences normally.
    Here is the ESV:
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[a] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


    Nope, Artaxerxes didn't issue a decree in 458 BC. Further his decree didn't give any greater authority than any ALREADY given.
    Part of the problem is that you are assuming you KNOW which Artaxerxes is in view.
    Nor did that decree give additional funding.


    It isn't simply a question of preferring. It is the ONLY date which fits with what Luke wrote. It is also the ONLY date whihc matches with HOW the Romans counted and what archaeology shows us, as well as the timing of other events afterwards, also recorded by Luke, in Acts.




    Did He? Or was it almost 4 years? Further His sacrifice didn't LAST for 3.5 years. It was a once only sacrifice. Further He is not fulfilling verse 27.
    I have to trust the Bible on the timeframe:

    """Some of the Israelites, including priests, Levites, musicians, gatekeepers and temple servants, also came up to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes.8 Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in the fifth month of the seventh year of the king. """

    Artaxerxes is definitely mentioned there. Artaxerxes started his reign in 465BC, the 7th year of Artaxerxes is then 458BC.

    Ezra arrived in Jerusalem in July/August of 458BC and soon issued Artaxerxes decree to the local leaders.

    God is however more interested in the spiritual restoration of Israel and Jerusalem, the more important decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem spiritually was issued in the 9th month
    ""A proclamation was then issued throughout Judah and Jerusalem for all the exiles to assemble in Jerusalem. 8 Anyone who failed to appear within three days would forfeit all his property, in accordance with the decision of the officials and elders, and would himself be expelled from the assembly of the exiles. 9 Within the three days, all the men of Judah and Benjamin had gathered in Jerusalem. And on the twentieth day of the ninth month, all the people were sitting in the square before the house of God""

    The proclamation to repent and restore Israel was issued in the 9th month, of the 7th year of Artaxerxes, November 458 BC.

    483 years later Jesus starts his ministry. 3.5 years later Jesus was crucified in the spring of 30 AD

  12. #57

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually we don't have too many choices. It is very simple.
    We either look for a decree of man, in which case you have about four to consider - and I would agree this becomes an issue, or you look for the Word of the Lord, in which case you have two.
    As for the end date - you have almost as many as looking for the decree of man.
    I don't disagree, I do not know to what the order or “command” to rebuild the temple applies. Some candidates are: the edict of the Persian King, Cyrus I in 538 BC, allowing the displaced tribes of Israel to return to their homeland after 70 years in Babylon; or it could be the decree of Persian King Artaxerxes I in 457 BC, allowing the restoration of local government and authority; or the warrant given to Nehemiah, who was appointed governor of Judea by Artazerxes I, to return to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in his first term in 445 BC; or in Nehemiah’s second term, between 431 to 401 BC, to restore the religious faith and temple practices.
    These will give various and for some, vague end dates. So I propose we start at the only certain date involved and work backwards to discover the original "command."

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Two significant things about the Messiah were this...His birth, and His death and resurrection. Not that there weren't other significant things. But unless He was born first, He for sure couldn't fulfill anything written of Him.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself....this obviously has His death and resurrection in focus, though not obvious to someone such as Fenris. Where in this prophecy does it have His birth in focus if unto the Messiah the Prince in verse 25 is not meaning His birth? Why would this prophecy ignore His birth altogether, as if His birth was no big deal? He had to initially arrive somehow didn't He? And wasn't that when He was born?

  14. #59

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself....this obviously has His death and resurrection in focus, though not obvious to someone such as Fenris. Where in this prophecy does it have His birth in focus if unto the Messiah the Prince in verse 25 is not meaning His birth? Why would this prophecy ignore His birth altogether, as if His birth was no big deal? He had to initially arrive somehow didn't He? And wasn't that when He was born?
    I think Daniel makes no mention of Christ's birth, I think he is referring to Christ's return.

  15. #60

    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Two significant things about the Messiah were this...His birth, and His death and resurrection. Not that there weren't other significant things. But unless He was born first, He for sure couldn't fulfill anything written of Him.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself....this obviously has His death and resurrection in focus, though not obvious to someone such as Fenris. Where in this prophecy does it have His birth in focus if unto the Messiah the Prince in verse 25 is not meaning His birth? Why would this prophecy ignore His birth altogether, as if His birth was no big deal? He had to initially arrive somehow didn't He? And wasn't that when He was born?
    Daniel makes reference to two abominations being set up, both of them are associated with the end of the sacrifices in the temple. The first was temporary and the second permanent. Historically, the sacrifices did stop twice, and we know the dates of both instances.
    For the second instance, Daniel places the end of sacrifices in the middle of the last 'week', or seven year period. We can then calculate the beginning and end of the final week.

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