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Thread: Unto Messiah the Prince

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    Unto Messiah the Prince

    An unusual thought just crossed my mind for some reason, just this morning. Weeks are involved in the Daniel 9 prophecy. What do weeks involve? They involve multiples of 7. So I then decided to get the Windows Calc running and do some figuring.

    How many weeks in a month? 4. How many days in a week? 7. 7x4=28 days. How many months in a year? 12. 12x28 days=336 days per year. How many weeks until Messiah? 69 weeks. How many years are 69 weeks? 483 years. 483 years x 336 days=162,288 days.

    1 tropical year =365.242 days

    162,288 days divided by 365.242 days=444.36 years.

    If we start from 444 BC, what would be the date 444 years later, taking into account leap years, etc? It would be just prior to the beginning of AD, would it not? What's interesting about this is this.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
    2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

    This might explain how they knew when to start looking for His birth. Verse 2 says....where is he that is born King of the Jews? Any reason why unto Messiah the Prince can not be referring to is born King of the Jews ?

    Keep in mind that I'm not claiming anything as fact here. I just have to wonder though why this came to mind in the first place?
    Hopefully ForHisglory is able to chime in here. I would like his opinion for sure.

    BTW I don't expect anyone to ever adopt this view. I doubt that I adopt it myself unless someone thinks I could be on to something here.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    How many weeks in a month? 4. How many days in a week? 7. 7x4=28 days. How many months in a year? 12. 12x28 days=336 days per year. How many weeks until Messiah? 69 weeks. How many years are 69 weeks? 483 years. 483 years x 336 days=162,288 days.
    Nobody counts years this way. There are not 4 weeks in a month under any reckoning. The Jews used a lunar calendar where each month was 29 or 30 days. 12 lunar months is 354 days. This is short of a solar year by 11 days. Since Passover had to fall out in the spring, a leap month was added 7 out of every 19 years.

    If you're going to invent your own math you can prove basically anything, including that 1=0. Have at it.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Nobody counts years this way. There are not 4 weeks in a month under any reckoning. The Jews used a lunar calendar where each month was 29 or 30 days. 12 lunar months is 354 days. This is short of a solar year by 11 days. Since Passover had to fall out in the spring, a leap month was added 7 out of every 19 years.

    If you're going to invent your own math you can prove basically anything, including that 1=0. Have at it.
    I never counted that way myself until just a little earlier. But I do find it interesting that if one starts from 444 BC, and then uses this math above, it seems to maybe lead to Matthew 2:1 . Something has to be able to explain how they knew this was the correct time to start looking for His birth, otherwise how did they know this was the correct time? What were they basing that on? I don't know why I'm asking you these things though, the fact you flat out reject that Jesus is the promised Messiah?

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Nobody counts years this way. There are not 4 weeks in a month under any reckoning. The Jews used a lunar calendar where each month was 29 or 30 days. 12 lunar months is 354 days. This is short of a solar year by 11 days. Since Passover had to fall out in the spring, a leap month was added 7 out of every 19 years.

    If you're going to invent your own math you can prove basically anything, including that 1=0. Have at it.
    Keep in mind though, as to 7 days in a week, there most def aren't 5 weeks in a month consisting of 7 days a week. That would total 35 days a month, keeping in mind, the number 7 being the key number here.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I never counted that way myself until just a little earlier. But I do find it interesting that if one starts from 444 BC, and then uses this math above, it seems to maybe lead to Matthew 2:1 . Something has to be able to explain how they knew this was the correct time to start looking for His birth, otherwise how did they know this was the correct time? What were they basing that on? I don't why I'm asking you though, the fact you flat out reject that Jesus is the promised Messiah?
    The NT narrative doesn't require that level of introspection.

    Remember, the narrative says that after Jesus was born, the Magi came.
    They stopped to talk to Herod first.
    They tell Herod, "Hey, two years ago, we saw this great sign in the heavens and we've done the math and determined that the sign was showing over Bethlehem."
    Herod asks his scholars, "Dudes, where is this Messiah supposed to be born?"
    They say, "Bethlehem".
    Herod says, "Two years ago?"
    The 3 Smart Dudes say, "Yep, 2 years ago."
    Herod says, "Great, go find him and bring him here."

    Then he sends out the Goons to slaughter every male child in the area 2 years old or younger.

    Herod got his 2 years from the Magi.
    The Magi did not get their visit timing from Scripture, and if they did, they were 2 years two later.

    Jesus wasn't in Bethlehem 2 years after his birth. He was in a house.
    Probably in Nazareth.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post

    If you're going to invent your own math you can prove basically anything, including that 1=0. Have at it.
    Just for the record, until I tried that math, I had no clue in the world that it would add up to around 444 years at the end of it. So either a bizarre coincidence that it did, or maybe something else instead, like what I'm proposing as a possibility, that Dan 9 maybe has the Messiah's birth in view, as to unto the Messiah.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I never counted that way myself until just a little earlier. But I do find it interesting that if one starts from 444 BC, and then uses this math above, it seems to maybe lead to Matthew 2:1 . Something has to be able to explain how they knew this was the correct time to start looking for His birth, otherwise how did they know this was the correct time? What were they basing that on? I don't know why I'm asking you these things though, the fact you flat out reject that Jesus is the promised Messiah?
    Matthew says that they knew because they saw His star rise

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    The NT narrative doesn't require that level of introspection.

    Remember, the narrative says that after Jesus was born, the Magi came.
    They stopped to talk to Herod first.
    They tell Herod, "Hey, two years ago, we saw this great sign in the heavens and we've done the math and determined that the sign was showing over Bethlehem."
    Herod asks his scholars, "Dudes, where is this Messiah supposed to be born?"
    They say, "Bethlehem".
    Herod says, "Two years ago?"
    The 3 Smart Dudes say, "Yep, 2 years ago."
    Herod says, "Great, go find him and bring him here."

    Then he sends out the Goons to slaughter every male child in the area 2 years old or younger.

    Herod got his 2 years from the Magi.
    The Magi did not get their visit timing from Scripture, and if they did, they were 2 years two later.

    Jesus wasn't in Bethlehem 2 years after his birth. He was in a house.
    Probably in Nazareth.
    At the time then, no one whatsoever was anticipating that it was getting close to the time for the Messiah to appear, meaning some already realizing this before He does appear, meaning His birth?

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Matthew says that they knew because they saw His star rise
    I direct you to post #8 then. What are your thoughts about that?

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    At the time then, no one whatsoever was anticipating that it was getting close to the time for the Messiah to appear, meaning some already realizing this before He does appear, meaning His birth?
    Nothing in the texts indicates anything of the sort that I'm aware of.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Just for the record, until I tried that math, I had no clue in the world that it would add up to around 444 years at the end of it. So either a bizarre coincidence that it did, or maybe something else instead,
    It's nothing, Jesus wasn't even born in the year zero. Probably like 4BC. Which adds up to nothing.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I direct you to post #8 then. What are your thoughts about that?
    They had some type of divine knowledge as Matthew does state that it was the star who told them follow and they were also informed information in their dreams

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Any reason why unto Messiah the Prince can not be referring to is born King of the Jews ?
    There is 30 years from being born King of the Jews to unto Messiah the prince.
    John the Baptist recognized Jesus as the Messiah only at his Baptism.


    Jn 1
    29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.”
    32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    An unusual thought just crossed my mind for some reason, just this morning. Weeks are involved in the Daniel 9 prophecy. What do weeks involve? They involve multiples of 7. So I then decided to get the Windows Calc running and do some figuring.

    How many weeks in a month? 4. How many days in a week? 7. 7x4=28 days. How many months in a year? 12. 12x28 days=336 days per year. How many weeks until Messiah? 69 weeks. How many years are 69 weeks? 483 years. 483 years x 336 days=162,288 days.

    1 tropical year =365.242 days

    162,288 days divided by 365.242 days=444.36 years.

    If we start from 444 BC, what would be the date 444 years later, taking into account leap years, etc? It would be just prior to the beginning of AD, would it not? What's interesting about this is this.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
    2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

    This might explain how they knew when to start looking for His birth. Verse 2 says....where is he that is born King of the Jews? Any reason why unto Messiah the Prince can not be referring to is born King of the Jews ?

    Keep in mind that I'm not claiming anything as fact here. I just have to wonder though why this came to mind in the first place?
    Hopefully ForHisglory is able to chime in here. I would like his opinion for sure.

    BTW I don't expect anyone to ever adopt this view. I doubt that I adopt it myself unless someone thinks I could be on to something here.
    A couple of thoughts.
    I think the wise men could calculate it, but not based on this calculation. They were not counting weeks of days but weeks of years.
    Further they were not counting 69 weeks until the Messiah.
    They would have understood that there was 7 weeks UNTIL Messiah (Verse 25)
    Then they would have understood 62 weeks FROM the city being built (including plaza's and streets), which was no then from 444 BC but slightly later (around 435 BC)
    62 weeks of years is 62 x 7 = 434 years.
    Now they may have started looking from around 10 BC (which would be counting from 444 BC), but I think they started expecting around 2 BC.
    Unsurprisingly that is when Jesus was born, just as prophesied in Daniel.

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    Re: Unto Messiah the Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    The NT narrative doesn't require that level of introspection.

    Remember, the narrative says that after Jesus was born, the Magi came.
    They stopped to talk to Herod first.
    They tell Herod, "Hey, two years ago, we saw this great sign in the heavens and we've done the math and determined that the sign was showing over Bethlehem."
    Herod asks his scholars, "Dudes, where is this Messiah supposed to be born?"
    They say, "Bethlehem".
    Herod says, "Two years ago?"
    The 3 Smart Dudes say, "Yep, 2 years ago."
    Herod says, "Great, go find him and bring him here."

    Then he sends out the Goons to slaughter every male child in the area 2 years old or younger.

    Herod got his 2 years from the Magi.
    The Magi did not get their visit timing from Scripture, and if they did, they were 2 years two later.

    Jesus wasn't in Bethlehem 2 years after his birth. He was in a house.
    Probably in Nazareth.
    Errors in this -
    We know that Jesus wasn't in Nazareth when the Magi came. Matt 2 shows that after being directed to Bethlehem they saw the star they had previously seen.
    This Matthew linked to the prophecy of Micah 5 which specifies Bethlehem.

    It also was less than two years, but Herod could easily go beyond the date to be sure he would catch Jesus - we also don't know how long he waited or having been tricked how much additional time he might have added.

    Matt 2:22 shows that Joseph planed to return to Bethlehem, but then went to Galilee.

    Herod therefore did NOT get his two years from the Magi - rather it is what he calculated thinking himself tricked in some way.
    The Magi did get their timing from what they knew - though they did not have all scriptures, but almost certainly Daniel's.
    They were not two years later, but probably around 5 - 6 months.
    They had a confirmation of what they were expecting through the stars.

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