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Thread: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    I am also like Forhisgloy in that I wonder what happens during that time after the last cycle

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is a counting of years, as there is an EXPLICIT Sabbath cycle given which is to be kept. This is a problem as there is no 50 year cycle.
    .
    Or, maybe there is a 50 year cycle.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The 49th year is ALREADY hallowed - for it is the Sabbath year. Would NOT be a Sabbath Year IF the cycle was 50 years long.
    And God says to make holy the 50th year. If you're planting and whatever, in what way is it "holy"?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    For me the Jubilees are found in Daniel 9 prophecy, along with the Sabbaths - for it is stated:
    Dan 9:24* “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place..."

    Now the word translated weeks is from the Hebrew:
    שְׁבֻעָה*** שָׁבֻעַ*** שָׁבוּעַ
    shâbûa‛*** shâbûa‛*** shebû‛âh
    shaw-boo'-ah, shaw-boo'-ah, sheb-oo-aw'
    Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years): - seven, week.

    Now the word for Sabbath is:
    שַׁבָּת
    shabbâth
    shab-bawth'
    Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - *(+ every) sabbath.

    And we find the root of the word is the same - sh b

    So these sevens are sabbaths, or weeks of years.

    This is especially important when we read Jeremiah who says:
    Jer 17:27* But if you do not listen to me, to keep the Sabbath day holy, and not to bear a burden and enter by the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem and shall not be quenched.’”

    And this:
    2Ch 36:21* to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    This word is stated in Jer 25 and 27.

    So we find the Sabbath tied into the exile and into prophecy.
    Now the Year f Jubilee is also a Sabbath when the land lies fallow.

    We might not be certain of when the Sabbath cycle is, but we KNOW that after the 70 years it enjoyed the Sabbaths it had missed and therefore was back on track.
    So if we know what year that was then we know when a NEW Sabbath cycle AND probably Jubilee cycle starts.
    The 70th year ended in 536 BC.
    This would put 535 BC as the Jubilee Year, as this was the year when they could return. Further it would have been announced in the preceding year, which was the 70th from captivity, just as the Jubilee is announced in the preceding year.
    Further we know from Ezra 3, that the first festival they kept was that of Booths, which is the late Harvest. No mention of a Passover. The following year they start building the temple and lay the foundations.
    So it seems that first year they also did not plant crops.
    So 49 years later from 535 BC is 486 BC and so 485 BC would be a Jubilee.
    If I put the Jubilees down, then we find the next is 436, then 387, 338, 289, 240, 191, 152, 103, 54 and 5 BC. Now as there is no year zero the next Jubilee would be in 44 BC.
    So I find that IF we utilise events as specified in Jeremiah and Daniel and cross connect we don't have 31 AD as a Jubilee year.
    I think that date was chosen as being a Jubilee simply because Jesus read from Isaiah ad said this was fulfilled. However Jesus was NOT saying this year is Jubilee. They would have known this IF Jubilees were being kept - rather Jesus was saying that the things which are found in the Jubilee are found IN Him.

    Interestingly enough, my Sabbath cycle means that 70 AD would have been a Sabbath year meaning that they would have two years of crops in 69 AD.
    They did seem to have plenty of food, but internal dissensions meant that what should have lasted was destroyed by Zealots and so Jerusalem fell.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And God says to make holy the 50th year. If you're planting and whatever, in what way is it "holy"?
    I didn't say you were planting. In fact I was saying the opposite.
    However just as a Sabbath which is part of a festival does NOT change the regular Sabbath, so the Jubilee does NOT change the regular Sabbath year.
    So the 49th Year is the regular Sabbath and the 50th year is an additional Sabbath.
    However the additional Sabbath doesn't change when the next Sabbath would be - for it is 7 years from the previous regular Sabbath.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Or, maybe there is a 50 year cycle.
    No, 50 doesn't divide by 7. The Sabbath cycle is every 7 years without fail, just as a Sabbath is the 7th day without fail regardless of any other additional Sabbaths there might be during the week.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, 50 doesn't divide by 7. The Sabbath cycle is every 7 years without fail, just as a Sabbath is the 7th day without fail regardless of any other additional Sabbaths there might be during the week.
    Says who? Really.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    For me the Jubilees are found in Daniel 9 prophecy, along with the Sabbaths - for it is stated:
    No, it isn't. It's talking about a 490 year period, nothing to do with the Jubilee year at all.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    No, it isn't. It's talking about a 490 year period, nothing to do with the Jubilee year at all.
    I agree it is about a 490 year period. A period of 70 Sabbaths.
    However it also speaks of the Jubilee - the return of the exiles to Israel.
    Lev 25:13* “In this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his property.

    Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—*
    Dan 9:2* in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    So 70 years, which 2 Chronicles connects to the Sabbaths:
    2Ch 36:21* to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    The Jubilee is intimately tied into the Sabbaths.
    You only KNOW the Jubilee because it comes after the 7th 7.

    So yes, it is about 490 years, but more specifically it is about 70 Sabbaths. Moreover that would mean 10 Jubilees IF they were consecutive.
    The Jubilee is about restoration and return as Lev 25 states.

    Dan 9 is about restoration and return.
    Dan 9:24* “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

    But I guess you might not like to join these dots.

  10. #115
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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree it is about a 490 year period. A period of 70 Sabbaths.
    Its a period of 70 times 7. That has nothing to do with the Shmitta year, unless the first year was specifically the first year of a 7 year cycle. But the text says absolutely nothing about that.
    However it also speaks of the Jubilee - the return of the exiles to Israel.
    Lev 25:13* “In this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his property.
    That has nothing to do with exiles returning. It's that every 50 years, land that was sold returning to the family that originally owned it when the Jews conquered the land.


    So 70 years, which 2 Chronicles connects to the Sabbaths:
    2Ch 36:21* to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.
    Again, nothing to do with Jubilees.

    So yes, it is about 490 years, but more specifically it is about 70 Sabbaths.
    No, more specifically it's about 490 years. Tying it together with Jeremiah's prophecy is meaningless. Jeremiah is talking about the period between the two temples and Daniel is talking about the second temple era only. This is a jumbled mishmash of nothing.


    Dan 9 is about restoration and return.
    Dan 9:24* “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
    No, I see it was a warning. "You have 490 years to set things right, or the temple will be destroyed and an exile will follow".
    But I guess you might not like to join these dots.
    The dots are all over the place. I don't see any reason to join them.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Says who? Really.
    Well you have the scriptures show me a single festival where the ADDITIONAL sabbath causes the regular Sabbath to change.
    Sorry but you can't find one.
    It doesn't happen at Passover or Booths nor any other time.

    Lev 23:7* On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.*
    Lev 23:8* But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”*

    Notice that the first day of Feast of Unleavened Bread is ALWAYS a Sabbath and so is the 7th day, but these do NOT often fall on a regular Sabbath.
    Instead it is always on the 15th day of the month.

    How about Shavuot?
    Lev 23:15* “You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.*
    Lev 23:16* You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the LORD.*

    This one most closely connects with Jubilee.
    Yet notice it is NOT a regular Sabbath day as it is counted 50 days from the Sabbath after the Wave offering, or 49 days after that 1st day.

    Lev 23:21* And you shall make a proclamation on the same day. You shall hold a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a statute forever in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.*

    Yet it IS a Sabbath.

    I'll let you check the rest but I am sure you will find that NOT a single ADDITIONAL Sabbath changes when the regular Sabbath happens.
    Why then do you claim the Jubilee is any different?

    Perhaps this verse might help you:
    Lev 25:21* I will command my blessing on you in the sixth year, so that it will produce a crop sufficient for three years.*
    Lev 25:22* When you sow in the eighth year, you will be eating some of the old crop; you shall eat the old until the ninth year, when its crop arrives.*

    Notice that the Sabbath is the 7th year. The 6th year was the last year of planting. It states you WILL SOW in the 8th year. Which means the count continues.
    yet it is in the 9th year when the crop of the 8th is harvested.

    So the sowing is AFTER the Jubilee officially ends.
    How does that work out?

    Lev 25:9* Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land.*
    Lev 25:10* And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, when each of you shall return to his property and each of you shall return to his clan.*
    Lev 25:11* That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of itself nor gather the grapes from the undressed vines.*
    Lev 25:12* For it is a jubilee. It shall be holy to you. You may eat the produce of the field.

    Well it seems that the time of Jubilee is from announced on the Day of Atonement and starts AFTER the Feast of Booths.
    Lev 23:39* “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD seven days. On the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest.

    So when normally you would be celebrating the Harvest in the Sabbath (when there is no Harvest), instead the Jubilee is announced and continues until the following
    Booths. It is after that when people would start sowing crops for the following years Passover / Wave offering - early harvest (Year 9).

    So to put it in order.
    Year 6 you sow in Summer and reap in Autumn (Booths), no subsequent sowing.
    Year 7 Passover (Wave) no harvest, no sowing.
    In a normal year, sowing after Autumn (Booths) to reap in the following Passover (Wave)
    However when Jubilee, in Autumn still no sowing.
    Year 8 Passover (Wave) no harvest, no sowing.
    Sowing after Booths
    Year 9 Passover (Wave) reaping harvest.

    In this way there is no sowing or reaping for an entire year with a normal Sabbath - though the period runs from after harvest in the preceding year (which is when sowing occurs) to the after the following Booths.
    This is why the announcement is made on the Day of Atonement.

    I know it has moved away from the initial claim, but I am just trying to deal with the Sabbaths and Jubilees and how they worked.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well you have the scriptures show me a single festival where the ADDITIONAL sabbath causes the regular Sabbath to change.
    Sorry but you can't find one.
    It doesn't happen at Passover or Booths nor any other time.
    Yes, because those are days of the week. We're talking about yearly periods here. Not the same thing at all.

    Lev 25:11* That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of itself nor gather the grapes from the undressed vines.*
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Its a period of 70 times 7. That has nothing to do with the Shmitta year, unless the first year was specifically the first year of a 7 year cycle. But the text says absolutely nothing about that. That has nothing to do with exiles returning. It's that every 50 years, land that was sold returning to the family that originally owned it when the Jews conquered the land.
    Of course it has to do with the Shmitta Year:
    I quoted it for you a few times:
    2Ch 36:21* to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    You see Dan 9 ties into the Word of the Lord given to Jeremiah:
    Dan 9:2* in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.*

    It is the SAME period.

    Again, nothing to do with Jubilees.
    What is Jubilees about?
    It is about what I quoted - return to the land, or land being returned.
    This is what God did for the exiles.

    He gave them the Jubilee.

    No, more specifically it's about 490 years. Tying it together with Jeremiah's prophecy is meaningless. Jeremiah is talking about the period between the two temples and Daniel is talking about the second temple era only. This is a jumbled mishmash of nothing.
    As Daniel sees it in connection with Jeremiah and as Ezra sees it in connection with Jeremiah, so it isn't meaningless.
    Daniel is NOT solely talking about the second temple era. He is shown God's plan for Daniel's people.

    No, I see it was a warning. "You have 490 years to set things right, or the temple will be destroyed and an exile will follow".
    Does anywhere in the prophecy say that? Nope.
    Further at the time of the prophecy there was no temple because it was ALREADY destroyed and the new had NOT been built.
    Additionally it states clearly there will be future abominations and desolation regardless of what is done.
    Verse 26 states it will be destroyed AFTER the 62 weeks period has ended when an Anointed one has been cut off.
    So there is no, set things right or else the temple is gone. It says the temple will again be destroyed along with the city - which supposes that a new temple will be built.
    Instead the view is of an end to the one who had made things desolate AND, the bringing in of everlasting righteousness and the anointing of the most holy.

    The dots are all over the place. I don't see any reason to join them.
    As the pieces are given to us, it is for us to accept that we were given them and put them together coherently.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Yes, because those are days of the week. We're talking about yearly periods here. Not the same thing at all.

    Lev 25:11* That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee for you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of itself nor gather the grapes from the undressed vines.*
    And? God started with DAYS and Feasts and then spoke of Years in the SAME manner.

    Further as I also gave you, the Jubilee is but an ordinary year, it is counted as the 8th followed by a ninth, and when you come to the 14th it is a Sabbath AGAIN.
    Lev 25:22 makes it clear, but I did break down the rest for you.

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    Re: Genesis 6:3 - Jubilees

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Of course it has to do with the Shmitta Year:
    I quoted it for you a few times:
    2Ch 36:21* to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths. All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

    You see Dan 9 ties into the Word of the Lord given to Jeremiah:
    Dan 9:2* in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.*

    It is the SAME period.
    The 70 years between the 2 temples are the same period as the 490 years the Daniel talks about? That doesn't make sense.

    What is Jubilees about?
    It is about what I quoted - return to the land, or land being returned.
    This is what God did for the exiles.
    The land being returned to the family who sold is completely different from exiles returning. You do know that, right?

    As Daniel sees it in connection with Jeremiah and as Ezra sees it in connection with Jeremiah, so it isn't meaningless.
    Daniel is NOT solely talking about the second temple era. He is shown God's plan for Daniel's people.
    Um, yeah he is.


    Does anywhere in the prophecy say that? Nope.
    It's exactly what the prophecy in verse 24 says.


    Further at the time of the prophecy there was no temple because it was ALREADY destroyed and the new had NOT been built.
    Yes, and the prophecy talks about it being built.

    Additionally it states clearly there will be future abominations and desolation regardless of what is done.
    Verse 26 states it will be destroyed AFTER the 62 weeks period has ended when an Anointed one has been cut off.
    So there is no, set things right or else the temple is gone. It says the temple will again be destroyed along with the city - which supposes that a new temple will be built.
    Yes, that's what verse 24 says. You have 7*70 years to set things right, or it's too late.

    As the pieces are given to us, it is for us to accept that we were given them and put them together coherently.
    Who is to say which person has put them together properly?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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