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Thread: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

  1. #46
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    What more can he do for us, as we can receive his Holy Spirit ?
    Yes!

    This is the pinnacle of the plan, fullfilled in fullness, for all the world [ and all mankind to see ]
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  2. #47
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Yes!

    This is the pinnacle of the plan, fullfilled in fullness, for all the world [ and all mankind to see ]
    Amen.

    I did edit that post you quoted that is now on the previous page.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #48
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If a premise is doubtful, can the rest of the calculation carry weight? Daniel 9:24 says;

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    1. God has set aside seventy SEVENS in PROPHECY
    2. In PROPHECY a day is a year (Num.14:34; Isa.61:2, 63:4; Ezek.4:6)
    3. They pertain to "Daniel's People" exclusively

    So we have a prophecy concerning Daniel's People - Israel, that takes 490 years. This calculation you agree with by coming out at 27 AD. But now you have to show Israel;
    • to have a HOLY CITY. But it is NOT HOLY. It is profaned by Gentiles and a Gentile Temple
    • to have finished THE transgression. No doubt it is the Abomination of Desolation
    • to have made an end to sins. Is this the case?
    • having had reconciliation for iniquity (singular) - which one
    • in a state of EVERLASTING righteousness - really?
    • having anointed the Most Holy

    It is when these ALL are accomplished that we could surmise that the VISION of the 70 SEVENs and the PROPHECY of the 70 SEVENs is "sealed up" or "accomplished" ("hatam" in the Hebrew).

    Added to this, if ALL the above were "accomplished" by 34 AD, how then is there NO CITY and NO Temple 36 years later. How come the last few of Daniel's People are dispersed - a curse of the Law for sinning and iniquity? (Lev.26:33).

    Your foundational thesis is fraught with problems.
    The way I look at it has no problems at all. You just fail, I think, to see Christ as the fulfillment of all these things, at his 1st Advent.

    1) You argue that Jerusalem must be a "holy city" at this time. But this is just an indication that Jerusalem has been dedicated to be a "holy city," and not that it always *is* a holy city!

    2) You argue that the transgression must be finished at this time. But wasn't Jewish transgression brought to complete rebellion in the time of Christ? What rebellion could be more complete than the crucifixion of Jesus?

    3) You argue that an end to sins must've been made at this time. But didn't Jesus completely deal with sin in a legal way at the cross? Of course he did. It didn't mean all sin on earth was ended. It only meant that sin was defeated as an adversary against believers.

    4) You argue that Jesus didn't, at the cross, atone for iniquity?

    5) You argue that Jesus didn't bring, in himself, everlasting righteousness?

    6) You argue that the "Most Holy," or Jesus, wasn't anointed?

    Obviously, you are requiring an interpretation that all these items are to result in the Messianic Kingdom. But I believe it is more fitting to see these as fulfilled at the 1st Coming of Christ, since he came 70 Weeks of years from the time specified to start this prophecy--at the word to restore Jerusalem. If the decree to restore Jerusalem, for example, took place in 457 BC, then 490 years later would bring us to 33 AD. But if Jesus was "cut off" in the midst of the 70th Week, then he died around 30 AD.

  4. #49
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Thanks for answering Walls so well Randyk. Im not as diplomatic as you when it comes to Messiah's accomplishments being postponed to the Millennium.

    You may not have noticed my reply to your last post to me. Its #7 and I hope you find it useful.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  5. #50
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    So, what does St. John have to offer the discussion concerning Daniel’s 70th week? More than realized, I would suggest. His timelines surrounding Jesus ministry have appeared to conflict with the synoptic gospels, but actually they tie in like a jigsaw. Take for example Jesus’ baptism: Matthew, Mark, and Luke have it late in AD 26 after which he spent time in the wilderness. St. John has it shortly before Passover early AD 27 (John 2:13) On that occasion John the Baptist called out over Jesus, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)


    Why the different details? Answer. John’s account was when Jesus returned from his wilderness experience, passing by the site of his baptism several months earlier.

    What did J the B. mean by his announcement? Answer. He was quoting Daniel’s “Seventy weeks are determined … to make an end of sins!” (Dan. 9:24)

    When did J the B. make this awesome proclamation? Answer. The first day of seventieth week! 1st Nisan (27th March) AD 27
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  6. #51
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Take for example Jesus’ baptism: Matthew, Mark, and Luke have it late in AD 26 after which he spent time in the wilderness. St. John has it shortly before Passover early AD 27 (John 2:13) On that occasion John the Baptist called out over Jesus, [I]“Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)
    Exactly, the Anointed one was recognised as such at John's baptism. This was also when he was actually anointed by the Holy Spirit, as you say ... Late 26AD

    It just so happens that late 26AD is 483 years, or 69 sevens after Israel repented and was restored spiritually. Ezra issued a proclamation to gather Israel for repentance. This proclamation is dated by the book of Ezra to late 458 BC, the seventh year of Artaxerxes. (Artaxerxes started his reign in 465 BC). 483 years later Jesus is Anointed, the coming of the Anointed one

    Daniel 9 From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens

  7. #52
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If a premise is doubtful, can the rest of the calculation carry weight? Daniel 9:24 says;

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

    1. God has set aside seventy SEVENS in PROPHECY
    2. In PROPHECY a day is a year (Num.14:34; Isa.61:2, 63:4; Ezek.4:6)
    3. They pertain to "Daniel's People" exclusively

    So we have a prophecy concerning Daniel's People - Israel, that takes 490 years. This calculation you agree with by coming out at 27 AD. But now you have to show Israel;
    • to have a HOLY CITY. But it is NOT HOLY. It is profaned by Gentiles and a Gentile Temple
    • to have finished THE transgression. No doubt it is the Abomination of Desolation
    • to have made an end to sins. Is this the case?
    • having had reconciliation for iniquity (singular) - which one
    • in a state of EVERLASTING righteousness - really?
    • having anointed the Most Holy

    It is when these ALL are accomplished that we could surmise that the VISION of the 70 SEVENs and the PROPHECY of the 70 SEVENs is "sealed up" or "accomplished" ("hatam" in the Hebrew).

    Added to this, if ALL the above were "accomplished" by 34 AD, how then is there NO CITY and NO Temple 36 years later. How come the last few of Daniel's People are dispersed - a curse of the Law for sinning and iniquity? (Lev.26:33).

    Your foundational thesis is fraught with problems.
    Well said, those with historical tendencies tend to exaggerate how Daniel 9:24 fits the first coming. The first coming was the major turning point in history and God's relationship with mankind. But still, the wording of v24 applies better to the second coming.

  8. #53
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The way I look at it has no problems at all. You just fail, I think, to see Christ as the fulfillment of all these things, at his 1st Advent.

    1) You argue that Jerusalem must be a "holy city" at this time. But this is just a just an indication that Jerusalem has been dedicated to be a "holy city," and not that it always *is* a holy city!

    2) You argue that the transgression must be finished at this time. But wasn't Jewish transgression brought to complete rebellion in the time of Christ? What rebellion could be more complete than the crucifixion of Jesus?

    3) You argue that an end to sins must've been made at this time. But didn't Jesus completely deal with sin in a legal way at the cross? Of course he did. It didn't mean all sin on earth was ended. It only meant that sin was defeated as an adversary against believers.

    4) You argue that Jesus didn't, at the cross, atone for iniquity?

    5) You argue that Jesus didn't bring, in himself, everlasting righteousness?

    6) You argue that the "Most Holy," or Jesus, wasn't anointed?

    Obviously, you are requiring an interpretation that all these items are to result in the Messianic Kingdom. But I believe it is more fitting to see these as fulfilled at the 1st Coming of Christ, since he came 70 Weeks of years from the time specified to start this prophecy--at the word to restore Jerusalem. If the decree to restore Jerusalem, for example, took place in 457 BC, then 490 years later would bring us to 33 AD. But if Jesus was "cut off" in the midst of the 70th Week, then he died around 30 AD.
    The prophecy did not concern our Lord Jesus fulfilling the prophecy. I concerned "Daniel's People". Here is Daniel 9:24 the cumbersome way. But sometimes it helps those with preconceived ideas:
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to finish the transgression
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to make an end of sins
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to make reconciliation for iniquity
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to bring in everlasting righteousness
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to seal up the vision (the word "seal" means "complete")
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to "complete" the prophecy
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to anoint the most Holy.

    Where is prophecy concerning our Lord Jesus anywhere here, except maybe the last one?

  9. #54
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Thanks for answering Walls so well Randyk. Im not as diplomatic as you when it comes to Messiah's accomplishments being postponed to the Millennium.

    You may not have noticed my reply to your last post to me. Its #7 and I hope you find it useful.
    I noticed that you refrained from answering me. I am encouraged by the dearth of counter argument. Except for brother DurbanDude, no one was constrained to address it. Makes one think. May I refer you to my posting #53 for what you regard as a prophecy of the Messiah's "accomplishments", whereas the grammar pointedly shows what "Daniel's People" have to accomplish.

  10. #55
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    This is a different view than most of the time lines of the 70 weeks

    The 70 years would become 70 weeks of prophecy of foreign control. The Jews would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.

    The 70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

    The command by the angel Gabriel is to know and understand the prophecy. The decree would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision. Thus the decree of king Cyrus is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree of king Cyrus gives us a concrete date and point in time of the 70 weeks.

    Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

    605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniels vision)

    587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

    170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

    538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.

    167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ˝ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

    164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

    605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

    587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

    170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years

    I don't think that theses date just match because of coincidence

    It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?

    Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would help prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.


  11. #56
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Thanks for answering Walls so well Randyk. Im not as diplomatic as you when it comes to Messiah's accomplishments being postponed to the Millennium.

    You may not have noticed my reply to your last post to me. Its #7 and I hope you find it useful.
    Thanks for pointing me to this. I apparently missed it. Sound argument that a 7 year period may be required to confirm a covenant. And yes, it does lead from the Anointed One to the anointing of his temple, the Church. Anyway, it's a sound theory.

  12. #57
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    So, what does St. John have to offer the discussion concerning Daniel’s 70th week? More than realized, I would suggest. His timelines surrounding Jesus ministry have appeared to conflict with the synoptic gospels, but actually they tie in like a jigsaw. Take for example Jesus’ baptism: Matthew, Mark, and Luke have it late in AD 26 after which he spent time in the wilderness. St. John has it shortly before Passover early AD 27 (John 2:13) On that occasion John the Baptist called out over Jesus, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)


    Why the different details? Answer. John’s account was when Jesus returned from his wilderness experience, passing by the site of his baptism several months earlier.

    What did J the B. mean by his announcement? Answer. He was quoting Daniel’s “Seventy weeks are determined … to make an end of sins!” (Dan. 9:24)

    When did J the B. make this awesome proclamation? Answer. The first day of seventieth week! 1st Nisan (27th March) AD 27
    Very astute. You're right. John the Baptist likely based his inspired statement on a revelation built on OT prophecies. That revelation likely united the idea that a Messiah would fulfill all of the atonement necessary to deal with all of Israel's sin, in order to bring them into the Age to Come, the Messianic Kingdom.

    John also had the prophecy of Isa 53, in which the Messiah would atone for sin. But Dan 9 is quite clear that sin had to be brought to an end and be atoned for 70 Weeks after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Apparently this is how John perceived it and stated it. The words are the same, or at worst, very similar.

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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The prophecy did not concern our Lord Jesus fulfilling the prophecy. I concerned "Daniel's People". Here is Daniel 9:24 the cumbersome way. But sometimes it helps those with preconceived ideas:
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to finish the transgression
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to make an end of sins
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to make reconciliation for iniquity
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to bring in everlasting righteousness
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to seal up the vision (the word "seal" means "complete")
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to "complete" the prophecy
    • Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people to anoint the most Holy.

    Where is prophecy concerning our Lord Jesus anywhere here, except maybe the last one?
    Everything Jesus came to do at his 1st Coming had to do with *Israel.* The impact of Jesus' 1st Coming upon Israel is apparent in that Israel was judged in 70 AD.

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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This is a different view than most of the time lines of the 70 weeks

    The 70 years would become 70 weeks of prophecy of foreign control. The Jews would go back and rebuild Jerusalem but not as free people but under foreign control.

    The 70 weeks are 490 years of prophecy.

    The command by the angel Gabriel is to know and understand the prophecy. The decree would trigger the understanding of the time line of the vision. Thus the decree of king Cyrus is the key to know and understand the 70 weeks. The decree of king Cyrus gives us a concrete date and point in time of the 70 weeks.

    Below are the time lines of each set of weeks

    605 B.C. The start of the 70 weeks Daniel and the Jews are taken into captivity. (time goes backwards from the time of Daniels vision)

    587 B.C. Jerusalem is destroyed by Babylon the start of the 7 weeks (runs parallel to some of the 62 weeks)

    170/1 B.C. Onias 3rd is murdered (cut off and has nothing) the second anointed one the last of the Zadokite priesthood which was the start of the 70th week.

    538 B.C. King Cyrus issues a decree to go and rebuild Jerusalem and Joshua (the first anointed one who was to come) goes back to rebuild Jerusalem. This is end of the 7 weeks which was 49 years after 587 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed.

    167 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th desecrates the temple ˝ way through the 70th week. The abomination that caused desolation.

    164/3 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanies 4th dies and the temple sacrifice is reestablished the end of the 70th week. (the end is poured out on him)

    605 B.C.-171 B.C. 62 weeks or 434 years

    587 B.C.-538 B.C. 7 weeks or 49 years

    170/1 B.C.-164/3 B.C. 70th week or 7 years

    I don't think that theses date just match because of coincidence

    It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?

    Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would help prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.

    I think that every effort has been made by the Jewish People to dismiss Daniel with respect to a prophecy that so clearly points to Messiah. I continue to believe this is *Messianic prophecy!* It is unthinkable to me that Daniel would sidestep this in such a long-lasting prophecy?

  15. #60
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    Re: Exact Dates for the 70th Week

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think that every effort has been made by the Jewish People to dismiss Daniel with respect to a prophecy that so clearly points to Messiah. I continue believe this is *Messianic prophecy!* It is unthinkable to me that Daniel would sidestep this in such a long-lasting prophecy?
    But Gabriel came as an answer to Daniels prayer in the first half of Daniel chapter 9. Daniel knew that the Jews were not repenting so the 7 fold judgement would come upon them and it did. Thus the 70 weeks had to start in 605 BC or the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-but their grandchildren and great grandchildren-which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents.

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