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Thread: “About The Great Tribulation”

  1. #16
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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by emekrus View Post
    But...

    I believe Jesus' comparison should clarify things.

    You know, he specifically mentions the case of Noah and Lot.

    In the both case, the children of God had to be separated from God's wrath.

    So we should also expect the same. Would you agree?
    Let me interject here, as FHG pointed out there are many indications that we are actually still here during much of that tribulation. So what do the pre-wrath verses mean then?

    There will be some events on the day of the Lord that will occur while we are feasting as per Rev 19. Those in white robes from the feast join Jesus while there are still armies fighting on earth.

    Some of the events to occur to those armies on the day of the Lord are hailstones, a great earthquake, and the destruction/winepress of those armies. We are raptured just before those events, thus we do not experience that final wrath on the day of the Lord. And this is the comparison with Noah, we get raptured, on that same day wrath pours out especially on the gathered armies outside Jerusalem. This is the winepress of wrath.

  2. #17
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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Walls said: Those WORTHY will ESCAPE what happens to ALL on the WHOLE earth. One above has quoted a Bible version that says "shall pass safely through". But the Greek word - a compound word - is Greek Word, "ek-pheugo". It is made up of "ek" which means "out of", and "pheugo", which means to "escape by fleeing". It by no means indicates that one will "pass safely through". No literal translation renders it this way. All literal translations render it as "escaping out of the situation by flight". Quote Walls.

    Yes, escape is the usual meaning of 'ek pheugo'.
    But to use it in Luke 21:35, especially thinking it means a rapture removal; is a direct contradiction of the immediately preceding verse, which plainly states this disaster will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth.


    The REBible renders it correctly, pass safely through, so as to avoid any contradiction.
    And as I showed, many prophesies say how the Lord intends to protect His people, not to remove them. Here is our instructions: Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21


    So Cliff, you are wrong and we will all experience the events as prophesied. We must be tested; 1 Peter 4:12, James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +
    And if some avoid testing and discipline, then they are illegitimate and not true children of God. Hebrews 12:8
    I answer that which I have made bold.

    The "escape out of" of verse 36 means that those accounted worthy will NOT DWELL on earth at that time. They stand before the Son of man in the clouds. That is the very point. Anybody LEFT on earth must face the Great Tribulation. Anybody who "ek-phuegos" will NOT be DWELLING on earth.

    The "testing" is BEFORE the Great Tribulation. It is what QUALIFIES one to stand before the Son of man while the earth languishes in God's wrath. 1st Peter 1:7 is clear; "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." We are tried now by the world, angels, men, circumstances and the self SO THAT at Christ's appearing one finds praise, honor and glory. In your scheme of things the believer is tried and then, if found worthy of praise, honor and glory, must face THE Great Tribulation. Contradiction - or no?

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by emekrus View Post
    But...
    I believe Jesus' comparison should clarify things.
    You know, he specifically mentions the case of Noah and Lot.
    In the both case, the children of God had to be separated from God's wrath.

    So we should also expect the same. Would you agree?
    It does clarify, but not in the way you suggest.
    Lot was in Sodom UNTIL the last moment.
    His wife who fled with him, turned back and died, turned into salt, even though they had left.

    Noah was in the ark with the rain coming down and the ark was lifted up, and he had to endure the effects of God's wrath on the people of that time.

    In neither case were they taken out of the earth, rather God had a plan for them, and they needed to respond to that plan.
    The rapture is NOT something we do, but what He does when He returns for the final battle.

    Rev 16:19 speaks of the destruction of Babylon. Rev 17 then explains where/what Babylon is, and Rev 18:4 states explicitly that His people are STILL on the earth and will share in her plagues if they remain there.
    This was true for Lot and Noah. They had to physically leave.
    So this shows that he final vial is poured out and God's people are still around.
    After this vial then comes the return of Jesus and the rapture.

    So yes we can avoid God's wrath, and this we also see for the Israelites in Egypt too.
    It required obedience and a response and not simply waiting for "rapture".
    We escape, not we are escaped.
    Hopefully that clarifies the position.

  4. #19
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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    Well, I see it really two ways. Either the redeemed at the start of this are removed to not go thru it, or everyone gets to partake in the madness.

    Of the latter, I am not sure any form of "being ready" to deal with what is coming will work. All the evil that has transpired on the earth has basically been "leaks" that the Holy Spirit has not restrained. When the Holy Spirit steps aside and allows evil to charge thru at full fury, I am not sure that even the most Biblically astute among us can fully grasp what will be going down. Yeshua Himself said that many would keel over from heart attacks just seeing what is coming upon the earth.

    The Holy Spirit gives us little glimpses regarding this, but that is about it. And there could be good reason for that. First, to make sure we don't waste all our time focussing on these things. Second, that those who are of the redeemed when the horror show begins will not experience any of it.

    We can have debates on how it all plays out, but I am pretty confident that none of us really have every detail worked out perfectly. Just to read and hear some talk about being prepared to go thru that exhibits a myopic view of what really will be going down at that time. As the Lord clearly said, it will be a time that will be worse than any other time that has preceded it, nor will ever be again. Everything in history up to that period will have been a cake walk. When the real deal goes down, man, what a terrible time that will be.

    Now, given that, and knowing in whom I have placed my trust, it seems rather counter to His nature that He would have those who He has already redeemed go thru that. And those who think so, I am not sure they really grasp what that period is all about and who it is intended for.

    So, even if I am wrong and we all end up going into that period, I see no real way that anyone can be prepared for it. It will make anything we imagine pale in relation to reality. All those "left behind" type of movies barely scratch the surface. And I am not convinced any "pepper" stuff will make any difference.

    And believing that the redeemed up to the start of this stuff are removed prior to it, it is a major motivation to try and get the word to as many as possible so that they also can become part of the redeemed of Yeshua. Time is critical. And there is a lot of work that needs done. It is possible that holding onto a position that everyone has to go thru all of that can make one complacent in their outreach to the world.

    While I like to look at end times things and speculate, my motivation has become more focused on what is truly critical.
    Cliff, I fully understand your concern that believers will not be saved. Indeed, this is the bedrock of the proponents of Pretrib. Understandable is their view is, scripture also provided reasons to discount the doctrine of the removal of the saints prior to the GT. Every argument that is not the only objective, but also acknowledges the possibility that there might yet be other logical explanations, always have my attention. And that is the way you seem to have presented post, so my full respects.

    Years ago when I had only the teachings from my local as a guide, I also believed that the saved will be whisked away before all hell breaks loose in GT. But when I came to this Board I found like-minded views like mine as well as differing opinions. So being objective minded, I was forced to challenge my long held opinions and study diligently to come to my own conclusion - one that I am comfortable with. But as you aptly pointed out: "I am pretty confident that none of us really have every detail worked out perfectly." This indeed is the truth, for, in the end, we all must hold on to the version that we are at ease with.

    What I believe will make people complacent is the thought of a "second chance" -- the so-called 'Left Behind' who supposedly put their acts together after their brethren are raptured. I see this as a dangerous get out of jail card that will mislead many and I don't accept the doctrine to be true...but what do I know?

    With regards to the survival of the saints in the GT, I am personally not concerned; I trust God to look after his own as he did for the Hebrews when he rained plagues upon the Egyptians.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer that which I have made bold.

    The "escape out of" of verse 36 means that those accounted worthy will NOT DWELL on earth at that time. They stand before the Son of man in the clouds. That is the very point. Anybody LEFT on earth must face the Great Tribulation. Anybody who "ek-phuegos" will NOT be DWELLING on earth.

    The "testing" is BEFORE the Great Tribulation. It is what QUALIFIES one to stand before the Son of man while the earth languishes in God's wrath. 1st Peter 1:7 is clear; "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." We are tried now by the world, angels, men, circumstances and the self SO THAT at Christ's appearing one finds praise, honor and glory. In your scheme of things the believer is tried and then, if found worthy of praise, honor and glory, must face THE Great Tribulation. Contradiction - or no?
    I have just responded to a beautiful post by Cliff who shares your Pretrib belief that the saints will not go through the GT. This debate, unfortunately, is apparently inexhaustible. For the record, I am Post-trib and satisfied in my belief that the faithful will go through the GT. Some will die but the majority will be saved to rapture at the tail of the Tribulation prior to his Glorious Return.

    In the allegorical scenario in Luke 16, Jesus told the rich man (when he asked that a messenger should be sent to his brothers on earth to warn them) that those on earth should listen to the prophets and apostles sent to them. This seemingly out of place piece of advice is often overlooked by the Pretrib argument.

    Having some believers pay mere lip service to God and then realise after the rapture that what they have been told all along is true and then truly give their hearts to God will be akin to God sending a messenger or a sign (the GT) to those sitting on the fence to believe in him (what Jesus told the rich man will not happen). In my book, this flies against the face of everything the Bible taught about believing in Christ.

    But since both sides of the argument have something going for them, no side can yell from the rooftop to have all the answers. And as I told Cliff, we all must find the interpretation we are comfortable with, be it Pretrib or Post-trib - and live with it until Christ returns.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer that which I have made bold.

    The "escape out of" of verse 36 means that those accounted worthy will NOT DWELL on earth at that time. They stand before the Son of man in the clouds. That is the very point. Anybody LEFT on earth must face the Great Tribulation. Anybody who "ek-phuegos" will NOT be DWELLING on earth.

    The "testing" is BEFORE the Great Tribulation. It is what QUALIFIES one to stand before the Son of man while the earth languishes in God's wrath. 1st Peter 1:7 is clear; "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." We are tried now by the world, angels, men, circumstances and the self SO THAT at Christ's appearing one finds praise, honor and glory. In your scheme of things the believer is tried and then, if found worthy of praise, honor and glory, must face THE Great Tribulation. Contradiction - or no?
    OK, so you're gonna be raptured outta here before the GT. Just reading 'escape' into Luke 21:36 doesn't prove that idea at all.

    I know the Bible quite well and I just do not see any scripture that says God will take His people to heaven before His wrath strikes the ungodly. Note I did not say God's wrath will affect the righteous; because He has promised protection for them, as many prophesies attest.
    Christians WILL face testing and trials, some unto death; as they have thru the ages. Proved by Revelation 13:10

    Re the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, these things will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. As Revelation 12:6-17 tells us, many Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time. Some must remain under the control of the 'beast', because of their failure to maintain their faith in God and they agreed to a peace treaty with the beast; the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:14-15

    Until I see real Biblical proof that God intends to rapture His people to heaven before anything nasty happens. then I will continue to call it out as a false teaching.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    OK, so you're gonna be raptured outta here before the GT. Just reading 'escape' into Luke 21:36 doesn't prove that idea at all.

    I know the Bible quite well and I just do not see any scripture that says God will take His people to heaven before His wrath strikes the ungodly. Note I did not say God's wrath will affect the righteous; because He has promised protection for them, as many prophesies attest.
    Christians WILL face testing and trials, some unto death; as they have thru the ages. Proved by Revelation 13:10

    Re the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, these things will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. As Revelation 12:6-17 tells us, many Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time. Some must remain under the control of the 'beast', because of their failure to maintain their faith in God and they agreed to a peace treaty with the beast; the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:14-15

    Until I see real Biblical proof that God intends to rapture His people to heaven before anything nasty happens. then I will continue to call it out as a false teaching.
    Keraz, the Rapture of the saints is a sound scriptural doctrine that cannot be denied. Supporting scriptures abound. The argument scholars are grappling with is when will it occur -- before or at the end of the Great Tribulation? The Bible is not very clear on this as Pre-trib and Post-trib both seem to have valid cases, yet both can't be right!

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    OK, so you're gonna be raptured outta here before the GT. Just reading 'escape' into Luke 21:36 doesn't prove that idea at all.
    But I did NOT read "escape" INTO IT. A thousand talented, gifted and educated men did. All I did was show the constitution and meaning of the word that ten thousand translator agree on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I know the Bible quite well and I just do not see any scripture that says God will take His people to heaven before His wrath strikes the ungodly.
    But what then is the meaning of Luke 21:36? I have expounded it at length and you let it stand. What shall I say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Note I did not say God's wrath will affect the righteous; because He has promised protection for them, as many prophesies attest.
    Christians WILL face testing and trials, some unto death; as they have thru the ages. Proved by Revelation 13:10
    I must say that I must call into doubt your English. If God's wrath tries ALL flesh that dwells in the WHOLE earth, how then are they protected? What part of "ALL" is NOT "ALL"? If you refer to Revelation 12:16 then I must disappoint you. The "EARTH" helped the Woman - NOT GOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Re the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, these things will happen during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. As Revelation 12:6-17 tells us, many Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time. Some must remain under the control of the 'beast', because of their failure to maintain their faith in God and they agreed to a peace treaty with the beast; the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 11:32, Isaiah 28:14-15
    You say "many" Christians. Pray tell us about the rest? Does not both Daniel 7:21, 25, 8:24 and Rev 12:17 and 13:8 tell us that the saints of the most High are OVERCOME by the Beast. Even the Two Witnesses of Rev 11:7, who possess fire to kill opposers, are "overcome and killed"! Where is this place of safety when scripture says "the WHOLE EARTH"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Until I see real Biblical proof that God intends to rapture His people to heaven before anything nasty happens. then I will continue to call it out as a false teaching.
    That is your right. May the reader decide. God bless (genuinely).

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Keraz, the Rapture of the saints is a sound scriptural doctrine that cannot be denied. Supporting scriptures abound. The argument scholars are grappling with is when will it occur -- before or at the end of the Great Tribulation? The Bible is not very clear on this as Pre-trib and Post-trib both seem to have valid cases, yet both can't be right!
    That ... is one of the most profound statements I've seen on this Forum for a while. THAT ... is what the evidence shows. It is up to us then to discover WHY?

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Cliff, I fully understand your concern that believers will not be saved. Indeed, this is the bedrock of the proponents of Pretrib. Understandable is their view is, scripture also provided reasons to discount the doctrine of the removal of the saints prior to the GT. Every argument that is not the only objective, but also acknowledges the possibility that there might yet be other logical explanations, always have my attention. And that is the way you seem to have presented post, so my full respects.

    Years ago when I had only the teachings from my local as a guide, I also believed that the saved will be whisked away before all hell breaks loose in GT. But when I came to this Board I found like-minded views like mine as well as differing opinions. So being objective minded, I was forced to challenge my long held opinions and study diligently to come to my own conclusion - one that I am comfortable with. But as you aptly pointed out: "I am pretty confident that none of us really have every detail worked out perfectly." This indeed is the truth, for, in the end, we all must hold on to the version that we are at ease with.

    What I believe will make people complacent is the thought of a "second chance" -- the so-called 'Left Behind' who supposedly put their acts together after their brethren are raptured. I see this as a dangerous get out of jail card that will mislead many and I don't accept the doctrine to be true...but what do I know?

    With regards to the survival of the saints in the GT, I am personally not concerned; I trust God to look after his own as he did for the Hebrews when he rained plagues upon the Egyptians.
    More than this a man cannot expect. One has Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10, Revelation 14:1-7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:9, which put certain Christians OUTSIDE of the arena of God's wrath. We have supporting Types like Enoch and Noah, Abraham and Lot and THREE of TWELVE disciples "on high" while the rest languish in unfaithfulness and demon superiority. We have Paul "Striving" for the PRIZE of the "upward-call" and his trying to ATTAIN to the "special-resurrection". Clear indications that SOME Christians avoid the hour of trial that comes upon the WHOLE earth.

    And then we have the warnings of Matthew 24 where one is "taken as an intimate companion" (paralambano) and one LEFT behind. We have FIVE apostate Churches by 95 AD, three of which are connected with the Lord's coming, not to save by His coming, but to chastise. Only one is commended and promised relief from the "hour of trial" that will come upon the WHOLE earth. We have a "multitude of every nation" connected with our Lord Jesus in Revelation Chapter 7 "who have come out of THE Great Tribulation". Then we have, in Revelation 12, those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ" passing through the trials of 1260 days of Great Tribulation in a "Wilderness". Then we have "saints" OVERCOME by the Beast in Revelation 11 and 13, certifying that saints must be on earth during his reign. Then we have Mystery Babylon, on the cusp of her destruction, with "MY (God's) people" IN IT in Revelation 17. And the Types above fit this too. Some GONE - and some REMAINING in a dreary situation.

    I applaud your studies. Now it is up to you to find WHY SOME are "taken with as intimate companions" and some are "left".

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    You do not want to be "taken" my friends...……

    Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    The Lord will come as a thief at the second coming.

    So you want to be the one which is left. Just saying.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    You do not want to be "taken" my friends...……

    Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    The Lord will come as a thief at the second coming.

    So you want to be the one which is left. Just saying.
    We must make a difference where scripture makes a difference. One IS a THIEF, and the other comes AS a Thief. One possesses the intrinsic nature of a thief and comes to steal FROM you what is yours. The other is LIKE a Thief in that He takes something VALUABLE - an overcoming Christian!

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Keraz, the Rapture of the saints is a sound scriptural doctrine that cannot be denied. Supporting scriptures abound. The argument scholars are grappling with is when will it occur -- before or at the end of the Great Tribulation? The Bible is not very clear on this as Pre-trib and Post-trib both seem to have valid cases, yet both can't be right!
    A rapture to heaven of the Church; sound doctrine? I agree it is soundly embedded into, probably the majority of Christians, but it fails to be proved by any scripture. Only assumption, conjecture, supposition and plain guesswork, can construct the 'rapture to heaven' theory from the Bible.

    Doesn't the fact of the continuing argument, for 100+ years now, of when this assumed 'rapture' will happen, raise a red flag to you? If such a thing was part of God's plan for His people, then when He intends to do it, should be prophesied.
    Paul prophesies about what will happen when Jesus Returns in 1 Thess 4:15-17. Those Christians who remain, [after all the dramatic events of Revelation up to the Return in Rev 19:11, have happened] will be bodily transported to where He is, initially a meeting in the clouds, then to be His priests and co rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10

    Walls; if you are hanging your entire 'rapture to heaven' doctrine on Luke 21:36, then it is a very thin thread indeed!
    Heaven isn't mentioned in that verse, or any removal as such. The best possibility would be in Isaiah 26:20-21, where we are told to hide for a little while until the Lord's wrath has passed. This is confirmed by many scriptures saying how the Lord will protect His people through it all. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24, 1 Corinthians 10:13


    Jesus said we should take care not to be deceived......Seems that many have not been careful enough!

  14. #29

    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    More than this a man cannot expect. One has Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10, Revelation 14:1-7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:9, which put certain Christians OUTSIDE of the arena of God's wrath. We have supporting Types like Enoch and Noah, Abraham and Lot and THREE of TWELVE disciples "on high" while the rest languish in unfaithfulness and demon superiority. We have Paul "Striving" for the PRIZE of the "upward-call" and his trying to ATTAIN to the "special-resurrection". Clear indications that SOME Christians avoid the hour of trial that comes upon the WHOLE earth.

    And then we have the warnings of Matthew 24 where one is "taken as an intimate companion" (paralambano) and one LEFT behind. We have FIVE apostate Churches by 95 AD, three of which are connected with the Lord's coming, not to save by His coming, but to chastise. Only one is commended and promised relief from the "hour of trial" that will come upon the WHOLE earth. We have a "multitude of every nation" connected with our Lord Jesus in Revelation Chapter 7 "who have come out of THE Great Tribulation". Then we have, in Revelation 12, those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ" passing through the trials of 1260 days of Great Tribulation in a "Wilderness". Then we have "saints" OVERCOME by the Beast in Revelation 11 and 13, certifying that saints must be on earth during his reign. Then we have Mystery Babylon, on the cusp of her destruction, with "MY (God's) people" IN IT in Revelation 17. And the Types above fit this too. Some GONE - and some REMAINING in a dreary situation.

    I applaud your studies. Now it is up to you to find WHY SOME are "taken with as intimate companions" and some are "left".

    But brother wall,

    Concerning Revelation 7:14 you quoted...

    If the saints referred to are said to have 'come out of' the great tribulation, doesn't it stand to reason that they oft to 'be in' the great tribulation first, before coming out of it?
    Emeke Odili is a Christian Teacher, Preacher, Author, Writer and Blogger. He has a divinely given vision of practically teaching people how to make success in life through absolute righteousness and faith. Emeke is married to his best friend, Joy. He shares life-transforming articles at his blog: www.righteousfaith.wordpress.com

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    A rapture to heaven of the Church; sound doctrine? I agree it is soundly embedded into, probably the majority of Christians, but it fails to be proved by any scripture. Only assumption, conjecture, supposition and plain guesswork, can construct the 'rapture to heaven' theory from the Bible.
    Keraz,
    Where you fail to get people to agree is your blanket denial of rapture.
    I agree with you that we are not raptured to the third heaven.
    However scripture shows that the clouds are counted as being part of the heavens (plural).
    We definitely DO rapture into that heaven, where we meet Jesus (in the clouds).

    So it is a VERY SOUND incontrovertible doctrine that we are raptured and further that this rapture takes us to heaven.
    Where you have a valid point, but what you lose people on, is in the need to clarify that rapture to meet Jesus in the clouds is not Heaven (where God is now, and what is called the 3rd heaven).

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