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Thread: “About The Great Tribulation”

  1. #46
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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Nicely put. And it is noteworthy that after Revelation Chapter 3 the Church, as such, is never mentioned again. Individual Christians ... yes, but the Church ... no! Israel is pushed to the front since the "Apokalypsis" of our Lord Jesus is the central them of the Apocalypse (Revelation), and His appearing, or "revealing" has to do with Israel's crisis, Mount Olives, Jerusalem, the Temple and the nations that surround them. The first three Chapters show a Lord totally dissatisfied with His Church. The call is for "overcomers". Thereafter, with the apostate Church dismissed, events predicted very much by the Old Testament prophets come into focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry but that is simply rubbish. I am surprised at you Walls.
    What you mean is no Church is mentioned by name.
    However the saints are certainly mentioned, many times over, and these are mentioned separately to Israel - such as in Rev 7.
    His appearing is seen in Luke 17, but there is no rapture in Luke 17.
    Also the first three chapters do NOT show a Lord totally dissatisfied with the church. Instead He is dissatisfied with some, and pleased with others and encourages others to do better.
    It will not win any argumentation if you are disappointed in me. Probably 90% of posters who have clashed with me are "surprised" at me. What is profitable is sustained logical argument documented with scripture. If you think that the Church is mentioned again after Chapter 3, all you needed, in this case, was to post the scriptures that contain the word "Ekklesia". None (except for the salutation in 22:16)? Then Walls is correct and my point is made. And there is a reason. The letters to the FOUR last Churches, besides DIVIDING the Christians into Overcomer and NON-overcomer, also allude to the "Coming" of the Lord (2:25, 3:3, 3:11 and 3:20). Even Philadelphia, which at the time of writing, is perfect, is WARNED in 3:11 that some could lose their crown. Now, the IMPLICATION in each case is that at the Lord's Coming there will be TWO different types of Christian - (i) Overcomers, and (ii) Christians is found on the wrong side and overcome. In the case of Laodicea it is said outright that the Lord will vomit the lukewarm ones OUT of His mouth. That is, at Christ's Coming the Christians will be DIVIDED into Overcomer or NON-Overcomer.

    The word "Church" is "Ekklesia" in the Greek. It means literally; "the GATHERING of the called-out ones". But Matthew 24:42-51 shows the HOUSE of the servants is "Broken up" AT THE LORD'S COMING! This section of Matthew, from 24:32 until 25:30 concerns SERVANTS and VIRGINS, and in the said text the HOUSE of the SERVANTS is broken up by one being TAKEN (paralambano - "taken as an intimate companion"), and one being LEFT. Thus, "the GATHERING of the called-out ones" CEASES TO EXIST at Christ's Coming. Israel was ONE NATION, and were called "the "CONGREGATION of Israel". They GATHERED around the Tabernacle, and were to GATHER in Jerusalem thrice a year and feast. But because of their behavior they are DIVIDED, and later SCATTERED. God's judgement on their works leads to the "scattered of Israel" (Lev.26:33). So also the Church. It is "the Ekklesia" (the GATHERING of the called-out ones) UNTIL Chrst's coming. At His Coming He JUDGES and DIVIDES! Then it is no longer the GATHERING of the called out ones, and can thus no longer be called "THE Church"

    As further proof I present you with;
    • Revelation 12:17. It is the "REMNANT" of her seed. That means some of her seed is here and THE REMAINDER is there
    • Revelation 12:11. Here we have the OTHER PART of her seed. They Overcome Satan. But in 13:7 Satan's emissary, the Beast, OVERCOMES the saints - that is, TWO distinct categories of Christian
    • Revelation 7:9-17. Here we have Christians going through The Great Tribulation on earth, whose garments are dirty. In Revelation 14:1-5 we have Christians whose garments are clean (they are without fault) and who "are redeemed from the earth" - the same TWO categories of Christian BUT MILES APART
    • Revelation 18:4. Here some of God's People are fraternizing with Babylon the Great. In Chapter 19 there are saints in the sky ready to proceed to a Marriage Feast and a Battle against the Chief of Babylon. Again - TWO categories of saint.

    So, AFTER the Coming of Christ in the clouds the "House" (of God) is "broken up". The word "Ekklesia" cannot be used anymore. The Overcomers are GATHERED to the sky, the air, the clouds, to be with the Lord, and the slothful and defeated saints are GATHERED to a "Wilderness" to suffer the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation and be helped by the earth. But TOGETHER they are NOT GATHERED. The EKKLESIA ceases to exist for a short period - the period where Israel is drawn back into focus and the prophets of old have their fulfillment.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    A rapture to heaven of the Church; sound doctrine? I agree it is soundly embedded into, probably the majority of Christians, but it fails to be proved by any scripture. Only assumption, conjecture, supposition and plain guesswork, can construct the 'rapture to heaven' theory from the Bible.

    Doesn't the fact of the continuing argument, for 100+ years now, of when this assumed 'rapture' will happen, raise a red flag to you? If such a thing was part of God's plan for His people, then when He intends to do it, should be prophesied.
    Paul prophesies about what will happen when Jesus Returns in 1 Thess 4:15-17. Those Christians who remain, [after all the dramatic events of Revelation up to the Return in Rev 19:11, have happened] will be bodily transported to where He is, initially a meeting in the clouds, then to be His priests and co rulers on earth. Revelation 5:10

    Jesus said we should take care not to be deceived......Seems that many have not been careful enough!
    I don't mean to be disrespectful but the problem is you won't recognize 'sound doctrine' even if you see it. There are numerous scriptures confirming the rapture as infallible. I have given them to you several times as well as others, but since your mind, is closed to their truth, you only read what only YOU can, into them. So when you claim that scripture fails to prove the rapture, it sadly highlights your denial of a Biblical truth.

    The irony is that you use the rapture scriptures e.g. 1 Thess 4:15-17 to support your warped version of events. When you say "they are transported bodily to where He is", it begs these questions:

    1. Who is where?
    2. Where is He?
    3. Which body do you have in mind - our mortal body or the promised spiritual body?

    The greatest danger to many and also Satan most effective weapon is spiritual blindness, ie actually reading the Bible and yet lacking the discernment to understand and benefit from it.

  3. #48
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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    More than this a man cannot expect. One has Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10, Revelation 14:1-7 and 1st Thessalonians 5:9, which put certain Christians OUTSIDE of the arena of God's wrath. We have supporting Types like Enoch and Noah, Abraham and Lot and THREE of TWELVE disciples "on high" while the rest languish in unfaithfulness and demon superiority. We have Paul "Striving" for the PRIZE of the "upward-call" and his trying to ATTAIN to the "special-resurrection". Clear indications that SOME Christians avoid the hour of trial that comes upon the WHOLE earth.
    Actually, none of these passages Luke 21:36, Rev 3:10; 14:1-7 and 1 Thess 5:9 confirms that the Church will be removed before the Great Tribulation starts. The Bible stated in several places that we must endure to the end. Furthermore, Paul said in several places that the LAST TRUMP will precede the rapture, 1 Cor 15:52. I hereby implore you to read what happens from the first to the seventh trumps in Revelation and tell me what those catastrophes are? You can't cherry pick scriptures that seem to agree with your doctrine while ignoring valid passages that challenge the validity of your position.

    And then we have the warnings of Matthew 24 where one is "taken as an intimate companion" (paralambano) and one LEFT behind. We have FIVE apostate Churches by 95 AD, three of which are connected with the Lord's coming, not to save by His coming, but to chastise. Only one is commended and promised relief from the "hour of trial" that will come upon the WHOLE earth. We have a "multitude of every nation" connected with our Lord Jesus in Revelation Chapter 7 "who have come out of THE Great Tribulation". Then we have, in Revelation 12, those who have "the testimony of Jesus Christ" passing through the trials of 1260 days of Great Tribulation in a "Wilderness". Then we have "saints" OVERCOME by the Beast in Revelation 11 and 13, certifying that saints must be on earth during his reign. Then we have Mystery Babylon, on the cusp of her destruction, with "MY (God's) people" IN IT in Revelation 17. And the Types above fit this too. Some GONE - and some REMAINING in a dreary situation.

    I applaud your studies. Now it is up to you to find WHY SOME are "taken with as intimate companions" and some are "left".
    Your references to Matt 24 about the LEFT behind confirms that the ungodly will be left after the faithful are raptured. It doesn't, however, prove that they are whisked away to avoid the GT. Given your position, it makes sense for you to label every "saint" in Revelation as the so-called second chance believers who wait for the GT before they make up their mind to believe God. In 2 Thess 2:11-12, Paul said that God will pour out a strong delusion upon the ungodly to make them believe the lies of the Beast that THEY MIGHT BE DAMNED. When you advocate the doctrine of second chance believers after the rapture, I don't suppose you take this text into account?

    When God calls his PEOPLE out of mystery Babylon, it is the general body of Christ that is in view. It is the same general church that the Beast will turn upon in Rev 12 after Israel escapes into the desert. I could go on and on to shoot down your doctrine, but what's the point? This argument has been raging since the Reformation. And I don't think it will end here. But it's always fun to revisit it from time to time.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It will not win any argumentation if you are disappointed in me. Probably 90% of posters who have clashed with me are "surprised" at me. What is profitable is sustained logical argument documented with scripture. If you think that the Church is mentioned again after Chapter 3, all you needed, in this case, was to post the scriptures that contain the word "Ekklesia". None (except for the salutation in 22:16)? Then Walls is correct and my point is made.
    Nope, Walls is NOT correct. the fact that the word "ekklesia" is NOT used after Chapter 3 does NOT mean the Church is not mentioned. It simply means the WORD "church" is NOT used.

    And there is a reason. The letters to the FOUR last Churches, besides DIVIDING the Christians into Overcomer and NON-overcomer, also allude to the "Coming" of the Lord (2:25, 3:3, 3:11 and 3:20). Even Philadelphia, which at the time of writing, is perfect, is WARNED in 3:11 that some could lose their crown. Now, the IMPLICATION in each case is that at the Lord's Coming there will be TWO different types of Christian - (i) Overcomers, and (ii) Christians is found on the wrong side and overcome. In the case of Laodicea it is said outright that the Lord will vomit the lukewarm ones OUT of His mouth. That is, at Christ's Coming the Christians will be DIVIDED into Overcomer or NON-Overcomer.
    Again incorrect. You are speculating rather than dealing with what is stated.
    There is NO implication that there are two types of Christian. What it implies is that simply because you are IN church, this does not mean you are IN Christ.

    The word "Church" is "Ekklesia" in the Greek. It means literally; "the GATHERING of the called-out ones". But Matthew 24:42-51 shows the HOUSE of the servants is "Broken up" AT THE LORD'S COMING! This section of Matthew, from 24:32 until 25:30 concerns SERVANTS and VIRGINS, and in the said text the HOUSE of the SERVANTS is broken up by one being TAKEN (paralambano - "taken as an intimate companion"), and one being LEFT. Thus, "the GATHERING of the called-out ones" CEASES TO EXIST at Christ's Coming. Israel was ONE NATION, and were called "the "CONGREGATION of Israel". They GATHERED around the Tabernacle, and were to GATHER in Jerusalem thrice a year and feast. But because of their behavior they are DIVIDED, and later SCATTERED. God's judgement on their works leads to the "scattered of Israel" (Lev.26:33). So also the Church. It is "the Ekklesia" (the GATHERING of the called-out ones) UNTIL Chrst's coming. At His Coming He JUDGES and DIVIDES! Then it is no longer the GATHERING of the called out ones, and can thus no longer be called "THE Church"
    Actually no it doesn't show that either.
    Matt 24:32 is peaking of Israel. Notice it speaks of the FIG tree?
    Further this same passage is found in Luke 17:20 -37. The KEY thing to note here is that it is NOT about a rapture. It is about the NEED to flee (physically) from danger.
    Moreover it is speaking about the start of the GT, which beings with the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
    This need to flee is when Jesusis revealed:
    Luk 17:30* so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.*
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

    Where is this, and who is involved? It is in Jerusalem. It is about the AoD.
    This is also spoken of by Zechariah:
    Zec 14:4* On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.*
    Zec 14:5* And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    As further proof I present you with;
    • Revelation 12:17. It is the "REMNANT" of her seed. That means some of her seed is here and THE REMAINDER is there
    • Revelation 12:11. Here we have the OTHER PART of her seed. They Overcome Satan. But in 13:7 Satan's emissary, the Beast, OVERCOMES the saints - that is, TWO distinct categories of Christian
    • Revelation 7:9-17. Here we have Christians going through The Great Tribulation on earth, whose garments are dirty. In Revelation 14:1-5 we have Christians whose garments are clean (they are without fault) and who "are redeemed from the earth" - the same TWO categories of Christian BUT MILES APART
    • Revelation 18:4. Here some of God's People are fraternizing with Babylon the Great. In Chapter 19 there are saints in the sky ready to proceed to a Marriage Feast and a Battle against the Chief of Babylon. Again - TWO categories of saint.

    So, AFTER the Coming of Christ in the clouds the "House" (of God) is "broken up". The word "Ekklesia" cannot be used anymore. The Overcomers are GATHERED to the sky, the air, the clouds, to be with the Lord, and the slothful and defeated saints are GATHERED to a "Wilderness" to suffer the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation and be helped by the earth. But TOGETHER they are NOT GATHERED. The EKKLESIA ceases to exist for a short period - the period where Israel is drawn back into focus and the prophets of old have their fulfillment.
    Let me deal with your list.
    1) the rest of her offspring means those who are NOT counted as being the woman. Who is the woman? Israel! Who are the Offspring? Christians.
    2) Again this is Christians, but those who have been martyred. When it says the Beast overcomes them it does NOT mean that he defeated them spiritually but physically.
    Rev 13:7* Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.
    3) Nope their garments are NOT dirty. Rather they are given NEW garments to replace what was worn and old. rev 14 is NOT about Christians but about the 144K who are of Israel.
    4) Actually they are living there. Just as Lot lived in Sodom - was he fraternising? God considered him righteous and sent two angels to bring him out. These are Christians living like Lot in the midst of evil. It does not mean Lot was evil, nor that these Christians are evil, but rather that the place is evil.
    Chapter 19 is NOT about saints being in Heaven, but angels.

    When Jesus comes the House of God is NOT broken up. He has already removed the tares from the field and now He comes to get the wheat.
    He comes AFTER Israel has already gone to the Wilderness and is now returning after 1260 days. It is the Festival of Booths.
    ANYONE who is a Christian is raptured. Every single one of them. The winnowing time will be over.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Question......does the resurrection happen before those are taken?
    Probably unwittingly, you have loaded the question. Do you mean verse 39, "taken" in judgement" or verse 40, "taken as intimate companions"? To cover all the bases I will answer both. Here is the context. Matthew 24:36-40;

    36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."


    Verse 36 categorically states that no MAN knows the day or hour in which the Son of man comes. This is very clever. It should keep the Christian in good standing with God, Christ and his fellow Christian HOUR BY HOUR. Have you just murmured against God? Fix it within the hour. Have you just disobeyed Christ your Head? Rectify it within the hour. Have you just injured another saint with your words? Be reconciled within the hour!
    Verse 37 gives the GENERAL time of the Second Coming. If we cannot know the day or hour, we can know "the signs of the times". Is violence increasing dramatically? Is lawlessness increasing dramatically? Is sexual offense increasing dramatically? Are men fascinated with angels or aliens and desiring to have intercourse with them? All these were the "evil" of Noah's day.
    Verse 38 now turns to the "ATTITUDE" of men at this time. They are all engaged in the most normal things BUT ARE UNAWARE OF IMPENDING DOOM. Besides the occasional laugh or snigger at Noah, people just shook their heads at this big Ark on an earth that had never seen rain. They were oblivious to the fact that their days were numbered.
    Verse 39. Then SUDDENLY it started to rain and "TOOK" them all away. "TOOK" is "airo" in the Greek which means "TAKEN IN JUDGMENT" like, by a most horrible death, Jesus TOOK away our sins. So too the people of earth. They are TAKEN in a most horrible judgment.
    Verse 40. But if we recall the narrative of Noah, DID HE NOT ENTER THE ARK SEVEN DAYS BEFORE THE RAIN CAME? (Gen.7:1-10). The TWO in the "field" are members of a HOUSE (v.43). They eat, work, play and sleep in each others company. They work TOGETHER in the "Field". In Parable, the "Field" is the world (Matt.13:38). The two are "sowing" the gospel. They are SERVANTS of the House. And all of a sudden, like Noah's time, sometime before the JUDGMENT, ONE IS TAKEN. But this time, he is TAKEN as an intimate companion. The word is "paralambano" in the Greek. TWO were SERVING. TWO were in the "field". TWO were of the same HOUSEHOLD. But only ONE is INTIMATE with "YOUR LORD".

    BOTH are Christians. Both are in the Church, the HOUSE of the Living God. Both SERVED. But ONE is taken as a friend to the clouds, and one is LEFT. LEFT where? In the field! - The world! How then shall a man become INTIMATE with the Lord? Paul tells us in Philippians 3:10;

    10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death."

    "To know Him". The word in the Greek is "ginosko". It does not mean primarily intellectual knowledge. It means EXPERIMENTAL, or EXPERIENTIAL knowledge. The woman in Mark 5:29 "KNEW" something has changed in her body. She did not know intellectually what had happened, but she "FELT" something. She was "AWARE" of something. After 40 years of marriage to the same woman, my wife does not have to say anything for me to become AWARE that she wants, needs or is indicating something. I "know" my wife intellectually. But she is a mystery for men "are from Mars and women are from Venus". We men are so different to women. But EXPERIENTIALLY I've walked her road. I've laughed and cried with her and suffered her sufferings. She does not have to communicate intellectually. I know in any set of circumstances what she is thinking and feeling. And so Paul wanted to KNOW Jesus by EXPERIENCING His power, his sufferings and His death.

    But what is the CONTEXT of this desire of Paul's?? It is ...
    11 "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." The word "resurrection" here is used only ONCE in the whole Bible. It means literally, "the resurrection OUT OF the resurrection". The Germans render it "the special resurrection". And even more profound is that this "special resurrection" MUST ATTAINED! All men will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22). Resurrection is guaranteed for the Christian by him having the Holy Spirit dwelling in him (Rom.8:23; Eph.1.14). So what resurrection must be ATTAINED. It is the resurrection that takes place BEFORE the great Tribulation. It is EARNED by INTIMACY with Christ. Have you walked His road? Have you suffered His sufferings? Have you experience the power to overcome sin and death. Have you lived to please the Father as He did? Have you only acted when He has commanded?

    And why is it a SPECIAL resurrection? Because it is, like Noah, ESCAPE BEFORE THE RAIN OF JUDGMENT! The Overcomers who have died will be resurrected some time BEFORE the onset of the great Tribulation. How long before is not said, but Noah entered refuge seven days before the judgement on the earth began.

    So in verses 12-13 Paul STRIVES for these things. He is but three years away from martyrdom. Yet he reckons himself NOT to have ATTAINED YET. So he STRIVES. And then comes verse 14. "I press toward the mark for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." The King James uses "high calling", but the word "High is an adverb. It's correct rendering is "upward". And "calling" is a noun correctly rendered "invitation". It is literally "the up-call", or "Upward-Invitation" - the Rapture. But immediately one will say, "is the Rapture not a fact"? Is is not too, like resurrection, guaranteed?" YES! BUT NOT THIS ONE! This one is a PRIZE! A PRIZE must be WON by EFFORT! Sure, all Christians will be raptured for the assize, the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ is in the clouds. But there is a Rapture to go with the Special Resurrection - ONE THAT MUST BE WON! One that takes place BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts!

    But the objection will be raised that 1st Thessalonians 4 does NOT address this. It simply says that we Christians will be resurrected and then raptured. But on careful study of 1st Thessalonians one discovers that the CONDITION is MET. Of all the Churches in the New Testament, except maybe Philadelphia, Thessaloniki was the BEST. If you read 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3 you will see that they were an exemplary Church. They had ATTAINED the PRIZE, so no word of warning is said. Much more, it is the warnings to the other Churches that should sober us. It is where PROBLEMS exist that the warnings come!

    I hope that answers your questions.
    • The world will be taken suddenly on an unknown day in Judgment
    • Just before this, those Christians who walked the walk of Jesus, will be resurrected (if they are dead) and raptured together BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts
    • The REMAINDER of the Christians must pass through the Great Tribulation and be raptured at, or near the end.

    Matthew 13 says that the "end of the age" is like a harvest. There are "Firstfruits" which are harvested first. They are those which are already ripe and mature. Then, sometime later comes the "General Harvest". They needed some more heat and dryness to mature and become ripe. Then comes the "Gleanings" - those who are especially left to profit the poor and underprivileged. I judge that the Two Witnesses are "Gleanings". They "EARNED" the "special resurrection" and the "Prize" of the upward-call, but are left to profit during a time on earth as never was and never will be.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Actually, none of these passages Luke 21:36, Rev 3:10; 14:1-7 and 1 Thess 5:9 confirms that the Church will be removed before the Great Tribulation starts. The Bible stated in several places that we must endure to the end. Furthermore, Paul said in several places that the LAST TRUMP will precede the rapture, 1 Cor 15:52. I hereby implore you to read what happens from the first to the seventh trumps in Revelation and tell me what those catastrophes are? You can't cherry pick scriptures that seem to agree with your doctrine while ignoring valid passages that challenge the validity of your position.
    I am willing to learn. Please give me your expanded exegesis of those verses. And, as an addendum can you show me that the seven trumpets were meant for the Church? A Trumpet was for "gathering" God's people (Ex.19:13). But at Jericho the Trumpets were for something else. Can you show me that the seven Trumpets of Revelation 8 meant for gathering God's people? Or where they for something else? In what way are the first six trumpets ANYTHING to do with God's People? And can you explain what the seventh trumpet did? If not, you have to consider that there are OTHER trumpets. In Exodus a trumpet called for the gathering of God's people. Again, in Leviticus 23 and 25 there are TWO different trumpets. If you find that there are various and different Trumpets, is it not you who "cherry-picked" a single Trumpet out of context?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your references to Matt 24 about the LEFT behind confirms that the ungodly will be left after the faithful are raptured. It doesn't, however, prove that they are whisked away to avoid the GT. Given your position, it makes sense for you to label every "saint" in Revelation as the so-called second chance believers who wait for the GT before they make up their mind to believe God. In 2 Thess 2:11-12, Paul said that God will pour out a strong delusion upon the ungodly to make them believe the lies of the Beast that THEY MIGHT BE DAMNED. When you advocate the doctrine of second chance believers after the rapture, I don't suppose you take this text into account?
    I must apologize but I haven't a clue what you are talking about here. You have not addressed one point I made. Then, you surmise what makes sense for me, and address that. But these are the workings of YOUR mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    When God calls his PEOPLE out of mystery Babylon, it is the general body of Christ that is in view. It is the same general church that the Beast will turn upon in Rev 12 after Israel escapes into the desert. I could go on and on to shoot down your doctrine, but what's the point? This argument has been raging since the Reformation. And I don't think it will end here. But it's always fun to revisit it from time to time.
    What about a compromise? The paragraph was to show what you hold anyway - that Christians pass through the Great Tribulation. Why not take just ONE point I used to show Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation, and show it to be incorrect. It will profit all readers. Simply putting me in a labelled box doesn't bring us further at all.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, Walls is NOT correct. the fact that the word "ekklesia" is NOT used after Chapter 3 does NOT mean the Church is not mentioned. It simply means the WORD "church" is NOT used.


    Again incorrect. You are speculating rather than dealing with what is stated.
    There is NO implication that there are two types of Christian. What it implies is that simply because you are IN church, this does not mean you are IN Christ.


    Actually no it doesn't show that either.
    Matt 24:32 is peaking of Israel. Notice it speaks of the FIG tree?
    Further this same passage is found in Luke 17:20 -37. The KEY thing to note here is that it is NOT about a rapture. It is about the NEED to flee (physically) from danger.
    Moreover it is speaking about the start of the GT, which beings with the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
    This need to flee is when Jesusis revealed:
    Luk 17:30* so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.*
    Luk 17:31* On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

    Where is this, and who is involved? It is in Jerusalem. It is about the AoD.
    This is also spoken of by Zechariah:
    Zec 14:4* On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.*
    Zec 14:5* And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.


    Let me deal with your list.
    1) the rest of her offspring means those who are NOT counted as being the woman. Who is the woman? Israel! Who are the Offspring? Christians.
    2) Again this is Christians, but those who have been martyred. When it says the Beast overcomes them it does NOT mean that he defeated them spiritually but physically.
    Rev 13:7* Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.
    3) Nope their garments are NOT dirty. Rather they are given NEW garments to replace what was worn and old. rev 14 is NOT about Christians but about the 144K who are of Israel.
    4) Actually they are living there. Just as Lot lived in Sodom - was he fraternising? God considered him righteous and sent two angels to bring him out. These are Christians living like Lot in the midst of evil. It does not mean Lot was evil, nor that these Christians are evil, but rather that the place is evil.
    Chapter 19 is NOT about saints being in Heaven, but angels.

    When Jesus comes the House of God is NOT broken up. He has already removed the tares from the field and now He comes to get the wheat.
    He comes AFTER Israel has already gone to the Wilderness and is now returning after 1260 days. It is the Festival of Booths.
    ANYONE who is a Christian is raptured. Every single one of them. The winnowing time will be over.
    It is everyone's right to disagree and express this. But have you noticed that you are only able to deny my position. You have yet to give those interested readers the correct thing by solid exegesis. I have given a position and the nearest you have come to showing the true meaning is your last rebuttal of my four points. Now I will dismantle your theory.

    In point #1 you declare, as if settled, that the Woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. Thus, you, without argument, maintain the following;
    1. The Woman is a "sign" - this means Israel is not real but a "sign". What shall the reader think of this theory? Israel is as real a real can be and is never ever used as a "sign" in the Bible.
    2. The Woman is in Heaven. Was Israel EVER in heaven? Will they ever be? Amazing exegesis!
    3. The Woman is in heaven to give birth to Jesus - but my Bible says that it was MARY - NOT ISRAEL, and on earth, in a place called Bethlehem
    4. The Woman is clothed with the sun - when EVER was Israel clothed with the sun?
    5. The Woman has the moon under her feet - when EVER did Israel have the moon under his feet
    6. Israel are the seed of Jacob - a MAN. The 12 Tribes came from FOUR WOMEN. Israel a MAN AND A WOMAN ???
    7. When EVER did a Dragon stand before Israel as she (but we have established Israel a man) brought forth Jesus
    8. If the Woman is in heaven, how can she flee to a wilderness. Is there a Wilderness in heaven for Israel?
    9. When EVER did Israel, in Heaven, but in a Wilderness that has a place prepared by God, be nourished by "they" for 1260 days?

    I think at this stage you already have enough to explain. I will forego the other three points. I await in anticipation, your exegesis.

    For reference I leave the text under discussion here.

    Revelation 12:1-6;
    1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is everyone's right to disagree and express this. But have you noticed that you are only able to deny my position. You have yet to give those interested readers the correct thing by solid exegesis. I have given a position and the nearest you have come to showing the true meaning is your last rebuttal of my four points.
    Others have already put up an alternative. I don't need to give one to be able to see where yours is in error.
    It is very simple though in Rev 16:15 we have the saints still needing patient endurance after the 6th vial is poured out.
    So there are saints on the earth at that time and have not been raptured.

    Now I will dismantle your theory.

    In point #1 you declare, as if settled, that the Woman of Revelation 12 is Israel. Thus, you, without argument, maintain the following;
    1. The Woman is a "sign" - this means Israel is not real but a "sign". What shall the reader think of this theory? Israel is as real a real can be and is never ever used as a "sign" in the Bible.
    2. The Woman is in Heaven. Was Israel EVER in heaven? Will they ever be? Amazing exegesis!
    3. The Woman is in heaven to give birth to Jesus - but my Bible says that it was MARY - NOT ISRAEL, and on earth, in a place called Bethlehem
    4. The Woman is clothed with the sun - when EVER was Israel clothed with the sun?
    5. The Woman has the moon under her feet - when EVER did Israel have the moon under his feet
    6. Israel are the seed of Jacob - a MAN. The 12 Tribes came from FOUR WOMEN. Israel a MAN AND A WOMAN ???
    7. When EVER did a Dragon stand before Israel as she (but we have established Israel a man) brought forth Jesus
    8. If the Woman is in heaven, how can she flee to a wilderness. Is there a Wilderness in heaven for Israel?
    9. When EVER did Israel, in Heaven, but in a Wilderness that has a place prepared by God, be nourished by "they" for 1260 days?

    I think at this stage you already have enough to explain. I will forego the other three points. I await in anticipation, your exegesis.
    Sorry, but this is meant to dismantle my theory?
    The statement is a sign is seen in heaven - you can use the word wonder if you prefer.
    Any sign, or symbol used in prophecy speaks of something real.
    The woman is the sign and signifies (why it is called a sign) something real. We agree that Israel is real.
    So the woman is a symbol of Israel.
    There is NO woman ACTUALLY or in REALITY in heaven - it is a SIGN.
    So from that point on the rest of your refutation is baseless.
    Mary is of Israel and is the one who gave birth to Jesus.
    Notice verse 5 has her give birth to a child and the child is caught up to God. This speaks of Jesus, so clearly we have Israel being the one who gives birth to Jesus through the individual of Mary.
    Now if you read Gen 37 you will know that Israel is expressed as sun and moon and stars.
    However if you read Matthew you will find Magi who saw a sign in the stars which led them to the REALITY.

    Israel is NEVER called a man UNLESS it is speaking of the individual who was known as Jacob. Every prophecy regarding Israel has her as a female.

    So to reiterate, you have dismantled nothing because you have built a strawman of nothing.
    The SIGN is in heaven and speaks of a REALITY on the earth.

    For reference I leave the text under discussion here.

    Revelation 12:1-6;
    1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    One thing the scripture presupposes is that folks who are reading the NT have a good familiarity with the OT. Just like those who are set to attend High School, it is assumed that they already attended Grade School. After all, the 404 verses of Revelation have relevance to over 800 OT passages. John assumed the readers of Revelation would have already taken the time to become familiar with the Tanakh (OT).

    The OT has a lot to say on the end times. And surprisingly, quite a bit to say about the righteous being hidden away during that final period. So much so that it has striking allusions that the righteous are hidden where the Lord is during that time, not just protected in some cavern somewhere. I have grown more fond of seeing the pre-trib position supported in the OT than just banding about the same NT passages. About the only thing the OT doesn't discuss is how it happens. That is where Paul comes in by showing us that mystery (something not revealed before) that the redeemed will be changed in a moment and caught up.

    And given that the Bereans were commended by the Holy Spirit for searching the scriptures daily (Tanakh was all they had) regarding what Paul was teaching them, it would seem that one would find quite a bit of supporting passages in the OT for a pre-trib position. And indeed, there is quite a bit of support.

    And that goes along with the Torah prescription that a matter can only be determined on the testimony of two or more witnesses. And the OT and NT are pretty strong witnesses. So I have generally applied the concept that for any doctrine to be substantiated, it must have supporting witness from both the OT and NT. Saves a lot of chasing one's tail around. The only doctrinal position we can take by not applying the OT is those rare instances where we are told in the NT that what is being presented is a mystery, something not brought out before.
    If the Bible is merely a work of literature, your remarks above will suffice. But fortunately, it is not. Therefore, we must diligently examine every text, every nuance for context before we shout Eureka. Alluding that for God to protect the church, they must be hidden in a cave is a direct challenge to His unrivalled capabilities.

    What I expect from Pre-trib proponents (which they conveniently shy away from) is to address the texts (e.g. rapture occurring at the last trump), that shows the improbability of the Rapture prior to the GT and explain how they support their position. Until these salient points are addressed, irrespective of how often and loud they yell from the rooftop, they won't prove their case. Since BOTH Pre-trib and Post-trib cannot be right, something has to give.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks FHG.
    Pauls prophecy in 1 Thess 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus to the earth. He comes from heaven and those who remain are transported to Him, initially in the clouds, that is: in the earths atmosphere. Then on to Jerusalem for the Millennium.
    But there are other aspects of this, where we do not have much information. The Marriage supper of the Lamb, for example, Revelation 19:7-9, that seems to happen before Jesus touches down and He destroys the armies of the Anti-Christ, chaining him up.

    What is clear is; there is no going to heaven; God's dwelling place, for those Christians who remain, who I see as mainly those who were taken to safety 1260 days before. Revelation 12:14
    1 Thess 4:15-17 is actually is NOT Jesus Christ' physical return to earth. That is a private meeting where the Lord comes to receive his faithful in the clouds [John 14:3] and takes them to heaven prior to his Glorious Return. We are told in Rev 1:7 that when he returns in the clouds every eye shall see him. However, it is clear that the wicked who are left behind after the rapture will not see this meeting in the clouds.

    I know that FHG supports the idea that the cloud meeting is Christ' return to earth, but this is erroneous. As you pointed out, John saw the Church in heaven (Rev 19:7-9) after Jesus received them in the cloud for the marriage of the Lamb. Notice in v-8 that the church is now referred to as "wife" in contrast to its previous status of virgin betrothed to Christ (2 Cor 11:2).

    In v-8 they were arrayed in white linen. In v-9 John was told that "these are those called unto the marriage supper [the millennium]. From v-11 we have the actual Return of the Lord and his retinue which include the church and his angels. Remember that in the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt 22:30). This is when every eye on earth sees the Lord return in Glory.

    I wonder how you can cite Rev 19:7-9 which John clearly placed in heaven and yet say "there is no going to heaven?

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This is correct, to a degree.
    However most of the OT references are to Israel and NOT the church.
    Importantly BEFORE Israel is hidden away it faces a calamitous day - also known as the Day of Jacob's Trouble, and IF they survive this then they may flee to the place of safety.
    There is NO OT reference to the church being protected nor is there a single NT reference either. In fact every NT reference states the opposite.

    If you would care to give a single OT reference which speaks of the church being raptured or being protected then that would be the first I have ever known, and I have looked at a few.
    My understanding of the Beast's attack on Jerusalem is that it will occur AFTER those of Israel who have accepted Christ have fled into the desert. In reference to Daniel's people, this is what Dan 12:12 means - a window of escape which if ignored, those who chose to remain in the city (Jerusalem) will be slaughtered. This is confirmed when Zech 14:2 described the fall of Jerusalem to the Beast, the majority are killed, their wifes raped, etc.

    Notice that it is the same rage driving the Beast as he realizes that Israel has fled for succour, that makes him turn on the Church (Rev 12:17) as well as Jerusalem itself. So they won't flee if they survive Jacob's trouble, rather those that have come to faith would have fled BEFORE Jacob's trouble is unleashed.

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Question......does the resurrection happen before those are taken?
    The dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture of the living (1 Thess 4:16-17).

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by emekrus View Post
    Brother Randy,

    From your exegesis its obvious you're a preterist. But my question the people who believes the great tribulation already took place in the 70AD is this...

    What about the immediate following events the Lord promised will follow. Have they also been fulfilled?
    Interesting question, indeed

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    Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I am willing to learn. Please give me your expanded exegesis of those verses. And, as an addendum can you show me that the seven trumpets were meant for the Church? A Trumpet was for "gathering" God's people (Ex.19:13). But at Jericho the Trumpets were for something else. Can you show me that the seven Trumpets of Revelation 8 meant for gathering God's people? Or where they for something else? In what way are the first six trumpets ANYTHING to do with God's People? And can you explain what the seventh trumpet did? If not, you have to consider that there are OTHER trumpets. In Exodus a trumpet called for the gathering of God's people. Again, in Leviticus 23 and 25 there are TWO different trumpets. If you find that there are various and different Trumpets, is it not you who "cherry-picked" a single Trumpet out of context?
    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The fact is that to escape in the text does not explicitly denote a physical removal. This is, unfortunately, a convenient interpretation embraced by those seeking support for a pre-trib rapture. Backtrack to v-34, Jesus warned his adherents not to imbibe in drunkenness and the cares of this 'life' so that the coming events will not take them unawares. The fact is there's no amount of preparedness that will save anyone from the GT unless it is of God. So if God intended to remove the church from the coming events, He would have warned them about these things.

    Furthermore, the reference to the cares of this life suggests that whether one dies in the GT or lives through it, the ultimate is the redemption of the soul. Whereas the case for an early rapture places emphasis on the saving of the flesh from suffering and death.

    The same is true for 1 Thess 1:9 & Rev 3:10: Jesus promised to "keep" the faithfull from the hour of temptation that will come upon the world. Again, to keep should not be limited to a physical removal of the church. The 144,000 of Rev 14:1-7 are the same in Rev 7:4 and they are so not the raptured church that I see no point in addressing it further.

    Now with regards to the trumpets, the idea of a "last trump" call outside the listed 7 trump calls in Revelation has been punted about. But without scriptural proof, I regard it as no more than conjecture. The problem with your case is that you (a) believe the church will rapture BEFORE the GT begins. (b) but the trump calls 1-7 (Rev 8:7 to Rev 11:15) shows the degrees of catastrophe that will be poured out on the earth at that time, otherwise called the wrath of the Lamb. At this time, the GT is in earnest.

    Now, following your argument, let's say the last trump which precedes the rapture comes after the listed 1-7, do you not see the problem with your case? Because trumps 1-7 actually unleash the GT on earth!

    I don't see any disagreement that a trumpet call often sounds to gather God's people. But with regards to the rapture, the question is, when? My argument stands that God's people are gathered after the GT, not before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I must apologize but I haven't a clue what you are talking about here. You have not addressed one point I made. Then, you surmise what makes sense for me, and address that. But these are the workings of YOUR mind.
    You cited Matt 24:40-41 where one is taken and the other left behind to support your view that some church are taken and some are left. I agreed with this but clarified that it will NOT HAPPEN before the GT. Yesterday, I used the figurative exchange between the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Abraham's bossom (Luke 16) to point out that there's no second chance for those who miss the rapture.

    I used what Abraham told the rich man (when he pleaded that a messenger be sent to his brothers on earth to warn them so they don't end up in hell like him) that they [people of the earth] have Moses and the prophets and should listen to them (Luke 16:29) to show that once God's judgment comes, those who are against him will not be saved.

    Your position predicates that some of those who are left behind will come to faith, isn't it? This is what I meant by 'second chance' having missed the opportunity to rapture with the church.

    I'm not sure why didn't understand what I meant...nevertheless, my position is that the doctrine of people coming to faith after the rapture will contradict what Abraham told the rich man. Because to seek Christ after the rapture would suggest that the rapture represents a 'messenger' from heaven sent to convince the ungodly that God is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    What about a compromise? The paragraph was to show what you hold anyway - that Christians pass through the Great Tribulation. Why not take just ONE point I used to show Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation, and show it to be incorrect. It will profit all readers. Simply putting me in a labelled box doesn't bring us further at all.
    I am agreeable with all the passages you provided to show the church on earth during the GT. Our disagreement is where you divide the church and place ONE group in heaven as the raptured while the latter go through the Tribulation. My position is that the Church in full will go through the GT. Some will die but the majority will remain until the tail end of the GT when they are raptured.

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    Wink Re: “About The Great Tribulation”

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Probably unwittingly, you have loaded the question.
    Well wittingly...

    If you believe that those taken in Matt 24 are the signs of the rapture that would conflict with scripture as....

    the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

    Thus the resurrection has not occur yet thus those taken cannot be believers being rapture rather the wicked being taken. You see?

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