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Thread: Abomination = Army

  1. #121
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why is it so important to you that this generation in Matt 24:34 has to be meaning what you take it to mean? Even those of us who are not interpreting this generation the same way you are, we are not denying that the temple was destroyed within the lifetimes of some of them alive at the time. If we were denying that, that would be different. Yet we are not denying that. So even if we interpret this generation to mean something else altogether, this does not deny that the temple was destroyed within the lifetimes of some of some of them alive at the time.

    So once again then, why is your interpretation of this generation so vital to you, especially since you insist you have no connection with Preterists? Preterists I can see this being vital to their position, but why this is so important to you though, that I apparently am not grasping.
    I'm glad you ask this, David! I've had a life-long interest in understanding things that I've read all my life from the Bible that did not make complete sense. The Olivet Discourse has been a virtual obsession with me--I wanted to understand why it read the way it did. It just never made sense to me until after decades of prayer I came to the understanding I have now.

    Since I don't believe God only speaks to *me,* I have to believe that the secret is to listen to others and try to hear the Holy Spirit through them. I've been doing this for very many years, and it has taken a very long time to understand something that now seems very simple to me. I can't understand why I never saw it before?

    I just don't wish to be associated with Preterism because it clouds the picture. I end up arguing as if I believed something I don't really believe. And my audience begins to think I'm saying something I'm not saying!

    It isn't belief in my definition of "generation" that makes one a Preterist. Nobody, it seems, even argued what "generation" meant in the Early Church because it was so obvious! It has only become an issue when Christians began to follow Irenaeus and Hippolytus to believe that this "generation" referred to the time of Antichrist, or as in Hal Lindsey, the time of the Rapture.

    I want to give fellow Christians a full understanding of what Jesus meant, so that the spiritual truths can be fully unveiled. I hope you'll understand...

  2. #122
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Please show where in the Bible it is defined that way?
    I know that generally people consider the Bible presents 40 years as a generation due to what happened to Israel.
    However I haven't cherry-picked. I have given you Links to what the NORMAL usage of the word is.
    NONE of them agree with your usage. SO if you have an issue, take it up with the people who make dictionaries and work in Biological Sciences, who actually utiise the word.


    You have addressed them. And I then dealt with each point you raised to show why NONE of them supports your view.
    You may feel insulted that I don't simply accept your usage of language - but I prefer to stick with how it is used as agreed by most people and as shown in dictionaries.
    Gen 15.16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

    This Hebrew sense of a "generation" denotes a virtual century--the extreme age of a man. It represents a human lifetime in a general sense.

    Matt 1.17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

    Here we see "generation" used in a genealogy, signifying less than a human lifetime, because the son succeeds the father in less than the father's full lifetime. Thus, a generation can be viewed as half a lifetime, or as a full lifetime that overlaps another, roughly.

    From Abraham to David was approx. 1000 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 70 years per generation.
    From David to the Babylonian Exile was approx. 400 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 30 years per generation.
    From the Babylonian Exile to Jesus was approx. 600 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 40 years per generation.

    But this division into 14 generations each is a memory device, and not meant to be an exact representation of every ancestor. And it does not take care to determine how great the era of a generation swings from one ancestor to another. Thus, a "generation" is a very general concept for an individual, and shortens the person's lifespan for the purpose of making a genealogical succession. They are roughly "half lives."

    Luke 9.41 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you?"

    This signifies that during the lifetime of a single man others are alive simultaneously. And so, here a "generation" signifies all of those alive *at the same time.* By extension it would mean the lifetime of all those who had been alive at the same time. So some would die younger, and some would die older. The "generation," in this sense, would be from the 1st individual in the group born to the last individual in the group to die.

    Heb 3.10 That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’

    Here it's plain that the generation in the wilderness were the contemporaries alive at the same time during the 40 year wilderness trek. It was not that a "generation" is defined by the 40 years that this generation spent there. Rather, their generation would've extended longer had they not been judged, and put to death. The lifetime of a man was longer than 60 years. (All those over 20 years old had to die.)

    Acts 13.36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed."

    Here "generation" clearly refers to the full lifetime of King David.

  3. #123
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    I don't see the borrowed phrases idea. What I see is that Jesus gave more information while upon the Mount of Olives which Matthew and Mark did not reveal, but Luke did. This is how the Four Gospels are written. I consider the Book of John going greater into depth about the events of Christ's crucifixion than the other Gospel Books.

    The particular desolation of Luke 21 many think was about the 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans. But it's actually in connection with the very end of this world when the Gentile armies will surround Jerusalem and tread the city like Rev.11:1-2 reveals, which that is to be the last 42 months of this present world (i.e., the 1260 days GT). There really shouldn't be any confusion with that coming desolation at the very end of this world, for it is not the "abomination of desolation" event which instead is about the placing of an idol in false worship by the coming Antichrist in a temple in Jerusalem. Antiochus Epiphanes placed an idol abomination inside the 2nd temple, but he had to take Jerusalem first with his army.
    Yes not many were taken with that "borrowed phrases" idea. I understand your placement of the armies of Luke 21 in the future, but the Olivet discourse starts off with Jesus referring to the destruction of the temple, which did occur in 70AD. Thus some reference to that 70 AD event is only logical seeing as they were discussing the temple destruction.

    Do you see a need to flee twice , once at the abomination, then another time at the surrounding armies at the second coming?

  4. #124
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Gen 15.16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”
    This Hebrew sense of a "generation" denotes a virtual century--the extreme age of a man. It represents a human lifetime in a general sense.
    Nope, does NOT denote a century.
    It is being used as the descendants to the fourth generation.
    So Abraham, has a son, grandson, great grandson and the fourth generation is great great grandson.
    However context points to it being from the time of his death.

    Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Joseph's children, if it were from that moment, or as Jacob was born before Abraham died, then it would be two generations further.
    So Joseph's grandchildren and then great grandchildren.
    Exodus 6 tels us of the descendants of Levi and the others.
    Moses was the son of Amram, the grandson of Kohath, the great grandson of Levi, which makes Moses the fourth generation from Jacob who was alive before Abraham died.

    Perhaps a better quote for you would be:
    Exo 1:6* Then Joseph died, and all his brothers and all that generation.*
    Here at least it means those who were born at the same time as someone else.

    Matt 1.17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
    Here we see "generation" used in a genealogy, signifying less than a human lifetime, because the son succeeds the father in less than the father's full lifetime. Thus, a generation can be viewed as half a lifetime, or as a full lifetime that overlaps another, roughly.
    Actually signalling the same as in Genesis 15.

    From Abraham to David was approx. 1000 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 70 years per generation.
    From David to the Babylonian Exile was approx. 400 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 30 years per generation.
    From the Babylonian Exile to Jesus was approx. 600 years. Divided up into 14 generations would be approx. 40 years per generation.
    Nope, Abraham to David was around 800 years. This may mean a generation of around 60 years.

    But this division into 14 generations each is a memory device, and not meant to be an exact representation of every ancestor. And it does not take care to determine how great the era of a generation swings from one ancestor to another. Thus, a "generation" is a very general concept for an individual, and shortens the person's lifespan for the purpose of making a genealogical succession. They are roughly "half lives."
    Yes a generation is NOT a persons entire life.
    You are getting to how the Bible uses the word.

    Luke 9.41 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you?"
    This signifies that during the lifetime of a single man others are alive simultaneously. And so, here a "generation" signifies all of those alive *at the same time.* By extension it would mean the lifetime of all those who had been alive at the same time. So some would die younger, and some would die older. The "generation," in this sense, would be from the 1st individual in the group born to the last individual in the group to die.
    Nope it does NOT refer to an entire lifetime. It refers to a group who are unbelieving and perverse.
    Further it does NOT mean from the earliest alive at the moment of the statement - which might be a person in their 90s, to the youngest who is just born.

    Heb 3.10 That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’
    Here it's plain that the generation in the wilderness were the contemporaries alive at the same time during the 40 year wilderness trek. It was not that a "generation" is defined by the 40 years that this generation spent there. Rather, their generation would've extended longer had they not been judged, and put to death. The lifetime of a man was longer than 60 years. (All those over 20 years old had to die.)
    Were they PUT to death? Some were. However God saw that 40 years was sufficient for that generation.

    Acts 13.36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed."
    Here "generation" clearly refers to the full lifetime of King David.
    Perhaps.

    I am glad to see you considering through the Biblical perspective.

  5. #125
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I am glad to see you considering through the Biblical perspective.
    Yes, that's what we're here to do. But we also have to use words as we understand them. I find that in our language and also as used in the Bible "generation" means those alive at the same time from youngest to oldest. This clearly spans 100 years. For example, the wilderness generation did not just consist of those 20 years and older who died during the 40 year wilderness journey. It also consisted of those from 1 to 20 who survived the 40 year wilderness journey. And it includes all the way to the end of their lives, including the last one living. Again, that is at least 100 years, since some likely lived that long.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, that's what we're here to do. But we also have to use words as we understand them. I find that in our language and also as used in the Bible "generation" means those alive at the same time from youngest to oldest. This clearly spans 100 years. For example, the wilderness generation did not just consist of those 20 years and older who died during the 40 year wilderness journey. It also consisted of those from 1 to 20 who survived the 40 year wilderness journey. And it includes all the way to the end of their lives, including the last one living. Again, that is at least 100 years, since some likely lived that long.
    Generation NEVER spanned 100 years.
    It was NOT the meaning used by Jesus, but I do understand why you claim it.
    Actually those who were of another generation, that is UNDER 20 were NOT classified as part of the same generation and so did NOT partake in the punishment. So it mattered not how long they lived.
    If we apply that to what Jesus said, then those who are under 20 shouldn't be included.

  7. #127
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Generation NEVER spanned 100 years.
    It was NOT the meaning used by Jesus, but I do understand why you claim it.
    Actually those who were of another generation, that is UNDER 20 were NOT classified as part of the same generation and so did NOT partake in the punishment. So it mattered not how long they lived.
    If we apply that to what Jesus said, then those who are under 20 shouldn't be included.
    You seem to suggest that "generation" can only be used in the sense of a genealogy? I don't agree with that. I gave you the references. You can do with them what you will.

    Psalm 90.10 Our days may come to seventy years,
    or eighty, if our strength endures.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You seem to suggest that "generation" can only be used in the sense of a genealogy? I don't agree with that. I gave you the references. You can do with them what you will.

    Psalm 90.10 [FONT="]Our days may come to seventy years,[/FONT]
    or eighty, if our strength endures.
    I did respond to each one.
    The ONLY reference you gave where you claimed it meant 100 years, I showed why it is a FALSE claim.
    You can choose to do with that what you want, but I did deal with your references.

    Psalm 90 isn't speaking of a generation but the length of a life.
    Words have meaning and I showed you the various alternatives which dictionaries recognise.

    It is NOT my definition, but that used by people who use the word.

    Now, I also dealt with your point about those in the wilderness, and that those under 20 were NOT included, yet you are determined to include them, contrary to your OWN reference. When you do that you simply undermine any respect gained by having got the references in the first place, and do harm to your view.
    If you find and use a reference then you should remain honest TO that reference.

  9. #129
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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I did respond to each one.
    The ONLY reference you gave where you claimed it meant 100 years, I showed why it is a FALSE claim.
    You can choose to do with that what you want, but I did deal with your references.

    Psalm 90 isn't speaking of a generation but the length of a life.
    Words have meaning and I showed you the various alternatives which dictionaries recognise.

    It is NOT my definition, but that used by people who use the word.

    Now, I also dealt with your point about those in the wilderness, and that those under 20 were NOT included, yet you are determined to include them, contrary to your OWN reference. When you do that you simply undermine any respect gained by having got the references in the first place, and do harm to your view.
    If you find and use a reference then you should remain honest TO that reference.
    As I said, I gave you the verses, and you can do with them as you want. I prefer to see a "generation" as the lifetime of an individual, and all those who live contemporary with that person. That is the common perception of it, and that is how I see it used in Scriptures.

    I showed you how King David's entire lifetime was included in his own generation. I showed you how an entire generation can be characterized as living through the same experience, such as the wilderness journey. Dying prematurely does *not* mean that a generation ends, if people of the *same generation* continue to live beyond the majority.

    Certainly the common use of generational records would involve geneologies. This would separate generations from other generations into smaller sections based on the *comparison* of the generations, parents to children. But still, for me the generation of a person are all those born at the same time and living during the same time. It's obvious to me, and not so obvious to you.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I said, I gave you the verses, and you can do with them as you want. I prefer to see a "generation" as the lifetime of an individual, and all those who live contemporary with that person. That is the common perception of it, and that is how I see it used in Scriptures.
    It is NOT the common perception - in fact it is contrary to common perception. Generation usually means EITHER of the same age grouping - like my father's generation, I am of another. Now if we apply this to Jesus then this means those who were over 30. So three score and ten would be within less than 40 years.
    The other usage is usually of the difference in years between generations - which is what a lot of common literature uses.
    It can however have other meanings, but these are NOT common.

    I showed you how King David's entire lifetime was included in his own generation. I showed you how an entire generation can be characterized as living through the same experience, such as the wilderness journey. Dying prematurely does *not* mean that a generation ends, if people of the *same generation* continue to live beyond the majority.
    Certainly the common use of generational records would involve geneologies. This would separate generations from other generations into smaller sections based on the *comparison* of the generations, parents to children. But still, for me the generation of a person are all those born at the same time and living during the same time. It's obvious to me, and not so obvious to you.
    I get what you are claiming, but it isn't the obvious meaning, nor the common usage. However my usage is not common either.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes not many were taken with that "borrowed phrases" idea. I understand your placement of the armies of Luke 21 in the future, but the Olivet discourse starts off with Jesus referring to the destruction of the temple, which did occur in 70AD. Thus some reference to that 70 AD event is only logical seeing as they were discussing the temple destruction.

    Do you see a need to flee twice , once at the abomination, then another time at the surrounding armies at the second coming?
    Difficult to explain, but I see the not one stone on top of another being a dual fulfillment prophecy, once for after Jesus had pronounced destruction of Jerusalem at His 1st coming, and then in final with His 2nd coming of Zech.14 and Zeph.3:8.

    Dan.9:27, Dan.11, and Rev.11 reveal the existence of a standing Jewish temple when Jesus returns, simply because of how Daniel shows old covenant worship with sacrifices will be started up again as part of the seven years agreement in Dan.9 & 11. Today, the orthodox Jews already have the materials ready to build it, even the cornerstone already cut, temple articles ready, and Levite priests. The Sanhedrin started up again already, so the only thing lacking is the coming Antichrist and the peace pact he will make allowing it. Afterall, the Jews returning to their homeland has always included the idea of another temple and old covenant worship again, since they still believe they are under the old covenant, their rejecting Jesus as Messiah still.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Difficult to explain, but I see the not one stone on top of another being a dual fulfillment prophecy, once for after Jesus had pronounced destruction of Jerusalem at His 1st coming, and then in final with His 2nd coming of Zech.14 and Zeph.3:8.

    Dan.9:27, Dan.11, and Rev.11 reveal the existence of a standing Jewish temple when Jesus returns, simply because of how Daniel shows old covenant worship with sacrifices will be started up again as part of the seven years agreement in Dan.9 & 11. Today, the orthodox Jews already have the materials ready to build it, even the cornerstone already cut, temple articles ready, and Levite priests. The Sanhedrin started up again already, so the only thing lacking is the coming Antichrist and the peace pact he will make allowing it. Afterall, the Jews returning to their homeland has always included the idea of another temple and old covenant worship again, since they still believe they are under the old covenant, their rejecting Jesus as Messiah still.
    False. Zech 14 didn't say anything the destruction of the temple. Just the fall of Jerusalem to the Antichrist. There's a difference

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    False. Zech 14 didn't say anything the destruction of the temple. Just the fall of Jerusalem to the Antichrist. There's a difference
    There are still stones on top of another on the temple mount complex in Jerusalem today. It's called the Wailing Wall. It was part of the old temple complex.

    Jesus said not one stone on top of another. That is in the absolute sense. And the Scriptures are pointing to another temple built for the end of this world for the Antichrist to sit in like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. So this isn't rocket science. All one need do is keep to the Scriptures as written.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    There are still stones on top of another on the temple mount complex in Jerusalem today. It's called the Wailing Wall. It was part of the old temple complex.
    Incorrect. The Wailing Wall was NOT part of the Temple Complex.
    It was part of the Old Jerusalem and used to support what was built higher up. Some think it was the Roman Fort which was built above.

    Jesus said not one stone on top of another. That is in the absolute sense. And the Scriptures are pointing to another temple built for the end of this world for the Antichrist to sit in like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. So this isn't rocket science. All one need do is keep to the Scriptures as written.
    The temple Jesus was speaking about has had ALL the stones levelled so that no one knows even exactly where that temple was. This prophecy is fulfilled in this respect.

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    Re: Abomination = Army

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is NOT the common perception - in fact it is contrary to common perception. Generation usually means EITHER of the same age grouping - like my father's generation, I am of another.
    Those who belong to the same age grouping live their entire lives together, some born earlier, some dying later--they are the *same generation* for the entire length of their lives! This is a common perception!

    For example, the "Baby Boomers," "Generation X," and "Millennialists" are those *born* at a certain time, and remain identified with their own particular generation *for the entire duration of their lives.* Until the last "Millenialist" dies he remains part of the "Milllennialists."

    We have a difference of opinions, brother. We may have to let it go. Unfortunately, my definition is required with my interpretation. Your interpretation prevents you from considering it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Now if we apply this to Jesus then this means those who were over 30. So three score and ten would be within less than 40 years.
    The other usage is usually of the difference in years between generations - which is what a lot of common literature uses.
    It can however have other meanings, but these are NOT common.

    I get what you are claiming, but it isn't the obvious meaning, nor the common usage. However my usage is not common either.
    Fair enough. I know what you're saying. You know what I'm saying. I respect that.

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