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Thread: Does Satan have power?

  1. #46

    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please read Paul's account of the origins of sin in man in Rom:1
    Sure, but does it not confirm our sin originates from us, our lusts our desires from our own minds?

  2. #47

    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Satan is a liar, according to Scripture when he lies, he does so from himself: ... When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own ... John 8:44. To believe that Satan only lies is an assumption and a dangerous one, which this verse doesn't say, it says WHEN.

    When the Lord Jesus walked the earth Him was given the Spirit without measure ... for God giveth not the Spirit by measure ... John 3:34. For the disciples it was already possible to see through people (discerning of spirits 1 Cor. 12:10) like with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, yet they had the Spirit by measure.

    So we have established that Scripture teaches us that there is no point in lying to Jesus and that Satan doesn't lie always or all the time. That would be foolish, it is the mixture of truth and lies people swallow, hook, line and sinker.

    Now what is said about Satan and those kingdoms? Most think that Mat. 4:8 and Luke 4:5 are mere repetitions, but are they? Then in 2 Cor. 4:4 Paul says so not Satan that Satan is the god of this aion (not world). So unless you believe Paul to be a liar as well... I don't think you do, there is more to it.

    In Luke. 4:5 the Greek says: ... shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the oikoumene ... , the oikoumene is roughly the inhabited world around Israel. In Mat. 4:8 it says: ... and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the kosmos ... , the kosmos is the whole created world , which includes the created heavens.

    Just looking at 2 Cor. 4:4 and Mat. 4:8 shows that Satan wasn't lying to Jesus, he is the god of this aion, which runs from the flood till the second coming of our Lord. That this is true is confirmed by Daniel. In Dan. 10 we read about Daniel mourning for three weeks (v. 2), in v. 12 it says: ... for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard ... , so Daniel was heard from the first day of those three weeks. What do we read next?: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days .... . Please note this is an angel speaking to Daniel and it took the help of Michael, another angel, for this angel to go to Daniel.

    So this Scripture teaches us that there are princes above the human kings who rule the kingdoms. Just see v. 20: ... and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come ... .

    So the power of Satan extends much of creation in this aion, and he may be the biggest liar, he doesn't always lie.

    Aristarkos
    Though I do not know if I agree completely with the thought process behind your examples, it is a very compelling rebuttal which I will surely ponder; thank you!

    Blessings
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

  3. #48
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    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Sure, but does it not confirm our sin originates from us, our lusts our desires from our own minds?
    Indeed, our sins start in our hearts. But to accept this as the final conclusion would suggest that God created man with an inherent desire to sin. Since we know this is not the case because God made us perfect, the question then, is where did our sin nature come from? You're a smart guy and am sure you can figure it out.

  4. #49

    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Indeed, our sins start in our hearts. But to accept this as the final conclusion would suggest that God created man with an inherent desire to sin. Since we know this is not the case because God made us perfect, the question then, is where did our sin nature come from? You're a smart guy and am sure you can figure it out.
    I was in Adam when he sinned, therefore I can claim a share in the blame and punishment.

    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.....

    1 Cor 15:22 As in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive

  5. #50
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    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Indeed, our sins start in our hearts. But to accept this as the final conclusion would suggest that God created man with an inherent desire to sin. Since we know this is not the case because God made us perfect, the question then, is where did our sin nature come from? You're a smart guy and am sure you can figure it out.
    God created man with the ability to sin, yes with lusts and desires. Of course. Obviously we were not made perfect. No such thing as a sin nature.

  6. #51

    Re: Does Satan have power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Satan is a liar, according to Scripture when he lies, he does so from himself: ... When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own ... John 8:44. To believe that Satan only lies is an assumption and a dangerous one, which this verse doesn't say, it says WHEN.

    When the Lord Jesus walked the earth Him was given the Spirit without measure ... for God giveth not the Spirit by measure ... John 3:34. For the disciples it was already possible to see through people (discerning of spirits 1 Cor. 12:10) like with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, yet they had the Spirit by measure.

    So we have established that Scripture teaches us that there is no point in lying to Jesus and that Satan doesn't lie always or all the time. That would be foolish, it is the mixture of truth and lies people swallow, hook, line and sinker.

    Now what is said about Satan and those kingdoms? Most think that Mat. 4:8 and Luke 4:5 are mere repetitions, but are they? Then in 2 Cor. 4:4 Paul says so not Satan that Satan is the god of this aion (not world). So unless you believe Paul to be a liar as well... I don't think you do, there is more to it.

    In Luke. 4:5 the Greek says: ... shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the oikoumene ... , the oikoumene is roughly the inhabited world around Israel. In Mat. 4:8 it says: ... and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the kosmos ... , the kosmos is the whole created world , which includes the created heavens.

    Just looking at 2 Cor. 4:4 and Mat. 4:8 shows that Satan wasn't lying to Jesus, he is the god of this aion, which runs from the flood till the second coming of our Lord. That this is true is confirmed by Daniel. In Dan. 10 we read about Daniel mourning for three weeks (v. 2), in v. 12 it says: ... for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard ... , so Daniel was heard from the first day of those three weeks. What do we read next?: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days .... . Please note this is an angel speaking to Daniel and it took the help of Michael, another angel, for this angel to go to Daniel.

    So this Scripture teaches us that there are princes above the human kings who rule the kingdoms. Just see v. 20: ... and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come ... .

    So the power of Satan extends much of creation in this aion, and he may be the biggest liar, he doesn't always lie.

    Aristarkos
    Brother,


    After much consideration, prayer and meditation, I have come to this conclusion:

    Satan is a liar; he always lies and to think he might not be lying is far more dangerous than to assume he is...to your first point, a lie with a little bit of truth in it is still a lie...just as something with a little smudge of dirt on it is not considered "a little clean," but "dirty," or a woman with simply a newly fertilized egg in her is not considered a "little bit pregnant, " but "wholly with child."

    Your verse says, "WHEN he lies..." It doesn't say, "IF he lies..." "When" speaks to a far more certainty than "If;" for example (1 John 2:1) "if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father..." Though it is almost a certainty that man will sin, even this verse does not use "when" but "if"...

    To your second point, it is no use for us to try to lie to Jesus, but using that assumption, it would also be no use for the devil to tempt Jesus at all...the mere fact that the devil was testing Jesus to see if He was truly the Son of God logically assumes that lying to Him would be well within his wheelhouse...

    Third, and most concrete: Who is the one lying? God...
    Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    Psalm 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
    Daniel 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.

    or the devil...
    5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

    6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

    Now, I understand that Paul called Satan "god of this aiōn," as well as in 1 Corinthians 2:8 does he call other demons "princes of this aiōn..." I believe I've already explained my position on the hierarchy of "prince" vs King of Kings, and hopefully should suffice to add that god (little g) is inferior, and thus subordinate, to God (big, BIG G...)

    Continuing, in order to answer the rebuttal before it is presented, the aiōn (or "age, period of time") was in fact one and the same as God declaring THIS: (Daniel 5:21... the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.) and Satan declaring this: (Luke 4:5...for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.) BOTH of these statements were made during the same aiōn, as Jesus was still alive, and had not yet been crucified and resurrected... therefore, to your point that Satan has much power in THIS aiōn, I agree; however, we are not talking about THIS aiōn when he made the statement of kingdom ownership...

    Therefore, I maintain that despite Satan's claim in the desert (which may have contained some truth, but enough lie to make it a lie), he had no authority or power to give anything without permission from God, which makes that statement a lie and him a liar...

    I do thank you for the discussion... it gave me pause to think, sent me to the Word, and I pray continues this most excellent, civil discussion!

    Blessings to you, Aristarkos!
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

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