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Thread: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

  1. #1
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    PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his followers as if believers, not merely as Jews. Even though Jesus hadn't been crucified yet, and we are not sure if his listeners would remain followers of Christ, Jesus is talking to them as believers. We know this especially in Matthew 24:9-10 when Jesus says: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other

    Knowing that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 24, and they ask him "what will be the sign of your coming", Jesus does not tell them to be prepared for the rapture, Jesus just tells them to prepare for his coming. He mentions a number of events at the end of this age. A trumpet, a gathering of elect, the coming of Christ. We know also that the timing of the second coming is the beginning of the millenium, which is when the first resurrection of Rev 20 occurs.
    1 Corinthians 15 also describes the same events, a last trumpet, a gathering of saints, the coming of Christ, the resurrection.

    Why do pre-tribbers like to regard 1 Corinthians 15 as an earlier rapture, when Jesus does not mention an earlier rapture, and those four events of 1 Corinthians 15 match so well with the second coming of Matthew 24? (I always find a strong overlapping of events a good indicator of the same event in mind.)

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Good question. I always find the Pretrib Rapture teaching a bizarre attachment to what otherwise would make more sense on a simple basis. It is an effort, I think, to believe that Christ can return at any time, in any generation.

    I do think it's nonsensical to think that there is an undetermined day for Christ's return. We may not know when that day is, but it has been determined, and is known, by the Father. Therefore, Christ cannot return in any generation, or at any time. We simply prepare each day we live as Christians, not by expecting that he can come today, but rather, by keeping ourselves pure, spiritually, and unspoiled by the world.

    Some Christians may simply want to believe the reign of Antichrist will be more horrible than at any other time in history, for Christians, or that God's wrath is poured out during that reign, making life unbearable for humanity. In this case it may seem wise to them to not want to believe God will leave them here during that time.

    However, I don't believe the reign of Antichrist will be any worse than any other tyrant's reign in history who hates God and His people. And I don't think God's full punishment will be unleashed upon the Antichrist until the end of his reign. I believe God wishes to have the witness of His people here throughout the reign of Antichrist, as a sign of his sure demise. God's people, at any rate, do not suffer persecution as an indication of God's wrath upon them. Rather, God's judgment is indicated by our eternal standing, which if we are faithful, will never be in doubt.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his followers as if believers, not merely as Jews. Even though Jesus hadn't been crucified yet, and we are not sure if his listeners would remain followers of Christ, Jesus is talking to them as believers. We know this especially in Matthew 24:9-10 when Jesus says: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other

    Knowing that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 24, and they ask him "what will be the sign of your coming", Jesus does not tell them to be prepared for the rapture, Jesus just tells them to prepare for his coming. He mentions a number of events at the end of this age. A trumpet, a gathering of elect, the coming of Christ. We know also that the timing of the second coming is the beginning of the millenium, which is when the first resurrection of Rev 20 occurs.
    1 Corinthians 15 also describes the same events, a last trumpet, a gathering of saints, the coming of Christ, the resurrection.

    Why do pre-tribbers like to regard 1 Corinthians 15 as an earlier rapture, when Jesus does not mention an earlier rapture, and those four events of 1 Corinthians 15 match so well with the second coming of Matthew 24? (I always find a strong overlapping of events a good indicator of the same event in mind.)
    In answer, I will first assume that you agree that the Great Tribulation is the promised wrath of God on the whole earth. It is predicted many times in the Old Testament as "the Day of the Lord". It is promised in Romans Chapter 1. It is a time that will be the worst time ever on earth, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). So this must include the flood of Noah. In the Book of Revelation the word "Wrath" appears in 13 verses and 10 of them clearly state that it is "God's WRATH". Now, why is it so difficult for Christians to think that Christ's SALVATION will not save them from God's WRATH. Why is it, when faced with the fact that the Father, and His Son - Jesus, went to such lengths, and paid such a price, to save Christians from God's righteous wrath, that the Christian DISBELIEVES this salvation from God's wrath?

    Time and time again, it is pointed out that Christians, by virtue of living in a world ruled and occupied by the enemies of God, must face the wrath OF MEN. And nearly all Christians agree, for the scriptures abound. But when it is clearly stated in unambiguous language, and IN CONTEXT of the "Day of the Lord", that we are NOT APPOINTED TO THIS WRATH, Christians will not believe it! It is, in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-11;

    1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    ...
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."


    And this UNBELIEF in Christ's SALVATION (v.9) is DESPITE the fact that God saved EIGHT people the last time He poured out His wrath on the WHOLE EARTH. What a demeaning attitude to this Great God's Mercy, Righteousness and Value He sets upon His people.
    1. Mercy because we have not earned it
    2. Righteousness because Christ has paid the price and the Father will not let those who embrace this price to pay as well
    3. Value because this salvation from God's wrath was BOUGHT with the most precious Substance of the universe - Christ's blood

    Let us examine these EIGHT PEOPLE whom God saved from the last universal Judgement. Genesis 6:8-9 says that;
    1. Noah found grace with God. What follows are the reasons why he "found grace"
    2. Noah was "perfect in his generations". This means that what "generated" him was "without blemish" (literal meaning of the Hebrew rendered "perfect"). In Noah's case it meant that he did not come from that genetic scheme of angels mating with human women. His birth came from an all-human line from Adam and Eve.
    3. Noah was a just man. This self-explanatory. Noah dealt justly with all around him
    4. Noah walked with God. This is self explanatory too. The connotation is that Noah walked hard on the heals of God. God went down a certain path and God led. Noah went down this same path and followed. When God turned left - so did Noah. When God stopped - so did Noah. When God said build and Ark on an earth that had never seen rain - Noah built. Noah did NOT do his own thing. In 6:22 and 7:5 it records that, "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
    5. Where was Noah during the Great Travail that killed "all flesh"? ABOVE the Waters of WRATH! All else perished IN the waters of wrath

    Now let us examine God's people at the cusp of the Second, and MORE SEVERE universal judgement of ALL the earth, and on ALL flesh - the Great Tribulation

    First, it is clear that if it encompasses the WHOLE EARTH, then there is no corner to hide from it. If you are on the earth you will feel the gruesome effects of this time.
    1. God's people HAVE found GRACE. Let us see if they can match Noah!
    2. Their BIRTH is "without blemish". They are BORN of the Holy Spirit. The way they are "generated" is NOT by "corruptible seed". Their "generation" (how they were "generated") is perfect. Are the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 "perfect in their generation"? NO! They are from Israel which rejects the new birth. Thus they must pass through the Great Tribulation.
    3. Are God's People - the Church - just? SOME! So SOME will miss the travail of the WHOLE WORLD
    4. Do God's People - the Church - "walk with God"? SOME! So SOME will miss the time and place of God's wrath
    5. Those who miss the Great Travail must be SOMEWHERE ELSE. Do we find SOME of the Church somewhere else? Yes!

    All that remains to be established is where the SOME are.
    • In Luke 21:36 SOME (those accounted worthy) "ESCAPE". The word in Greek means "escape by fleeing". But if they "flee" anywhere on earth they are still caught in the Travail - for it is universal. They must "flee" to a place OFF the earth. They "stand before the Son of man". Where is the Son of man during the Great Tribulation? In the clouds! In the air! He is on a journey from the Father's Throne above the highest heaven to earth.
    • In Revelation 3:10 it is "Because!". It is CONDITIONAL on something. NOT ALL but only THOSE FEW who, "kept the word of my patience"! Do ALL God's People, the Church, keep the Lord's Word of "Patience"? NO! In Matthew 24:45-51 we have a good SERVANT in God's Household - the Church. He is set to be "ruler over all His goods". But verse 48 says "THAT evil servant". It is the SAME SERVANT who turns to abuse his position in God's House. And what was the problem. "My lord delayeth his coming"! HIS PATIENCE RAN OUT! He did NOT keep the Word of the Lord's PATIENCE! He has disqualified himself from "kept from the HOUR of TRIAL". Others are "KEPT from the HOUR OF TRAVAIL" How? They must be absent from the earth for the TRAIL, "... shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    • In Revelation 14, we have another party of 144,000. The party of Revelation Chapter 7 is a NUMBERED party. That is, only a portion of ALL Israel. They must be SEALED so that what comes upon the earth doesn't touch them because they must go through the TRAVAIL. The Party of Revelation 14 is also a numbered Party. They are also ONLY A PORTION of ALL. Who are they? They are;

    1. SOME of the total - for they are numbered
    2. "with the Lamb". Like Noah, they walk "WITH the Lamb"
    3. "the follow the Lamb" Like Noah, they walk the same road - a few paces behind to show their place when in the Company of the King
    4. "have the Lamb's Father's name in their foreheads". This is a promise ONLY made to the Church in Revelation 3:12
    5. It is the "Lamb's Father's name." It must be Jehovah. They must be "BRETHREN of Jesus" having the same Father
    6. They are "redeemed from among men". They are Christians redeemed by a Redeemer
    7. They are "NOT defiled with women". A man is defiled by a woman in two ways. (i) Physically by fornication, and (ii) spiritually by idol worship. Marriage does not defile (Heb.13:4). So these could have been married but had abstained from fornication and covetousness (which is idol worship for a Christian - Col.3:5)
    8. They had "no guile in their mouths". They were speakers of truth
    9. They were "without fault" - they were, like Noah, JUST
    10. They WERE NOT ON EARTH! (i) They "were redeemed FROM the earth", and (ii) the THRONE and the 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures are all inhabitants of HEAVEN (see Chapter 4)

    THREE TIMES above we have a party of Christians who are NOT ON EARTH during the HOUR (TIME) of the Great Tribulation. The contexts concern the "Day of the Lord" and His WRATH. And those who are LIVING at this time. But now we must turn to the dead in Christ. The Church at Thessaloniki were taught by Paul in the three short weeks he was there (Act.17). What did he teach? He must have taught TWO things about the Rapture;

    (1)
    There was a Rapture because it is an "ESCAPE". There is no other reason for Rapture. In John 17:15 our Lord Jesus prays to His Father, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil" We are left on earth because we;
    • are a People for His (God's) Name - His testimony
    • are His (God's) House made without hands
    • are SALT to prevent total corruption on earth
    • are LIGHT to show the works of God
    • need training to be co-kings with Christ when He comes

    RAPTURE HAS ONE PURPOSE - TO MOVE A MAN FROM A PLACE OF PLIGHT

    (2)
    The ESCAPE is a REWARD. In the three examples above, being REMOVED from the earth during its TIME of Travail IS A REWARD. So when certain of the Thessalonian saints died, the rest of the Church were disturbed. How then can the diligent Christian be Raptured if he/she IS DEAD? ONLY LIVING PEOPLE ARE RAPTURED. So Paul, to COMFORT the Thessalonians, tells of a RESURRECTION FIRST before the Rapture. They might only be seconds apart, but the DEAD Thessalonian Christians would suffer no disadvantage by "sleeping in Christ". They would not be robbed of their reward to be caught up TOGETHER with the diligent LIVING. They would share the same glorious event of angels catching them up to defy gravity, and to defy the WRATH of God on earth that will rip the earth as we know it to shreds and make it UN-inhabitable for 3 years.

    I could go on about Paul's "STRIVING" for the "out-resurrection" and the "PRIZE" of the "up-calling" in Philippians 3. But the proofs above are evident for all to see. There is a TIME of God's universal WRATH on earth. Christians are not appointed to this. They are appointed to be REMOVED for the Travail of the earth reaches to every corner and under every little stone. BUT ... If SOME of God's people - the Church, want to shake hands with the world and partake of her delicacies, they are warned that they will be caught in the wrong place at this time of removal. Resurrection and Rapture are PROMISED - and God will bring them to pass. They question is; DO YOU WANT TO BE PART OF THAT RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE THAT ARE A REWARD AND WHICH ARE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?

  4. #4
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good question. I always find the Pretrib Rapture teaching a bizarre attachment to what otherwise would make more sense on a simple basis. It is an effort, I think, to believe that Christ can return at any time, in any generation.

    I do think it's nonsensical to think that there is an undetermined day for Christ's return. We may not know when that day is, but it has been determined, and is known, by the Father. Therefore, Christ cannot return in any generation, or at any time. We simply prepare each day we live as Christians, not by expecting that he can come today, but rather, by keeping ourselves pure, spiritually, and unspoiled by the world.

    Some Christians may simply want to believe the reign of Antichrist will be more horrible than at any other time in history, for Christians, or that God's wrath is poured out during that reign, making life unbearable for humanity. In this case it may seem wise to them to not want to believe God will leave them here during that time.

    However, I don't believe the reign of Antichrist will be any worse than any other tyrant's reign in history who hates God and His people. And I don't think God's full punishment will be unleashed upon the Antichrist until the end of his reign. I believe God wishes to have the witness of His people here throughout the reign of Antichrist, as a sign of his sure demise. God's people, at any rate, do not suffer persecution as an indication of God's wrath upon them. Rather, God's judgment is indicated by our eternal standing, which if we are faithful, will never be in doubt.
    True, think about those Christians in ISIS territory. They experienced martyrdom through beheadings. It cannot get worse than that. Even pre-tribs believe in the so-called tribulation saints that go through the tribulation and persecution, so they still believe the church will be there, just not us, some other Christians.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    In answer, I will first assume that you agree that the Great Tribulation is the promised wrath of God on the whole earth. It is predicted many times in the Old Testament as "the Day of the Lord". It is promised in Romans Chapter 1. It is a time that will be the worst time ever on earth, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). So this must include the flood of Noah. In the Book of Revelation the word "Wrath" appears in 13 verses and 10 of them clearly state that it is "God's WRATH". Now, why is it so difficult for Christians to think that Christ's SALVATION will not save them from God's WRATH. Why is it, when faced with the fact that the Father, and His Son - Jesus, went to such lengths, and paid such a price, to save Christians from God's righteous wrath, that the Christian DISBELIEVES this salvation from God's wrath?

    Time and time again, it is pointed out that Christians, by virtue of living in a world ruled and occupied by the enemies of God, must face the wrath OF MEN. And nearly all Christians agree, for the scriptures abound. But when it is clearly stated in unambiguous language, and IN CONTEXT of the "Day of the Lord", that we are NOT APPOINTED TO THIS WRATH, Christians will not believe it! It is, in 1st Thessalonians 5:1-11;

    1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    ...
    8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."


    And this UNBELIEF in Christ's SALVATION (v.9) is DESPITE the fact that God saved EIGHT people the last time He poured out His wrath on the WHOLE EARTH. What a demeaning attitude to this Great God's Mercy, Righteousness and Value He sets upon His people.
    1. Mercy because we have not earned it
    2. Righteousness because Christ has paid the price and the Father will not let those who embrace this price to pay as well
    3. Value because this salvation from God's wrath was BOUGHT with the most precious Substance of the universe - Christ's blood

    Let us examine these EIGHT PEOPLE whom God saved from the last universal Judgement. Genesis 6:8-9 says that;
    1. Noah found grace with God. What follows are the reasons why he "found grace"
    2. Noah was "perfect in his generations". This means that what "generated" him was "without blemish" (literal meaning of the Hebrew rendered "perfect"). In Noah's case it meant that he did not come from that genetic scheme of angels mating with human women. His birth came from an all-human line from Adam and Eve.
    3. Noah was a just man. This self-explanatory. Noah dealt justly with all around him
    4. Noah walked with God. This is self explanatory too. The connotation is that Noah walked hard on the heals of God. God went down a certain path and God led. Noah went down this same path and followed. When God turned left - so did Noah. When God stopped - so did Noah. When God said build and Ark on an earth that had never seen rain - Noah built. Noah did NOT do his own thing. In 6:22 and 7:5 it records that, "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."
    5. Where was Noah during the Great Travail that killed "all flesh"? ABOVE the Waters of WRATH! All else perished IN the waters of wrath

    Now let us examine God's people at the cusp of the Second, and MORE SEVERE universal judgement of ALL the earth, and on ALL flesh - the Great Tribulation

    First, it is clear that if it encompasses the WHOLE EARTH, then there is no corner to hide from it. If you are on the earth you will feel the gruesome effects of this time.
    1. God's people HAVE found GRACE. Let us see if they can match Noah!
    2. Their BIRTH is "without blemish". They are BORN of the Holy Spirit. The way they are "generated" is NOT by "corruptible seed". Their "generation" (how they were "generated") is perfect. Are the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 7 "perfect in their generation"? NO! They are from Israel which rejects the new birth. Thus they must pass through the Great Tribulation.
    3. Are God's People - the Church - just? SOME! So SOME will miss the travail of the WHOLE WORLD
    4. Do God's People - the Church - "walk with God"? SOME! So SOME will miss the time and place of God's wrath
    5. Those who miss the Great Travail must be SOMEWHERE ELSE. Do we find SOME of the Church somewhere else? Yes!

    All that remains to be established is where the SOME are.
    • In Luke 21:36 SOME (those accounted worthy) "ESCAPE". The word in Greek means "escape by fleeing". But if they "flee" anywhere on earth they are still caught in the Travail - for it is universal. They must "flee" to a place OFF the earth. They "stand before the Son of man". Where is the Son of man during the Great Tribulation? In the clouds! In the air! He is on a journey from the Father's Throne above the highest heaven to earth.
    • In Revelation 3:10 it is "Because!". It is CONDITIONAL on something. NOT ALL but only THOSE FEW who, "kept the word of my patience"! Do ALL God's People, the Church, keep the Lord's Word of "Patience"? NO! In Matthew 24:45-51 we have a good SERVANT in God's Household - the Church. He is set to be "ruler over all His goods". But verse 48 says "THAT evil servant". It is the SAME SERVANT who turns to abuse his position in God's House. And what was the problem. "My lord delayeth his coming"! HIS PATIENCE RAN OUT! He did NOT keep the Word of the Lord's PATIENCE! He has disqualified himself from "kept from the HOUR of TRIAL". Others are "KEPT from the HOUR OF TRAVAIL" How? They must be absent from the earth for the TRAIL, "... shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    • In Revelation 14, we have another party of 144,000. The party of Revelation Chapter 7 is a NUMBERED party. That is, only a portion of ALL Israel. They must be SEALED so that what comes upon the earth doesn't touch them because they must go through the TRAVAIL. The Party of Revelation 14 is also a numbered Party. They are also ONLY A PORTION of ALL. Who are they? They are;

    1. SOME of the total - for they are numbered
    2. "with the Lamb". Like Noah, they walk "WITH the Lamb"
    3. "the follow the Lamb" Like Noah, they walk the same road - a few paces behind to show their place when in the Company of the King
    4. "have the Lamb's Father's name in their foreheads". This is a promise ONLY made to the Church in Revelation 3:12
    5. It is the "Lamb's Father's name." It must be Jehovah. They must be "BRETHREN of Jesus" having the same Father
    6. They are "redeemed from among men". They are Christians redeemed by a Redeemer
    7. They are "NOT defiled with women". A man is defiled by a woman in two ways. (i) Physically by fornication, and (ii) spiritually by idol worship. Marriage does not defile (Heb.13:4). So these could have been married but had abstained from fornication and covetousness (which is idol worship for a Christian - Col.3:5)
    8. They had "no guile in their mouths". They were speakers of truth
    9. They were "without fault" - they were, like Noah, JUST
    10. They WERE NOT ON EARTH! (i) They "were redeemed FROM the earth", and (ii) the THRONE and the 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures are all inhabitants of HEAVEN (see Chapter 4)

    THREE TIMES above we have a party of Christians who are NOT ON EARTH during the HOUR (TIME) of the Great Tribulation. The contexts concern the "Day of the Lord" and His WRATH. And those who are LIVING at this time. But now we must turn to the dead in Christ. The Church at Thessaloniki were taught by Paul in the three short weeks he was there (Act.17). What did he teach? He must have taught TWO things about the Rapture;

    (1)
    There was a Rapture because it is an "ESCAPE". There is no other reason for Rapture. In John 17:15 our Lord Jesus prays to His Father, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil" We are left on earth because we;
    • are a People for His (God's) Name - His testimony
    • are His (God's) House made without hands
    • are SALT to prevent total corruption on earth
    • are LIGHT to show the works of God
    • need training to be co-kings with Christ when He comes

    RAPTURE HAS ONE PURPOSE - TO MOVE A MAN FROM A PLACE OF PLIGHT

    (2)
    The ESCAPE is a REWARD. In the three examples above, being REMOVED from the earth during its TIME of Travail IS A REWARD. So when certain of the Thessalonian saints died, the rest of the Church were disturbed. How then can the diligent Christian be Raptured if he/she IS DEAD? ONLY LIVING PEOPLE ARE RAPTURED. So Paul, to COMFORT the Thessalonians, tells of a RESURRECTION FIRST before the Rapture. They might only be seconds apart, but the DEAD Thessalonian Christians would suffer no disadvantage by "sleeping in Christ". They would not be robbed of their reward to be caught up TOGETHER with the diligent LIVING. They would share the same glorious event of angels catching them up to defy gravity, and to defy the WRATH of God on earth that will rip the earth as we know it to shreds and make it UN-inhabitable for 3 years.

    I could go on about Paul's "STRIVING" for the "out-resurrection" and the "PRIZE" of the "up-calling" in Philippians 3. But the proofs above are evident for all to see. There is a TIME of God's universal WRATH on earth. Christians are not appointed to this. They are appointed to be REMOVED for the Travail of the earth reaches to every corner and under every little stone. BUT ... If SOME of God's people - the Church, want to shake hands with the world and partake of her delicacies, they are warned that they will be caught in the wrong place at this time of removal. Resurrection and Rapture are PROMISED - and God will bring them to pass. They question is; DO YOU WANT TO BE PART OF THAT RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE THAT ARE A REWARD AND WHICH ARE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?
    Thanks, I think a fair response overall. I used to think the pre-trib view is impossible, but I guess one has to acknowledge that some bible verses are open to interpretation. Thus it is a matter of likelihood/credibility between the two positions, rather than the one completely disproving the other.

    WRATH: I disagree with your premise that the great tribulation is the promised wrath. Events unfold with increasing intensity towards the end. We have the long period of wrath on Jews as per Luke 21, , and we have the 3.5 years of Satan's wrath as per Rev 12 (covering the whole GT), then we have the bowls of wrath towards the end of the GT , and then we have an even increased intensity of God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

    For various reasons I position the rapture occurring just before the armies attack Jerusalem on the day of the Lord, thus we escape God's intense wrath:

    Rev 6 places the patience of the martyrs just before the second coming of the 6th seal
    Rev 14 places the first harvest, just before the harvest of wrath/winepress
    Rev 16:14-21 places the patience of the church just before Armageddon
    Rev 19 places the gathering of the wedding feast just before the second coming/winepress
    1 Thess 4/5 places the rapture just before the wrath/thief on the day of the Lord
    1 cor 15 places the rapture at the coming of Christ, at the last trumpet, at the resurrection

    Sure all these are debatable, but my methodology is to take the most obvious meaning in each case.


    ESCAPE: Luke 21:36
    I understand the pre-trib view of this verse, but it lacks a little logic.
    Imagine telling your son, you will have a tough time at boarding school, but if you are diligent you will get a good education, and if you are diligent you will enjoy sports, and if you are diligent I wont send you to boarding school. This does not make sense.
    Yet pretribs believe that Jesus is giving a long list of signs and telling his faithful church how to endure and be patient while waiting for the second coming, Only to be told at the end in v36 that we wont even go through it?? We need to have a closer look at context:

    4 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
    What is about to happen? The church be will weighed down with distractions. We must watch and pray that we escape all of this. This is what the verse is telling us in context, and makes more sense.

    Hour of Trial: Rev 3:10
    What is the hour of trial? Is it 3.5 years long or is it one day of earthquakes and meteorites and war? The verse does not say, so it is not a proof verse for pre-trib

    I am not intending a lengthy debate on each point, because these debates can carry on forever, just to give you a chance to express your view. But please feel free to discuss any points.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good question. I always find the Pretrib Rapture teaching a bizarre attachment to what otherwise would make more sense on a simple basis. It is an effort, I think, to believe that Christ can return at any time, in any generation.

    I do think it's nonsensical to think that there is an undetermined day for Christ's return. We may not know when that day is, but it has been determined, and is known, by the Father. Therefore, Christ cannot return in any generation, or at any time. We simply prepare each day we live as Christians, not by expecting that he can come today, but rather, by keeping ourselves pure, spiritually, and unspoiled by the world.

    Some Christians may simply want to believe the reign of Antichrist will be more horrible than at any other time in history, for Christians, or that God's wrath is poured out during that reign, making life unbearable for humanity. In this case it may seem wise to them to not want to believe God will leave them here during that time.

    However, I don't believe the reign of Antichrist will be any worse than any other tyrant's reign in history who hates God and His people. And I don't think God's full punishment will be unleashed upon the Antichrist until the end of his reign. I believe God wishes to have the witness of His people here throughout the reign of Antichrist, as a sign of his sure demise. God's people, at any rate, do not suffer persecution as an indication of God's wrath upon them. Rather, God's judgment is indicated by our eternal standing, which if we are faithful, will never be in doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    True, think about those Christians in ISIS territory. They experienced martyrdom through beheadings. It cannot get worse than that. Even pre-tribs believe in the so-called tribulation saints that go through the tribulation and persecution, so they still believe the church will be there, just not us, some other Christians.
    My comments are as follows.

    The day of Christ's return IS known. Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

    The Great Tribulation is not made by a "tyrant's reign". It is made by the unimaginable wrath of God on "all flesh". We should heed scripture. It not a case of some violent beheadings, or even of Nero's predilection for tarring a Christian, and with a stake driven through his lower jaw into the ground to hold him erect, setting him on fire to light up his gardens at night. It is much greater than that. Matthew 10:28 advises us, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." It is a case of men seeking death and being unable to find it as the Creator and Sustainer of men intervenes (Rev.9:6). It is a case of each man suffering the hundredfold of Job's sufferings.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Thanks, I think a fair response overall. I used to think the pre-trib view is impossible, but I guess one has to acknowledge that some bible verses are open to interpretation. Thus it is a matter of likelihood/credibility between the two positions, rather than the one completely disproving the other.

    WRATH: I disagree with your premise that the great tribulation is the promised wrath. Events unfold with increasing intensity towards the end. We have the long period of wrath on Jews as per Luke 21, , and we have the 3.5 years of Satan's wrath as per Rev 12 (covering the whole GT), then we have the bowls of wrath towards the end of the GT , and then we have an even increased intensity of God's wrath on the day of the Lord.

    For various reasons I position the rapture occurring just before the armies attack Jerusalem on the day of the Lord, thus we escape God's intense wrath:

    Rev 6 places the patience of the martyrs just before the second coming of the 6th seal
    Rev 14 places the first harvest, just before the harvest of wrath/winepress
    Rev 16:14-21 places the patience of the church just before Armageddon
    Rev 19 places the gathering of the wedding feast just before the second coming/winepress
    1 Thess 4/5 places the rapture just before the wrath/thief on the day of the Lord
    1 cor 15 places the rapture at the coming of Christ, at the last trumpet, at the resurrection

    Sure all these are debatable, but my methodology is to take the most obvious meaning in each case.


    ESCAPE: Luke 21:36
    I understand the pre-trib view of this verse, but it lacks a little logic.
    Imagine telling your son, you will have a tough time at boarding school, but if you are diligent you will get a good education, and if you are diligent you will enjoy sports, and if you are diligent I wont send you to boarding school. This does not make sense.
    Yet pretribs believe that Jesus is giving a long list of signs and telling his faithful church how to endure and be patient while waiting for the second coming, Only to be told at the end in v36 that we wont even go through it?? We need to have a closer look at context:

    4 Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.
    What is about to happen? The church be will weighed down with distractions. We must watch and pray that we escape all of this. This is what the verse is telling us in context, and makes more sense.

    Hour of Trial: Rev 3:10
    What is the hour of trial? Is it 3.5 years long or is it one day of earthquakes and meteorites and war? The verse does not say, so it is not a proof verse for pre-trib

    I am not intending a lengthy debate on each point, because these debates can carry on forever, just to give you a chance to express your view. But please feel free to discuss any points.
    Yes. I agree. My lengthy part is in my first posting. Just some comments again.

    I tend to agree that the Great Tribulation will unfold in intensity, just like the plagues of Egypt and just like the curses of the Law in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. But this point is moot if those "accounted worthy" are gone anyway. But your argument about the souls of the martyrs calling for vengeance after the sixth seal is a good one. The deciding factor there is one's understanding of the "White Robes". According to 2nd Corinthians 5 a dead man is naked. These men are not naked anymore. Could the giving of the "White Robes" be Philippians 3:21 - the resurrection when, "(He - Christ) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." I say this because in Revelation 1:13 our Lord Jesus is clothed with a full-length garment and in the Transfiguration it was "white as the light". The clothed Lord was the resurrected Lord.

    The only objection then is why, and where do they rest? Well, in the time of the Seals one may rest in Hades, or in the Sky, but certainly not on earth. Added to this, the martyr's prayer is "when will you avenge us?" The answer is, it is still future - another proof that this discourse happened at the beginning of the Tribulation. But, as I said, you have a good argument.

    Your argument on the escape in Luke 21 is answered thus. Your example is a call for diligence DURING the Great Tribulation. But the diligence required is to exercised BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Those who are once in the ribulation are (i) Overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7) and (ii) hiding in a Wilderness (Rev.12:17). It is much too late for the slovenly Christian to consider a call to diligence. The call to diligence does not come during the Great Tribulation. It comes well before - in the Olivet Discourse.

    Your argument against Revelation 3:10 I answer thus. No matter what the "hour" is, or what the "Trail" is, the verse emphasizes that BECAUSE of certain actions the Christians will be KEPT FROM IT. So what they are are secondary to the thought of the verse. But I think you know what the "hour" and the "trial" are. It says that it comes upon "all the earth and all who dwell in it". There is only ONE universal Tribulation isn't there brother - the Great Tribulation?

    If I may be bold, I would like to say that what many Christians find offensive about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that it seems to be an easy "OUT" from trouble. They look back at the history of Israel and the Church and say; "why do these Christians, living at this specific time, escape, but Peter, Paul and all those Christians through the age faced unimaginable persecution?" To this, I say that a GENERAL Pre-Tribulation Rapture is pure fantasy. But if you take my version, that of only the Overcomers experiencing a Pre-Trib Rapture, then a heavy price is to be paid by the select few that make it. In Philippians 3:8-14 we have Paul STRIVING and/or PRESSING for (i) the "OUT-resurrection" in verse 11, and the Prize of the upward-call in verse 14. And what does he say is included in this process?
    1. Suffering the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    2. That I may know him. This entails a walk along the same road. Christ's road was very bitter
    3. The power of his resurrection. This I judge is the power to overcome sins (Rom.6:1-14). This is a brutal battle within a saint (Gal.5:17)
    4. The fellowship of his sufferings. Besides the bitter road that Christ walked in His lifetime, He suffered immensely. He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isa.53:3)
    5. Being made conformable unto his death. Few Christians appreciate that Christ died TWICE in that 24 hour period of the Passover. In Matthew 10:28 God threatens that the death of the soul is far worse than the death of the body. In Gethsemane, our Lord cried out that His SOUL was suffering "unto death", and He sweated blood - hematohidrosis, a rare condition when extreme stress cause blood to infiltrate the sweat glands. The physical death followed over 6 hours - an horrific death. And yet it is the lesser of the two deaths (if one cold have the cheek to say that). This is the price Paul was willing to pay for the "out-resurrection" and the Prize of the "upward call".

    It is at once clear that the PRICE for being in the SELECT resurrection and Rapture is terribly high. Paul wrote Philippians Chapter 3 about 3 years before his death. He had served Christ diligently and with much tribulation. But he was still unsure whether he has "ATTAINED"! There is no "OUT" from the Great Tribulation. The PRICE is enormously high and must be paid VOLUNTARILY BEFORE the onset of the Tribulation.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I tend to agree that the Great Tribulation will unfold in intensity, just like the plagues of Egypt and just like the curses of the Law in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. But this point is moot if those "accounted worthy" are gone anyway. But your argument about the souls of the martyrs calling for vengeance after the sixth seal is a good one. The deciding factor there is one's understanding of the "White Robes". According to 2nd Corinthians 5 a dead man is naked. These men are not naked anymore. Could the giving of the "White Robes" be Philippians 3:21 - the resurrection when, "(He - Christ) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." I say this because in Revelation 1:13 our Lord Jesus is clothed with a full-length garment and in the Transfiguration it was "white as the light". The clothed Lord was the resurrected Lord.

    The only objection then is why, and where do they rest? Well, in the time of the Seals one may rest in Hades, or in the Sky, but certainly not on earth. Added to this, the martyr's prayer is "when will you avenge us?" The answer is, it is still future - another proof that this discourse happened at the beginning of the Tribulation. But, as I said, you have a good argument.
    Thanks for your comments, I don't find your "clothing" argument compelling. The status and resting place of the saved after death is a whole new discussion. The saved are certainly not in Hades, that is a hot and uncomfortable place.


    Your argument on the escape in Luke 21 is answered thus. Your example is a call for diligence DURING the Great Tribulation. But the diligence required is to exercised BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Those who are once in the ribulation are (i) Overcome by the Beast (Rev.13:7) and (ii) hiding in a Wilderness (Rev.12:17). It is much too late for the slovenly Christian to consider a call to diligence. The call to diligence does not come during the Great Tribulation. It comes well before - in the Olivet Discourse.
    I think you missed my point, that if your interpretation of v36 is correct, it would render the Olivet discourse nonsensical. This will occur to you, that will occur to you, but you wont even be there. Also the alternative makes sense.

    Your argument against Revelation 3:10 I answer thus. No matter what the "hour" is, or what the "Trail" is, the verse emphasizes that BECAUSE of certain actions the Christians will be KEPT FROM IT. So what they are are secondary to the thought of the verse. But I think you know what the "hour" and the "trial" are. It says that it comes upon "all the earth and all who dwell in it". There is only ONE universal Tribulation isn't there brother - the Great Tribulation
    The day of wrath will also come upon all on earth, it is the most intense part of the trib. I see no reason why the hour can't be the Lord's day of wrath.

    If I may be bold, I would like to say that what many Christians find offensive about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that it seems to be an easy "OUT" from trouble. They look back at the history of Israel and the Church and say; "why do these Christians, living at this specific time, escape, but Peter, Paul and all those Christians through the age faced unimaginable persecution?" To this, I say that a GENERAL Pre-Tribulation Rapture is pure fantasy. But if you take my version, that of only the Overcomers experiencing a Pre-Trib Rapture, then a heavy price is to be paid by the select few that make it. In Philippians 3:8-14 we have Paul STRIVING and/or PRESSING for (i) the "OUT-resurrection" in verse 11, and the Prize of the upward-call in verse 14. And what does he say is included in this process?
    1. Suffering the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
    2. That I may know him. This entails a walk along the same road. Christ's road was very bitter
    3. The power of his resurrection. This I judge is the power to overcome sins (Rom.6:1-14). This is a brutal battle within a saint (Gal.5:17)
    4. The fellowship of his sufferings. Besides the bitter road that Christ walked in His lifetime, He suffered immensely. He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isa.53:3)
    5. Being made conformable unto his death. Few Christians appreciate that Christ died TWICE in that 24 hour period of the Passover. In Matthew 10:28 God threatens that the death of the soul is far worse than the death of the body. In Gethsemane, our Lord cried out that His SOUL was suffering "unto death", and He sweated blood - hematohidrosis, a rare condition when extreme stress cause blood to infiltrate the sweat glands. The physical death followed over 6 hours - an horrific death. And yet it is the lesser of the two deaths (if one cold have the cheek to say that). This is the price Paul was willing to pay for the "out-resurrection" and the Prize of the "upward call".

    It is at once clear that the PRICE for being in the SELECT resurrection and Rapture is terribly high. Paul wrote Philippians Chapter 3 about 3 years before his death. He had served Christ diligently and with much tribulation. But he was still unsure whether he has "ATTAINED"! There is no "OUT" from the Great Tribulation. The PRICE is enormously high and must be paid VOLUNTARILY BEFORE the onset of the Tribulation.
    I personally find nothing offensive about a pre-trib rapture, it just confuses me why anyone thought one exists. Matthew 24 quite simply matches 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4/5. (coming of Christ/resurrection/gathering/ trumpet). We must watch and pray that we can escape distractions before the second coming and so be ready.

    We escape the hour of trial, the wrath on the DOTL, because we are not appointed to wrath. This all fits well, without 2 trumpets, two comings, two resurrections, two gatherings in the clouds.

    The thief is only a surprise to the unsaved:
    suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of THAT servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

    While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thessalonians tells of a RESURRECTION FIRST before the Rapture.
    There is a TIME of God's universal WRATH on earth. Christians are not appointed to this. They are appointed to be REMOVED
    So how can the Christians be removed prior to the wrath of God when the resurrection is still to come? The resurrection happens AFTER the wrath of God!!!!

    Your view conflicts with scripture (again). This is your scenario.

    Rapture----Wrath of God-----Resurrection

    Scripture states this scenario

    Wrath of God----Resurrection-----Rapture

    16 And the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Thanks for your comments, I don't find your "clothing" argument compelling. The status and resting place of the saved after death is a whole new discussion. The saved are certainly not in Hades, that is a hot and uncomfortable place.




    I think you missed my point, that if your interpretation of v36 is correct, it would render the Olivet discourse nonsensical. This will occur to you, that will occur to you, but you wont even be there. Also the alternative makes sense.


    The day of wrath will also come upon all on earth, it is the most intense part of the trib. I see no reason why the hour can't be the Lord's day of wrath.



    I personally find nothing offensive about a pre-trib rapture, it just confuses me why anyone thought one exists. Matthew 24 quite simply matches 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4/5. (coming of Christ/resurrection/gathering/ trumpet). We must watch and pray that we can escape distractions before the second coming and so be ready.

    We escape the hour of trial, the wrath on the DOTL, because we are not appointed to wrath. This all fits well, without 2 trumpets, two comings, two resurrections, two gatherings in the clouds.

    The thief is only a surprise to the unsaved:
    suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of THAT servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

    While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
    But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief
    OK. Gotcha. I know you said no long discussions, but one day you must sit down and write an exegesis of those three scriptures. It helps a lot because you have to consider every word, its meaning, how it appears in the sentence, how it appears in light of the context, its counter argument, its counter-counter argument and its counter-counter-counter argument. In the mean time - God bless.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So how can the Christians be removed prior to the wrath of God when the resurrection is still to come? The resurrection happens AFTER the wrath of God!!!!

    Your view conflicts with scripture (again). This is your scenario.

    Rapture----Wrath of God-----Resurrection

    Scripture states this scenario

    Wrath of God----Resurrection-----Rapture

    16 And the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
    My esteemed brother,
    (1) Don't be one of those guys who takes a half sentence, out of context, and then builds the other man's argument for him. That is what the modern ungodly press do. Quote my WHOLE TEXT. Then indicate which phrase, sentence or paragraph you object to, tell why in an expanded argument of your own, and then give us all the benefit of your own exegesis of it. Thanks .. and God bless.

    (2) You quoted me above as writing ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    Thessalonians tells of a RESURRECTION FIRST before the Rapture.
    ... and then turn around and say that "this is my scenario" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Rapture----Wrath of God-----Resurrection

    C'mon dear brother. You'll end up looking foolish.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    …………………………..
    You stated the following...

    Thessalonians tells of a RESURRECTION FIRST before the Rapture.
    And then you stated this.....

    There is a TIME of God's universal WRATH on earth. Christians are not appointed to this. They are appointed to be REMOVED
    I pointed out the following....

    "how can the Christians be removed prior to the wrath of God when the resurrection is still to come? The resurrection happens AFTER the wrath of God!!!!"

    Scripture states this scenario

    Wrath of God----Resurrection-----Rapture

    Scripture then would say that we then are NOT removed (Pre-Trib) before the wrath of God!


    You are saying that the rapture happens before the wrath of God. And would be this scenario.

    Rapture----Wrath of God-----Resurrection


    So what is your order? Do you need to reconsider what you have been taught?

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his followers as if believers, not merely as Jews. Even though Jesus hadn't been crucified yet, and we are not sure if his listeners would remain followers of Christ, Jesus is talking to them as believers. We know this especially in Matthew 24:9-10 when Jesus says: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other

    Knowing that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 24, and they ask him "what will be the sign of your coming", Jesus does not tell them to be prepared for the rapture, Jesus just tells them to prepare for his coming. He mentions a number of events at the end of this age. A trumpet, a gathering of elect, the coming of Christ. We know also that the timing of the second coming is the beginning of the millenium, which is when the first resurrection of Rev 20 occurs.
    1 Corinthians 15 also describes the same events, a last trumpet, a gathering of saints, the coming of Christ, the resurrection.

    Why do pre-tribbers like to regard 1 Corinthians 15 as an earlier rapture, when Jesus does not mention an earlier rapture, and those four events of 1 Corinthians 15 match so well with the second coming of Matthew 24? (I always find a strong overlapping of events a good indicator of the same event in mind.)
    Since the base doctrine of the Pre-trib Rapture theory is escaping the tribulation, but also recognizing our Lord Jesus' day of return to subdue the wicked on earth, that is why they split the so-called rapture timing apart from the second coming. To them, 1 Thess.4 by Paul is the rapture prior to the trib, but 1 Cor.15 is the day of Christ's return to end the trib. and gather what they call "tribulation saints".

    It's really in support of the idea of a rapture to escape the tribulation, an idea that first began to be taught in 1830's Great Britain by John Darby from the Edward Irving church. Prior to that, the Christian Church held to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of His Church.


    Things to Consider:

    1. Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 revealed the gathering of His Church is after the tribulation. Pre-trib usually denies that our Lord Jesus was speaking to His Church in His Olivet discourse there, but He was.


    2. The gathering of the saints in Matt.24 and Mark 13 directly parallels the gathering of the Church according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4.

    a. In Matt.24:29-31, at Jesus' coming, the angels gather the saints "from one end of heaven to the other."(Matt.24:31). According to 1 Thess.4, who would that apply to? It's about the 'asleep' saints in Heaven that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. That is pointing directly to the resurrection. And Paul even says in 1 Thess.4 that no way will we precede (KJV "prevent") those asleep saints who have already died in Christ. That is the same group of saints gathered in the Matt.24:31 verse.

    b. In Mark 13:27, Jesus gathers His saints "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Who would these be according to 1 Thessalonians 4? These are the saints who remain, that are alive on earth on the day of Jesus' return.


    3. Both of the above 2 groups make up all of Christ's Church which He will gather on the day of His return. An event is often repeated in more than one Scripture, and often also more detail is usually given between them. Thus Matt.24 and Mark 13 where Jesus gave the main signs of the end of this world after His disciples asked Him, are directly linked to the timing of His gathering of His Church on the last day of this world which Apostle Paul also covered in 1 Thess.4.


    4. The signs for the end Jesus gave us, His Church, in His Olivet discourse, are the signs of the Seals of Revelation 6. That's the order given in the seals.

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    True, think about those Christians in ISIS territory. They experienced martyrdom through beheadings. It cannot get worse than that. Even pre-tribs believe in the so-called tribulation saints that go through the tribulation and persecution, so they still believe the church will be there, just not us, some other Christians.
    Yes, I've always been bothered by that bit of inconsistency. All the argument about how Christians should not be here, and if they are, they are bad--they are the "lukewarm"--they missed the Rapture! And then the same people argue how the Tribulation saints become noble and bold, laying their lives down for Christ. Which is it? Saints or sinners?

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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Excuse me for butting in, yet I have to say this:

    The idea of 'escape' in Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3 being kept from the hour of temptation, is relative to the events our Lord Jesus warned us about leading up to His coming. It is wrong to create a whole separate 'escape' doctrine while rejecting the signs of the end He gave us to be watching, so we'd not be... what? So we would not be deceived. Our Lord Jesus' first major sign for the end was for us to not allow any man to deceive us (Luke 21:8).

    For example, in Luke 21 with His giving us all those signs of the end to watch for, how would we do that if He meant we are to literally be removed beforehand? So one can use Greek lexicons all day long to try and create different meanings for how He meant "escape", but it's obvious the common sense link to those signs He gave us to be watching overrules ideas of literally escaping those tribulation events.

    And the link is to not allow any man to deceive us. Our escape during the coming great tribulation is not about physical escape; it's about escaping the temptation that will lead to deception. All out war is not what the coming tribulation will be about. It's going to be a time of world peace, albeit but a fake peace by a fake Messiah which the whole world will worship (except for Christ's elect).

    In 1 Thess.5 regarding the "wrath" Apostle Paul said we are not appointed to, that is NOT... the great tribulation by Satan. Paul was speaking of God's Wrath upon the wicked on the last day... of this world, the event that Peter revealed in 2 Pet.3:10 about God's consuming fire burning man's works off the surface of the earth on the day of the Lord. It's about God's cup of wrath on the 7th Vial, which is on the last day of this present world. We are not appointed to suffer that.

    In 1 Thess.5 Paul is pulling from the OT prophet Isaiah about the time of the very end when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That is the day of God's Wrath, the last day of this world, the day of Armageddon, the 7th Vial poured out into the air, the day Jesus returns and gathers His Church and defeats all His enemies. That is what the "day of the Lord" is about, not the "great tribulation".

    More simply:

    "great tribulation" = not upon the wicked; the wicked-deceived will be saying "Peace and safety".

    God's cup of wrath = upon the wicked; the day of a "sudden destruction" upon them that Paul said we are not appointed to.

    "day of the Lord" = that last day event of destruction upon the wicked according the OT prophets, Paul, and Peter. That is NOT... the tribulation time. It will end... the time of great tribulation. The Pre-trib Rapture theory is teaching that backwards.

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