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Thread: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

  1. #91
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I re-iterate, I don't regard that as a significant point, it does not matter where the seals are broken. I don't think you will ever convince anyone to change their view of the 6th seal based on where you think the seals are opened.
    Possibly not. However there are some who claim God is NOT on the earth because the fire comes down from heaven.
    The difference here is that Jesus is STILL in heaven, which obviously He would NOT be IF this was about His return.

    A lot of John's visions occur in the throne room, or in heaven. This does not make them the same vision. The very scriptures you quote to prove your point highlight my point, that the 7th seal belongs with chapters 5/6/7 and THEN JOHN SAW the vision regarding the 7 trumpets. Just because you state things emphatically does not make you right.
    I do get your point about multiple visions and locations.
    However HOW do we KNOW when it is a NEW vision?
    We ONLY know when there is a CHANGE. It can ALL be one long vision but with changes of scenery or a number of visions tied into one.
    There is NO change from the 7th seal and the 7 trumpets. In fact the wording points to it being the SAME vision, with one event happening after another.

    You are correct here, I was wrong. It is just half an hour, not 1000 years. Half an hour is not much of an interruption to the victorious proceedings.
    I am not sure that the 7th seal is about victory - I see it more as the clam before the storm.

    Just before the 6th seal, the martyrs are told to wait a little longer. Then during the 6th seal the church is seen in heaven in Ch 7. Only then is the 7th seal of silence. I see nothing contradicting anything here, the 6th seal is the second coming and rapture of the church.
    Indeed they are told to wait a little longer, and you are further correct that Chapter 7 speaks of things which MUST occur BEFORE they are to be with God.
    In Chapter 7 they are NOT in heaven but on earth.
    Rev 7:1* After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree.
    Rev 7:2* Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,*
    Rev 7:3* saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”*

    Notice it speaks of what is to happen on earth.

    Rev 7:9* After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

    This is occurring in Jerusalem (NJ) and is a repeat of what happened when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.
    I don;t think there are palm branches in heaven.

    Now IF you are arguing that Chapter 7 chronologically follows Chapter 6 and the 6th seal, then it is a bit TOO late to be sealing the servants of God, as according to you the rapture has happened.
    IF however like me this is NOT so much a chronological sequence but rather speaking of a REQUIREMENT and then the END situation
    The 6th seal has NOTHING about Jesus' return. It is simply a sign in the heavens which PEOPLE claim is God, but then they will fell foolish because it isn;t and turn from Him.

    Sure there are a lot of possibilities but the fact that John does use the following phrases to start new visions, does open the possibility that the 7 trumpets are a new vision:
    Rev 4:1 After this I looked
    Rev 5:1 And I saw
    Rev 8:2 And I saw
    Rev 12:1 And there appeared
    Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw
    Rev 14:1 And I looked
    Rev 15:1 And I saw
    Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman
    Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw
    Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard
    Rev 19:11 And I saw
    Rev 20:1 And I saw
    Rev 21:1 And I saw
    About the only ones that seem certain to be new visions are Rev 4:1 and Rev 17:3 - yet even these are but a movement WITHIN the vision.

    Sure it is possible that Rev 8:2 is not a new vision, but on the balance of logic, it is a new vision. Rev 8:1 belongs with the vision of the seven seals, not with the vision of the trumpets. I am not saying your view is impossible, merely less likely, and unable to disprove my view.
    On the balance of logic Rev 8:2 is NOT a new vision. The location and everything else is the same UNLIKE for example Rev 4:1 or Rev 17:3.

  2. #92
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post

    Just before the 6th seal, the martyrs are told to wait a little longer. Then during the 6th seal the church is seen in heaven in Ch 7. Only then is the 7th seal of silence. I see nothing contradicting anything here, the 6th seal is the second coming and rapture of the church.
    Looks like everyone who is a believer is killed...

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    Does this mean they were raptured? Are they not given white robes because they were killed.....

    Rev 7
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    the 6th seal is the second coming and rapture of the church.
    The 7th seal is clearly the return.

    I know you are trying so dearly to hold on to the rapture but note the resurrection has to occur first before a supposed rapture according to Thess.

  3. #93
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Looks like everyone who is a believer is killed...

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    Does this mean they were raptured? Are they not given white robes because they were killed.....

    Rev 7
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



    The 7th seal is clearly the return.

    I know you are trying so dearly to hold on to the rapture but note the resurrection has to occur first before a supposed rapture according to Thess.
    The resurrection is the rapture according to 1 Cor 15.

  4. #94
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his followers as if believers, not merely as Jews. Even though Jesus hadn't been crucified yet, and we are not sure if his listeners would remain followers of Christ, Jesus is talking to them as believers. We know this especially in Matthew 24:9-10 when Jesus says: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other

    Knowing that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 24, and they ask him "what will be the sign of your coming", Jesus does not tell them to be prepared for the rapture, Jesus just tells them to prepare for his coming. He mentions a number of events at the end of this age. A trumpet, a gathering of elect, the coming of Christ. We know also that the timing of the second coming is the beginning of the millenium, which is when the first resurrection of Rev 20 occurs.
    1 Corinthians 15 also describes the same events, a last trumpet, a gathering of saints, the coming of Christ, the resurrection.

    Why do pre-tribbers like to regard 1 Corinthians 15 as an earlier rapture, when Jesus does not mention an earlier rapture, and those four events of 1 Corinthians 15 match so well with the second coming of Matthew 24? (I always find a strong overlapping of events a good indicator of the same event in mind.)
    I kind of stopped posting here because when someone proves a point via the Scriptures you guys just ignore the facts and pretend it never happened. I understand, it's better to just be oblivious to something than to admit the scriptures say otherwise. The Pre tribulation Rapture is not even debatable, I even question how people can't see the obvious, it's incredulous to me that Christians can't see what the scriptures spell out in obvious terms. Ignoring facts don't change the facts.

    In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking mainly unto his disciples thus Matthew 24:9-10 is Jesus telling the Disciples how they are going to have to die for the Gospels sake, and save John most every one of them died the death of a Martyr. Matt. 24:1-6 answers the question about the the first point Jesus made, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS COME TO PASS was the first question, Jesus thus answered about that first of when the Temple would be destroyed, he thus mentions FALSE CHRISTS/FALSE PROPHETS 3 distinct times on purpose, in verse 5 he speaks about the false messiahs he prophesied in John 5:43 the Pharisees would put forth [just before Jerusalem was destroyed]. Then in verses 7-14 Jesus speaks about a 2000 some odd year Church age. Thus he warns all of this whole period about false teachers/preachers like Jim Jones/David Koresh or any weird religion, he explains the Disciples fate, then tells them THEY must endure as must we all until the END [OF ONE'S LIFE], just like Paul stated, we must run the race unto the end.

    In verses 15-31 we are told about the Tribulation period and the Second Coming of Jesus. Of course thus we are told about THE False Prophet and Anti-Christ. Of course Matthew wrote what Jesus said well after these statements were made. Of course Matthew sees the Matt. 36-51 verses as having to come at the very end, when in fact it is THE RAPTURE which Jesus only explained unto Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles !! Thus the Rapture is explained, and it and be nothing else, in verses 36-51. No one can be surprised by the Second Coming, it is going to happen exactly 1260 days after after the Anti-Christ/Beast takes over Jerusalem, we can all count right ? The only SURPRISE COMING can be the Rapture whereby Jesus takes away the Church, you know the ONE IS TAKEN...........and the OTHER IS LEFT !! Which you guys try to twist around as meaning something else because it proves there is a pre tribulation Rapture. I don't get what is so hard about this brothers, stop trying to force something that isn't there.

    We see Matt. 24:36-51 speaks about a time like unto Noah, a surprise coming, then we see the Marriage to the Bride in Matt. chapter 25 with 5 virgins going and 5 being left behind !! There were no chapters and verses, those were added. The First Resurrection covers all of those who are DEAD in Christ, not just the Rev. 20 Saints who died during the Tribulation period. The Second Resurrection are the Wicked or dead in Christ who are judged in 1000 years. The Rapture is the First Resurrection as is those who are raised after the Second Coming.

  5. #95
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    We see Matt. 24:36-51 speaks about a time like unto Noah, a surprise coming, then we see the Marriage to the Bride in Matt. chapter 25 with 5 virgins going and 5 being left behind !! .
    I am not so sure that the virgin deal of Matthew 25 is the marriage of the Messiah to the Bride. Most of everything Yeshua talked about correlated to the 1st Century Jewish marriage tradition.

    The groom and his betrothed enter into a marriage contract and it is sealed by sharing a cup of wine. That is the equivalent of the passover supper event between Yeshua and His disciples.

    The groom pays the dowry or bride price for his betrothed. Yeshua paid the price for His bride with His death on the Cross.

    After this, the groom then returns to his father's house to prepare a bridal chamber or Chupah. He will not be allowed to go get his bride until the father approves this. If anyone asks the groom when the marriage will be, he is to answer "only my father knows". Likewise, Yeshua returned to the Father's house to prepare a place for us. John 14:2. And only the Father knows when the Son can go get His bride. Matthew 24:36 / Mark 13:32.

    When the time to go get his bride arrives, he goes to get her, usually under cover of darkness. He does not enter the bride's house, but calls to her from outside. He then receives her to himself and they return to the bridal chamber / Chupah that he has prepared. And they consulate the marriage and stay in the Chupah for 7 days. Likewise, when the Father determines, Yeshua comes for His bride. He does not enter our house (earth) but calls us from outside (in the air or boundary of the atmosphere). 1 Thessalonians 4:17. He then receives us to himself. John 14:3. And He then takes us to the place He has prepared for us, and we are with Him for 7 years, the equivalent of the 7 days of the Chupah for a Jewish couple in the 1st Century.

    At the end of the time of the Chupah, the groom emerges with his bride and the wedding banquet / feast begins. It takes a while to gather all the guests from far and wide, and it occurs during the time the groom and bride are consummating the marriage during the 7 days of the chupah. They that have made themselves ready for the wedding banquet are allowed in attendance, others are shunned. The bride's helpers, what we would call the bride's maids today, are the 10 virgins of Matthew 25. it was the bride's maids that helped the bride be ready for when the groom came. Likewise, Israel prepared the way for the bride (church) by providing the scripture and the Messiah. In Matthew 25, the virgins represent Israel on the earth. Only those who finally acknowledged the Messiah and had oil in their lamps (Holy Spirit) are allowed into the wedding banquet. In Matthew 25:10, wedding is Greek gamos, which has the meaning of wedding banquet / feast / festival. It is not the marriage ritual we know of today in the western world.

    Israel is the main focus of Matthew 25, just as in most of Matthew 24. The context focus doesn't change. The sheep and goat judgement is the nations being judged on how they treated Yeshua's brethren, Israel. it is an exposition on Joel 3:1-3. The virgins story was showing how many of Israel remain at the end of the GT are allowed in. The sheep and goat judgement shows how many of the nations are allowed into the banquet. it is showing those still alive at the end of the GT period that are going into the kingdom to repopulate the earth where Yeshua and His Bride are ruling from Jerusalem, in the restored nation of Israel, over the entire earth.

    I realize the Jewish wedding analogy almost appears to be made up to match the pre-trib position and align with various passages regarding Yeshua, but the 1st century Jewish marriage customs are extremely well documented. And it matches what Yeshua talked about regarding the redeemed. No slight of hand tricks going on with the type and analogy above.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  6. #96

    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    I pretty much agree, Cliff, that the 10 Virgins are not who He's MARRYING, but those who come to faith AFTER the Rapture of the Church has occurred (same for the Sheep of the Gentiles/nations in Matt25:31-34 and context), and are who will enter the earthly MK time period (in their natural bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children).

  7. #97
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking mainly unto his disciples thus Matthew 24:9-10 is Jesus telling the Disciples how they are going to have to die for the Gospels sake, and save John most every one of them died the death of a Martyr. Matt. 24:1-6 answers the question about the the first point Jesus made, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS COME TO PASS was the first question, Jesus thus answered about that first of when the Temple would be destroyed, he thus mentions FALSE CHRISTS/FALSE PROPHETS 3 distinct times on purpose, in verse 5 he speaks about the false messiahs he prophesied in John 5:43 the Pharisees would put forth [just before Jerusalem was destroyed]. Then in verses 7-14 Jesus speaks about a 2000 some odd year Church age. Thus he warns all of this whole period about false teachers/preachers like Jim Jones/David Koresh or any weird religion, he explains the Disciples fate, then tells them THEY must endure as must we all until the END [OF ONE'S LIFE], just like Paul stated, we must run the race unto the end.

    In verses 15-31 we are told about the Tribulation period and the Second Coming of Jesus. Of course thus we are told about THE False Prophet and Anti-Christ. Of course Matthew wrote what Jesus said well after these statements were made. Of course Matthew sees the Matt. 36-51 verses as having to come at the very end, when in fact it is THE RAPTURE which Jesus only explained unto Paul, the Disciple of the Gentiles !! Thus the Rapture is explained, and it and be nothing else, in verses 36-51. No one can be surprised by the Second Coming, it is going to happen exactly 1260 days after after the Anti-Christ/Beast takes over Jerusalem, we can all count right ? The only SURPRISE COMING can be the Rapture whereby Jesus takes away the Church, you know the ONE IS TAKEN...........and the OTHER IS LEFT !! Which you guys try to twist around as meaning something else because it proves there is a pre tribulation Rapture. I don't get what is so hard about this brothers, stop trying to force something that isn't there.
    You say your view is obvious but when I read the text from v36, I see no sign whatsoever of a subject change. Yet you claim the subject has moved on from the gathering of tribulation saints in v31 to the gathering of pre-tribulation saints in v40. I don't see the subject change at v36, on the contrary v36 says "but about that day" more obviously referring back to a day already mentioned, not a new day.

    In addition I see that is the wicked servant of v40 who has the unexpected day. "The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of."

    So your view is a possibility, but I wouldn't claim it is the most obvious view from the text.

  8. #98
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    Re: PRE-TRIBS: Why the duplication?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I pretty much agree, Cliff, that the 10 Virgins are not who He's MARRYING, but those who come to faith AFTER the Rapture of the Church has occurred (same for the Sheep of the Gentiles/nations in Matt25:31-34 and context), and are who will enter the earthly MK time period (in their natural bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children).
    Hi TDW,
    Just curious, how can you conclude that from the text itself? The second coming is described as 10 brides who should be ready for the groom , but some are not. Sure this is open to multiple interpretation but does not favor the pre trib view, unless you can point to any verse that favors your interpretation?

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