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Thread: New Heaven New Earth

  1. #211
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Now that you mentioned it, doesn't Dan 7:14 seal it for Jesus? Who else is "given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."?
    It is probably the closest reference to Jesus in the OT and I think the reason he often used that title:
    Mat 9:6* But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.”
    79 verses in the gospels.

    If you agree that Revelation is not in chronology, why then would you lob everything in Rev 21 and 22 into once continuous chronology? Doesn't it raise questions about your position and objectivity? How do you explain Rev 20, 21 and 22? Do you see them occurring in sequential order or not?

    I reckon it's imperative that we sort this out otherwise we'll be going round in circles. For what it's worth, my position is that Rev 21 & 22 is a mismatch of events that are neither concurrent nor fit the same timescale - some are separated by 1000 years.
    I haven't said all Revelation is not in chronology. I have in fact often stated that we are given clear statements of chronology such as the seals being given in order, the trumpets likewise and the vials too. It is natural to assume a chronology UNLESS there is something which shows a change whihc then allows you to consider is it further information about something already revealed or about to be revealed.
    So Rev 7 has information BEFORE the GT and the picture AFTER the GT.
    Rev 21 and 22 has the statement about the NJ DIRECTLY connected with the NHNE. Therefore that is how we should understand it. What are you told about the NHNE beyond what is said abut the NJ?
    Rev 20 is given in a chronological fashion. This is again very clear because time words are used.
    There are within this though statements which are about outside of that time but which give information.
    Rev 21 and 22 then tells us the timing - it is when the NJ descends from heaven - which allows us to put it into the other chronology.
    Each part MUST be read in CONTEXT and any connectors noted and accepted.
    All of Rev 21 and 22 is about the NJ in the NHNE and about what happens in that time period.

    If "context" is the only guide and determinant, then we should also accept that the GWTJ in Rev 20 actually occurs before the events of Rev 21 & 22! How do you explain this? Further, does the NHNE cover the whole earth when the MK starts or is it only NJ? You need to consider this seriously because scripture never said it starts from Jerusalem and spreads out. But when it comes, it will cover the whole of heaven and earth.
    Nope, CONTEXT does NOT demand that. CONTEXT says, what is stated in each portion and how is each portion stated to relate to another.
    Does Rev 21 state the NHNE covers the whole earth at the start? No. This is an assumption which may or may not be correct. Within Rev 21 we read about nations existing OUTSIDE the NJ. It mentions the unclean outside who can't gain entry.
    Isiah 65 using the same language also points to a world that is being renewed. Ezekiel 47 clarifies further.
    No one vision gives us everything. However it does tell us something about what ever it is focusing on.
    Actually where is God's kingdom on earth? Where is He dwelling with man? This is Jerusalem.
    Daniel 2 shows the same idea. It will eventually cover the whole earth, and then Satan is released to deceive one last time.

  2. #212
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So am I (and everybody else) to understand that the verses in Rev 21 and 22 which speak of the NJ ARE occurring DURING the MK, and that you put it ALL separate to the NHNE?
    Apart from you and perhaps a couple of others, I haven't seen anyone who believes what you claim. You can have an NHNE starting with the MK without dealing aspects of Rev 20: 11 & 13

    No prophecy is general in nature. I am waiting for a single one which is. I have read all your posts (I think) and none of those were general.
    What's the point of asking for "a single one" since you have rejected the ones I gave you.

    I agree that the NHNE is the renewed H&E. It is NOT the same as the NJ is also agreed. However WHEN does God start renewing the H&E?
    We are told in Isaiah 65 that this is at the time when God comes and renews Jerusalem and the wolf and lamb lie down together. Ezekiel 47 speaks of the same thing.
    I do NOT conflate, I simply note that he NHNE starts WITH the NJ coming down. The NJ is the place from where the renewing comes. The Tree of Life and the River of Life flowing out to bring healing for the nations and life to the land.
    So no NJ in the NHNE?
    The emboldened summarizes why you are so far out in your understanding. As heaven and earth covers everywhere, it is the same way the NHNE which also will cover the whole. Your belief that it starts from NJ tells me all I need to know - you got this wrong big time.

  3. #213
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Apart from you and perhaps a couple of others, I haven't seen anyone who believes what you claim. You can have an NHNE starting with the MK without dealing aspects of Rev 20: 11 & 13
    EVERYONE agrees that the NJ and the NHNE in rev 21 and 22 are in the SAME time period.
    Amil says it happens after Jesus returns, and after having studied their scriptural reasons I accept most of what they put about the NHNE starting when Jesus returns.
    It is not just me saying this.
    I have FULLt dealt with Rev 20:11 and 13. I have shown you the Greek which explicitly shows the phrase about the H&E passing away was NOT happening at that moment but at a time in the past.

    What's the point of asking for "a single one" since you have rejected the ones I gave you.
    So that you finally produce one which actually supports your view.
    All the ones I have rejected I have rejected with reasons why, which you have not dealt with or shown to be incorrect reasoning.

    The emboldened summarizes why you are so far out in your understanding. As heaven and earth covers everywhere, it is the same way the NHNE which also will cover the whole. Your belief that it starts from NJ tells me all I need to know - you got this wrong big time.
    Nope. There is an NHNE just as your and I become New Creations the MOMENT we are born again.
    However even though we are ENTIRELY New, yet we also need to be transformed.
    It is the SAME usage of language for the NHNE.
    It is NEW, there is a complete CHANGE for the ENTIRE World. Jesus has won the victory and has come to earth. The powers that used to be are gone. The heaven and the earth are therefore ENTIRELY new. However they also need renewing. The River of Life is flowing out and brings transformation. The leaves bring healing for the nations - which still exist for a time.
    It is NOT my belief that is at odds with scripture. It is just your trying to make it a certain way without accepting what is stated.

  4. #214
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes I agree that they would have had a different way of looking at the phrase a new earth. The word earth means land, mainly just referring to the land of Israel. It is a strange thing how adding the word "a" into a sentence also changes its feel. How different are these two phrase:
    There will be a new earth
    There will be new land/country

    After the civil war, America was a new land. Using the correct wording, things are not as dramatic as the incorrect translations make them seem. When the KJV was written, the translation was correct, because earth was soil/land. It baffles me why English translators continued to use the word "earth" in their translations after the word changed its meaning. When it was discovered we live on a planet, the word earth became the word used to represent the planet itself, and then it was no longer relevant to ancient Hebrew/Greek which had no word for the planet.





    That's one way of looking at it, a less literal day of the Lord, and two events 1000 years apart mentioned as if one.

    Another way of looking at it, is that the second coming will be a day of fire in which basic matter will melt, and the land of Israel will be burnt (NOT planet earth, the word does not mean that). I tend to the literal, and prefer the more literal day of the Lord, which is mainly described as a single day of wrath.
    Very sensible perspective. Thanks.

  5. #215
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If per my take on things the DOTL involves the 7 vials of wrath, why should I assume all 7 vials are poured out in the same 24 hour period?

    Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Should we take this to mean...and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled....IOW until 24 hours or less have been fulfilled?
    There are several references to the DoTL, the day of wrath, etc. In John 6:39,40,43, 54 alone Jesus said 4x that he will raise the dead on the "last day". If you believe that the wrath of the Lamb and the resurrection will not run concurrently, but within 24hrs, then you're alone on this one.

  6. #216
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why do you see the day of the Lord involving all 7 vials of wrath? The wrath escalates towards the end, culminating in an intense day of wrath, a day we will not experience because we are not appointed to that wrath on the DOTL. One can see the timing of the rapture reflected in the wording of Rev 16:15-16, during the 6th bowl, just before Armageddon and the great earthquake and hailstones and mountains and islands removed. The day of the Lord starts with a surprise war on Israel according to Joel, fitting in with the 6th bowl of Armageddon:

    Joel 2 The Lord thunders
    at the head of his army;
    his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
    The day of the Lord is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?
    The above plainly show how wrong you are.

    1. You posit that the church will not be around to witness the day of wrath. This supposes that the resurrection/rapture will occur BEFORE the day of the wrath.
    2. But in John 6, Jesus said he will raise the dead on the 'last day'.
    3. Unless it is your expert opinion that the day of wrath and the DoTL are separate and unrelated, you have clearly fallen into a hole of your own making because this two event (resurrection/rapture and God's wrath) all belong to the DoTL and are separated by more than 24hrs!

  7. #217
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The above plainly show how wrong you are.

    1. You posit that the church will not be around to witness the day of wrath. This supposes that the resurrection/rapture will occur BEFORE the day of the wrath.
    2. But in John 6, Jesus said he will raise the dead on the 'last day'.
    3. Unless it is your expert opinion that the day of wrath and the DoTL are separate and unrelated, you have clearly fallen into a hole of your own making because this two event (resurrection/rapture and God's wrath) all belong to the DoTL and are separated by more than 24hrs!
    Hi, my answer to you disappeared when the site crashed, just replying for the record.

    You do well to point out my error, I believe the rapture/resurrection occurs earlier on the day of the Lord, before all the wrath unfolds on that day. I shouldn't have said that the church will not be around to experience the day of wrath, what I meant is that the church will not be around to experience the WRATH on that day. I believe we will be raptured earlier on that day of wrath.

    Rev 16 gives an indication (no proof, just implication) when this event will occur, while the armies are gathering, but before they actually reach Armageddon:
    14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
    15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
    16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

  8. #218

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    The truth is that the planet we live on will be split into three sections and become moons and parts of the other worlds God will create. The NHNE are just one of the four planets that will be in this system. They will be four stars with their planets just as Ezekiel has said and gates made to enter heaven. God will plant man on these worlds just as He has done with this planet. It is soon to happen and when you see them coming you will know that I have told you so. But remember Christ will be with you even to the end of the world.

  9. #219

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    God plants man on earth. The planet east of Eden

    8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

    God destroys earth and builds another. This star system sweeping thru our solar system.

    19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.

    The brass man is building another solar system what everyone calls Ezekiel's Temple, rightfully so. Christ removes his followers and takes them into the Fathers house in heaven. This temple is where Christ will dwell with His people, not on earth.

    43 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:

    2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

    3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

    4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

    5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.

    6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

    7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

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