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Thread: New Heaven New Earth

  1. #46
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes definitely. But it can happen more than once because we are only talking about a surface transformation. If it was an actual New Earth, a new planet, we would have more of a tendency to want to coincide all verses about a NHNE at the end of the millenium as per the NHNE of Rev 20. But knowing that it's just a land transformation, it's more feasible/credible that context determines when that particular land transformation occurs.
    And when does context in your estimation, indicate it will start?

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes definitely. But it can happen more than once because we are only talking about a surface transformation. If it was an actual New Earth, a new planet, we would have more of a tendency to want to coincide all verses about a NHNE at the end of the millenium as per the NHNE of Rev 20. But knowing that it's just a land transformation, it's more feasible/credible that context determines when that particular land transformation occurs.
    Also, I'm not averse to the suggestion that the NHNE will be a mere "transformation" of the current heaven and earth. The reality is that no one knows that for sure. But suffice it will that whatever form it takes, it will be nice, clean and pure.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Part of the NHNE? Is NJ divided into bits? Please elaborate?
    The verse which states the NJ comes down is DIRECTLY connected to the NHNE.
    The NJ is the centre of, and source of the NHNE. It is the place of Jesus' throne.


    Isa 66:23 corroborates Zech 14:17. Both have Jesus in place, not the Godhead.
    Nope, NEITHER mention Jesus:
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*

    Zec 14:17* And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.*

    For BOTH Isaiah and Zechariah they had no separation of the godhead, and saw this as being God. It is you reading into it something which isn't there.

    The sea mentioned in Rev 20:13.
    Yes, sea is mentioned in rev 20:13. It is also mentioned elsewhere in Revelation.
    The question is what does the word "sea" mean in the CONTEXT.
    In this passage it is a place of dead souls.

    The above is the common error made by those who haven't thought this through. The question you must answer is whether the NHNE will cover only the NJ or traverse the whole earth and heaven as we know it? While the NJ is limited to Jerusalem, there's nothing in scripture that says the NHNE will also be limited to that little space in the Mid-East. I challenge you to rebut this with scripture.
    As I have thought this through in detail then I disagree with your claim that it is an error.
    The simple answer about the NHNE is that it STARTS in NJ but will cover the whole earth.
    The NJ is specifically stated separately to the NHNE as it is but the key component, but NOT the whole.
    I like how Dan 2 puts it:
    Dan 2:35* Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.*

    Notice the change that occurs. It starts as a stone, but BECOMES a great mountain, which then fills the whole earth.

    Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,*
    Dan 2:45* just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”*

    And the explanation confirms this. There is a final beast kingdom which is destroyed and the kingdom God sets up will stand, never to be destroyed (even though Satan tries to after 1K years).

    God indeed is omnipresent. However, if he is on earth when Satan's army surrounds the NJ, he could have sent fire from earth also. Yet the text (Rev 20:9) said: "fire came down from heaven". So with this and other info, I am satisfied that God is in heaven during the millennium. Elijah was a man calling upon God who is in heaven - this comparison is rather weak, don't you think?
    Nope. Fire is NEVER sent from the earth. Can you find a single passage where this happens?
    Further this phrase indicates its origin is from God.
    So no the comparison is not weak, and it is about triumphing over enemies bu God, and NOT Man.

    There is NOTHING which requires God to somehow to be limited to heaven in order for the fire to come from there.
    It is your demand which is actually very weak and limits God.

    1. Please explain why the sea is present in Rev 20:13 GWTJ - end of the 1000 years and not in Rev 21:1? There is no mistake that the sea here is literal and not figurative of something else because the text says it released the DEAD in it!
    Is Hades literal? Not in a physical sense. And where is your physical death located? yet we note these two locations are also mentioned in this same verse:
    Rev 20:13* And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

    The sea simply is a symbol of where people have died who have been lost at sea.

    2. How do you explain its absent here Rev 12:1? If the NHNE starts at the onset of the millennium with the sea present, why did it suddenly disappear? Either the Bible lied or you are WRONG.
    John said he saw the NJ several times, it is a general statement. The key is to follow the sequence of events according to scripture to ascertain where each event fits in. Failing to do this obviously is an own goal and you'll never get the proper understanding of things.
    Rev 12 there is indeed a sea mentioned. So not sure why you say it is absent.
    Perhaps this is a typo and you mean Rev 21:1
    I do indeed follow the sequence of events and they are quite simple, seals followed by trumpets followed by vials.
    However we are also given asides like Rev 17 which speaks about Mystery Babylon. This is to give further information.
    Rev 21 and 22 returns to the time when Jesus has returned and what happens - it gives more information about the 1000 years and what it would be like. The chronology was given in Rev 20. We have no information time wise AFTER he end of Rev 20.

    There is a PHYSICAL sea in Rev 21, however the question is what sea is being referred to in Rev 21 as it is not about PHYSICAL bodies of water.
    There are TWO other uses of sea in Revelation.
    One refers to where dead souls are - which as people still die DURING the MK, I think is NOT being referred to.
    The other usage is meaning kingdoms - and in particular Beast kingdoms. Now those kingdoms ALL have come to an end when Jesus comes to reign. So there is no sea, means there is no longer dominion of Man over Man, as there was, but rather the Dominion of Jesus.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Also, I'm not averse to the suggestion that the NHNE will be a mere "transformation" of the current heaven and earth. The reality is that no one knows that for sure. But suffice it will that whatever form it takes, it will be nice, clean and pure.
    In some ways we do know that it's just a surface transformation. Because the phrase NHNE is associated with the day of the Lord in Isaiah 64/Isaiah 65/2 Peter 3. So the transformation described in Ezekiel 47/48 and Zechariah 14 and parts of Revelation is this NHNE without the need for a whole new planet.

    The transformation in Rev 20 seems even more dramatic, but cannot contradict those verses in the OP which describe the foundations of the land lasting forever. We will never have a new planet. This one is here to stay.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    In this verse there is the first heaven and the first earth, and that the text indicates both were passed away when John sees a NHNE. This obviously means there can't be another new heaven and new earth after the first heaven and first earth, but prior to the new heavens and new earth in verse 1. So what I'm I getting at here?

    Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    This has to be the exact same new heavens and a new earth, as in Revelation 21:1. Wherever one places the timing of Isaiah 65:17-20, they must place the timing of Revelation 21:1 as well, otherwise we end up with nonsense in Revelation 21:1. The chronology would be..the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, plus the NHNE in Isaiah 65 were passed away, then a another new heavens and a new earth...IOW total nonsense and not what the text is plainly indicating. There are not 3 heavens and 3 earths in view in Revelation 21:1, there are only two. Those being the first heaven and the first earth, a new heaven and a new earth. That adds up to two, not three.

    the first heaven and the first earth, The NHNE of Isaiah 65, the NHNE of Revelation 21, that adds up to three of each, not two of each, if the NHNE in Isaiah 65 is not the same as the NHNE in Revelation 21:1.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    In this verse there is the first heaven and the first earth, and that the text indicates both were passed away when John sees a NHNE. This obviously means there can't be another new heaven and new earth after the first heaven and first earth, but prior to the new heavens and new earth in verse 1. So what I'm I getting at here?

    Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    This has to be the exact same new heavens and a new earth, as in Revelation 21:1. Wherever one places the timing of Isaiah 65:17-20, they must place the timing of Revelation 21:1 as well, otherwise we end up with nonsense in Revelation 21:1. The chronology would be..the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, plus the NHNE in Isaiah 65 were passed away, then a another new heavens and a new earth...IOW total nonsense and not what the text is plainly indicating. There are not 3 heavens and 3 earths in view in Revelation 21:1, there are only two. Those being the first heaven and the first earth, a new heaven and a new earth. That adds up to two, not three.

    the first heaven and the first earth, The NHNE of Isaiah 65, the NHNE of Revelation 21, that adds up to three of each, not two of each, if the NHNE in Isaiah 65 is not the same as the NHNE in Revelation 21:1.
    Well stated - Rev 21 does demand that there is only one previous Heaven and Earth, NOT 2 NHNEs.

    It is because of the NHNE that Premil and PostMil always argue.
    Most erroneously assume that the NHNE covers the whole earth IMMEDIATELY.
    However the OT prophecies INCLUDING Ezekiel and Daniel show a GRADUAL transformation.

    Yet based on this erroneous separation, PreMil has Isaiah being at the start of the MK and Rev 21 as after it. PostMil for all there errors note that there is but one, and so place it after the MK which then means we must be in the Millennium know.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In some ways we do know that it's just a surface transformation. Because the phrase NHNE is associated with the day of the Lord in Isaiah 64/Isaiah 65/2 Peter 3. So the transformation described in Ezekiel 47/48 and Zechariah 14 and parts of Revelation is this NHNE without the need for a whole new planet.

    The transformation in Rev 20 seems even more dramatic, but cannot contradict those verses in the OP which describe the foundations of the land lasting forever. We will never have a new planet. This one is here to stay.
    Of course this planet is not exchanged for a brand new one. It will be the same planet, it will be renewed and restored.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    In this verse there is the first heaven and the first earth, and that the text indicates both were passed away when John sees a NHNE. This obviously means there can't be another new heaven and new earth after the first heaven and first earth, but prior to the new heavens and new earth in verse 1. So what I'm I getting at here?

    Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    This has to be the exact same new heavens and a new earth, as in Revelation 21:1. Wherever one places the timing of Isaiah 65:17-20, they must place the timing of Revelation 21:1 as well, otherwise we end up with nonsense in Revelation 21:1. The chronology would be..the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, plus the NHNE in Isaiah 65 were passed away, then a another new heavens and a new earth...IOW total nonsense and not what the text is plainly indicating. There are not 3 heavens and 3 earths in view in Revelation 21:1, there are only two. Those being the first heaven and the first earth, a new heaven and a new earth. That adds up to two, not three.

    the first heaven and the first earth, The NHNE of Isaiah 65, the NHNE of Revelation 21, that adds up to three of each, not two of each, if the NHNE in Isaiah 65 is not the same as the NHNE in Revelation 21:1.
    The opening post is clear we are referring to new land and new sky,not a new planet. Yes there are 3.

    Currently we live in a pretty damaged world. Lifespans have dropped from nearly 1000yo before the flood to about 75yo. Oxygen levels are lower, air pressure is lower, the protective magnetic field is weaker.

    In Israel those mortal Jews are promised longer lifespans in the next age after the day of the Lord: Isaiah 65
    the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
    the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

    Every mountain and island will be removed, a river of life will renew the world. Mount Zion will be raised higher than the rest. We will witness a dramatic transformation of land and atmosphere.

    Then again at the end of the millennium, once again we will have a new land. The previous land surface will flee from the presence of God in such a dramatic manner, that there will be no more sea. The NJ will cover most of the Middle East.

    So yes, 3 land surfaces, now, millennial, and post-millenial.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    Yet based on this erroneous separation, PreMil has Isaiah being at the start of the MK and Rev 21 as after it. PostMil for all there errors note that there is but one, and so place it after the MK which then means we must be in the Millennium know.

    If the NHNE can only come after the thousand years, I agree, like you pointed out, the obvious conclusion would have to be that we are in the 1000 years right now. But if the NHNE can begin with the thousand years, we don't have to already be in the thousand years, the thousand years can then still be future in this case. Why do very few Premils ever want to consider Isaiah 60?

    Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
    12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

    The context of verse 11 apparently involves the NHNE(compare with Revelation 21:25-26), and in this very same context there is verse 12. How do Premils explain that if the NHNE can't occur until after the thousand years? Should verse 12 be taken to mean this will be the case throughout all eternity since the NHNE obviously involves all of eternity? Or should verse 12 be taken to mean that this involves only the first thousand years of eternity instead?

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The opening post is clear we are referring to new land and new sky,not a new planet. Yes there are 3.

    Currently we live in a pretty damaged world. Lifespans have dropped from nearly 1000yo before the flood to about 75yo. Oxygen levels are lower, air pressure is lower, the protective magnetic field is weaker.

    In Israel those mortal Jews are promised longer lifespans in the next age after the day of the Lord: Isaiah 65
    the one who dies at a hundred
    will be thought a mere child;
    the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

    Every mountain and island will be removed, a river of life will renew the world. Mount Zion will be raised higher than the rest. We will witness a dramatic transformation of land and atmosphere.

    Then again at the end of the millennium, once again we will have a new land. The previous land surface will flee from the presence of God in such a dramatic manner, that there will be no more sea. The NJ will cover most of the Middle East.

    So yes, 3 land surfaces, now, millennial, and post-millenial.
    Point out though, in Revelation 21:1 where the text makes mention of 3 of each. I don't see it in the text myself. That would be adding to the text then, things not explicit in the text.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If the NHNE can only come after the thousand years, I agree, like you pointed out, the obvious conclusion would have to be that we are in the 1000 years right now. But if the NHNE can begin with the thousand years, we don't have to already be in the thousand years, the thousand years can then still be future in this case. Why do very few Premils ever want to consider Isaiah 60?

    Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
    12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

    The context of verse 11 apparently involves the NHNE(compare with Revelation 21:25-26), and in this very same context there is verse 12. How do Premils explain that if the NHNE can't occur until after the thousand years? Should verse 12 be taken to mean this will be the case throughout all eternity since the NHNE obviously involves all of eternity? Or should verse 12 be taken to mean that this involves only the first thousand years of eternity instead?
    Well you have seen some of the posts of others claiming that the two NHNEs are incompatible, such as a mention of the Temple, and of the sea.

    I have tried to show how this is not incompatible and that Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel and Daniel ALL speak of a SINGLE kingdom which comes in.
    It starts when Jesus returns when He brings in everlasting righteousness.

    I think the issue is that we want the WHOLE WORLD to be completely cleansed in one moment.
    The PostMil have it when Jesus returns, and the PreMil have it after the GWToJ.
    I see it as a process, just as I am a new creation right now, yet I am also being transformed.

    I see the whole purpose of the River and Tree of Life is to bring about that transformation.
    We are to be workers in this new Eden.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well you have seen some of the posts of others claiming that the two NHNEs are incompatible, such as a mention of the Temple, and of the sea.

    I have tried to show how this is not incompatible and that Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel and Daniel ALL speak of a SINGLE kingdom which comes in.
    It starts when Jesus returns when He brings in everlasting righteousness.

    I think the issue is that we want the WHOLE WORLD to be completely cleansed in one moment.
    The PostMil have it when Jesus returns, and the PreMil have it after the GWToJ.
    I see it as a process, just as I am a new creation right now, yet I am also being transformed.

    I see the whole purpose of the River and Tree of Life is to bring about that transformation.
    We are to be workers in this new Eden.
    Me too. I also see it as a process. And why not? Did not God make a process out of His creating things in the beginning? Everything He did He could have done all those things instantaneously had He wanted to, but apparently He didn't want to though.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The verse which states the NJ comes down is DIRECTLY connected to the NHNE.
    The NJ is the centre of, and source of the NHNE. It is the place of Jesus' throne.
    Please provide this "verse" so I can decide for myself.

    Nope, NEITHER mention Jesus:
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*

    Zec 14:17* And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.*

    For BOTH Isaiah and Zechariah they had no separation of the godhead, and saw this as being God. It is you reading into it something which isn't there.
    I suppose the sky can be black or green depending on what you want it to be. If you want to substitute Jesus with the Godhead in Isaiah 66:23 and Zech 14:17, that your prerogative.

    Yes, sea is mentioned in rev 20:13. It is also mentioned elsewhere in Revelation.
    The question is what does the word "sea" mean in the CONTEXT.
    In this passage it is a place of dead souls.
    The SEA in this context inarguably is the literal waters of the earth. The dead in it denotes all that drowned and made the sea their resting place. To ensure there's no ambiguity, see how John contrasted the waters from the grave:

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    1. Notice, the sea delivers those in them.
    2. Death and hell (the place of dead souls according to you) also delivered the dead in them.

    As I have thought this through in detail then I disagree with your claim that it is an error.
    The simple answer about the NHNE is that it STARTS in NJ but will cover the whole earth.
    The NJ is specifically stated separately to the NHNE as it is but the key component, but NOT the whole.
    I like how Dan 2 puts it:
    Dan 2:35* Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.*

    Notice the change that occurs. It starts as a stone, but BECOMES a great mountain, which then fills the whole earth.

    Dan 2:44* And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,*
    Dan 2:45* just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”*

    And the explanation confirms this. There is a final beast kingdom which is destroyed and the kingdom God sets up will stand, never to be destroyed (even though Satan tries to after 1K years).
    The NJ descends and replaces the physical Jerusalem. But as the heaven and earth cover the whole mass of our universe, the same will be replaced or transformed at once when the NHNE comes. It is not like a tree or a kingdom that starts small and grows mighty. This assumption is the position of one who just wants to win an argument without minding whether their position align with scripture.

    I'm glad you quoted Dan 2:35 albeit, it unwittingly shows how far out your argument is on this one

    Notice what stands out *But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.*

    The STONE is JESUS. And his Kingdom (NJ) starts small, ie from the mid-east and grows to traverse the whole earth. The passage doesn't say the NHNE will GROW TO COVER THE EARTH! Rather when it comes, it will replace the entire old heaven and earth instantly. Obviously, you are adding 1 + 1 and getting 3 instead of 2 by conflating Christ' Kingdom (NJ) with the NHNE and falsely claiming that NHNE will grow.

    Nope. Fire is NEVER sent from the earth. Can you find a single passage where this happens?
    Further this phrase indicates its origin is from God.
    So no the comparison is not weak, and it is about triumphing over enemies bu God, and NOT Man.

    There is NOTHING which requires God to somehow to be limited to heaven in order for the fire to come from there.
    It is your demand which is actually very weak and limits God.
    The text says the fire came down from heaven. Rev 20:9. I see you skirted around my question as usual. Which is, if God is on earth surely he could have called the fire from earth?

    Is Hades literal? Not in a physical sense. And where is your physical death located? yet we note these two locations are also mentioned in this same verse:
    Rev 20:13* And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

    The sea simply is a symbol of where people have died who have been lost at sea.
    A lot of people have lost their lives at sea since the time of Noah. At the GTWJ, the sea (all the bodies of water on earth) will release those that are resting in the waters/sea. For example, Osama bin Laden will rise from the sea to receive judgment on that day. And the grave/Hades/Sheol will also do the same. This is plain as a-b-c in Rev 20:13. Notice in v-14 that after death/hell yields those in them, they, in turn, are cast into the lake of fire, but the sea was not? Why? It is because it will soon be wiped off from the earth when the NHNE is ushered in.

    Rev 12 there is indeed a sea mentioned. So not sure why you say it is absent.
    Perhaps this is a typo and you mean Rev 21:1
    I do indeed follow the sequence of events and they are quite simple, seals followed by trumpets followed by vials.
    However we are also given asides like Rev 17 which speaks about Mystery Babylon. This is to give further information.
    Rev 21 and 22 returns to the time when Jesus has returned and what happens - it gives more information about the 1000 years and what it would be like. The chronology was given in Rev 20. We have no information time wise AFTER he end of Rev 20.

    There is a PHYSICAL sea in Rev 21, however the question is what sea is being referred to in Rev 21 as it is not about PHYSICAL bodies of water.
    There are TWO other uses of sea in Revelation.
    One refers to where dead souls are - which as people still die DURING the MK, I think is NOT being referred to.
    The other usage is meaning kingdoms - and in particular Beast kingdoms. Now those kingdoms ALL have come to an end when Jesus comes to reign. So there is no sea, means there is no longer dominion of Man over Man, as there was, but rather the Dominion of Jesus.
    It was a typo indeed, I wanted to write Rev 21, not 12. Sorry about that.
    Sea, when used in a figurative sense in scripture, denotes people, as in a large multitude. Even though people make up a kingdom, a figurative sea should not be confused with a kingdom as a kingdom is made up of other stuff than people.

    That said, the sea in Rev 21:1 refers to the physical body of waters, not kingdoms because Rev 22 still refers to the 'nations'. Secondly, you can't claim that a physical sea exists in Rev 21 but deny it is not present in Rev 20:13. You can't have it both ways.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Well stated - Rev 21 does demand that there is only one previous Heaven and Earth, NOT 2 NHNEs.

    It is because of the NHNE that Premil and PostMil always argue.
    Most erroneously assume that the NHNE covers the whole earth IMMEDIATELY.
    However the OT prophecies INCLUDING Ezekiel and Daniel show a GRADUAL transformation.

    Yet based on this erroneous separation, PreMil has Isaiah being at the start of the MK and Rev 21 as after it. PostMil for all there errors note that there is but one, and so place it after the MK which then means we must be in the Millennium know.
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    This how Peter described the NHNE. Is there anything in the passage that suggests a gradual replacement of the old heaven and earth?

    1. Do you agree that the New Jerusalem (NJ) is different from the NHNE?
    2. NJ (Jesus Christ' righteous kingdom) will come down on the present day Jerusalem and GROW from there to cover the whole earth according to Dan 2:35.
    3. But there's nothing in scripture to support the erroneous claim that the NHNE will grow.
    4. Rather, when the NHNE is ushered in, it will replace or transform the WHOLE current heaven and earth at once.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Me too. I also see it as a process. And why not? Did not God make a process out of His creating things in the beginning? Everything He did He could have done all those things instantaneously had He wanted to, but apparently He didn't want to though.
    It will actually help if you follow what the scripture says than speculate on how God will do something.

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