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Thread: New Heaven New Earth

  1. #61
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    This how Peter described the NHNE. Is there anything in the passage that suggests a gradual replacement of the old heaven and earth?

    1. Do you agree that the New Jerusalem (NJ) is different from the NHNE?
    2. NJ (Jesus Christ' righteous kingdom) will come down on the present day Jerusalem and GROW from there to cover the whole earth according to Dan 2:35.
    3. But there's nothing in scripture to support the erroneous claim that the NHNE will grow.
    4. Rather, when the NHNE is ushered in, it will replace or transform the WHOLE current heaven and earth at once.


    Perhaps you view things differently, but when I look at Revelation 21-22, two things I notice are these. There is an inside of the NJ and there is an outside of the NJ, and that both exist in the NHNE. And since you brought up Dan 2:35, let's look at that a little closer.

    Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


    This part....became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth....obviously can't get fulfilled until this part is fulfilled first...Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them


    When is this latter part fulfilled? At the 2nd coming would be my guess. And if so, that places this part...became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth...to be meaning post the 2nd coming.

    The NJ is not the whole earth though. To me this sounds like a process...became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. So IMO, and opinions can be wrong of course, as well as be right also, this process of filling the whole earth is being fulfilled during the first thousand years of the NHNE.

  2. #62
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It will actually help if you follow what the scripture says than speculate on how God will do something.
    Here's what I think then. If the NHNE can only occur after the 1000 years, that means a position such as Amil has to be the correct position then. It makes zero sense to conclude, that once Christ returns, that at the time, righteousness is not dwelling in the earth.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    One can't divorce these from one another. Post the 2nd coming there cannot be a time and place, wherein dwelleth righteousness, without it also involving the NHNE.

    The question is, once Christ returns and takes total control of this planet, will or will not, at that time, the following being the case...wherein dwelleth righteousness? If the answer is yes then one must conclude the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. If the answer is no, then what is the point of Christ returning and taking over the entire planet, if righteousness is not even dwelling on the planet at the time? Do you think Christ would be governing the planet in unrighteousness then?

  3. #63
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Here's what I think then. If the NHNE can only occur after the 1000 years, that means a position such as Amil has to be the correct position then. It makes zero sense to conclude, that once Christ returns, that at the time, righteousness is not dwelling in the earth.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    This is true. Christ is coming to restore all things back to what it was at the foundation of the world. That means all is then very good again and God can tabernacle with us like before. A NHNE where only righteousness dwells..... unrighteousness has no place in a restored EDEN ( NHNE ).


    We inherit all this at Christs coming...,
    Matt 25

    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory,
    and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


    Isiah 65
    17
    “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  4. #64
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Point out though, in Revelation 21:1 where the text makes mention of 3 of each. I don't see it in the text myself. That would be adding to the text then, things not explicit in the text.
    I don't see the need for one verse to list information found only in other verses. 2 Peter 3 describes new land at the second coming, Rev 20 describes new land at the end of the millennium. Simple as that.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Here's what I think then. If the NHNE can only occur after the 1000 years, that means a position such as Amil has to be the correct position then. It makes zero sense to conclude, that once Christ returns, that at the time, righteousness is not dwelling in the earth.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    One can't divorce these from one another. Post the 2nd coming there cannot be a time and place, wherein dwelleth righteousness, without it also involving the NHNE.

    The question is, once Christ returns and takes total control of this planet, will or will not, at that time, the following being the case...wherein dwelleth righteousness? If the answer is yes then one must conclude the NHNE begin with the 2nd coming. If the answer is no, then what is the point of Christ returning and taking over the entire planet, if righteousness is not even dwelling on the planet at the time? Do you think Christ would be governing the planet in unrighteousness then?
    The fact that sin and death will still exist in the millennial age support my position that the NHNE will come in AFTER the present earth is completely purged of all that offends, ie at the judgment Throne (Rev 20:11-15). Jesus has lived with mankind who is full of sin in the first advent, and he will do so again in the millennial age. But the Godhead CANNOT with sin around! That's why he comes after the GWTJ when the NHNE comes in.

    At that time, sin, death, etc will be burning in the lake of fire.

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    In Isaiah 65 we are told that despite the prevailing longevity in the MK, death will still occur. Now, if the NHNE starts at the same time as the MK and has death in it, then John must have lied above when he said he saw the NHNE and there is no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. I don't know if you've been following my exchanges with FHG? I also pointed out that in Rev 20:13 the sea (all bodies of water on earth) is still present and yielded the souls (e.g. Osama bin Laden) and everyone else since the flood in Noah's time to face judgment.

    However, when this current earth is restored or replaced (however God wants to do it) with the NHNE (Rev 21:1), the sea is no more.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I don't see the need for one verse to list information found only in other verses. 2 Peter 3 describes new land at the second coming, Rev 20 describes new land at the end of the millennium. Simple as that.
    So it's your learned opinion that God will burn and replace the earth several times? Can you support this with scripture?

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please provide this "verse" so I can decide for myself.
    Sure:
    Rev 21:1* Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.*
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    See how the one - the NHNE happens and then he sees the NJ.

    I suppose the sky can be black or green depending on what you want it to be. If you want to substitute Jesus with the Godhead in Isaiah 66:23 and Zech 14:17, that your prerogative.
    The one performing a substitution is yourself.
    The word is used as Lord. Throughout the OT this word is used for God the Father, but can also be understood to mean the Godhead. It is NEVER used solely for Jesus in the OT. Therefore you are substituting the STANDARD meaning of the word found throughout with a limited version.

    The SEA in this context inarguably is the literal waters of the earth. The dead in it denotes all that drowned and made the sea their resting place. To ensure there's no ambiguity, see how John contrasted the waters from the grave:

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    1. Notice, the sea delivers those in them.
    2. Death and hell (the place of dead souls according to you) also delivered the dead in them.
    Actually in CONTEXT the sea is SYMBOLIC of where the dead are. Hades is NOT a PHYSICAL place and nor is Death. Why you claim only one of these three locations is a PHYSICAL place and the other two aren't is illogical.
    Hades literally means a hole in the ground.
    There is no ambiguity is true, for BOTH Hades and the Sea in this verse are NOT PHYSICAL places being referred to but the connection each has with the dead.

    The NJ descends and replaces the physical Jerusalem. But as the heaven and earth cover the whole mass of our universe, the same will be replaced or transformed at once when the NHNE comes. It is not like a tree or a kingdom that starts small and grows mighty. This assumption is the position of one who just wants to win an argument without minding whether their position align with scripture.
    Nope. Nothing says it is ALL at one moment. Rather it as the example I gave.

    I'm glad you quoted Dan 2:35 albeit, it unwittingly shows how far out your argument is on this one
    Notice what stands out *But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.*

    The STONE is JESUS. And his Kingdom (NJ) starts small, ie from the mid-east and grows to traverse the whole earth. The passage doesn't say the NHNE will GROW TO COVER THE EARTH! Rather when it comes, it will replace the entire old heaven and earth instantly. Obviously, you are adding 1 + 1 and getting 3 instead of 2 by conflating Christ' Kingdom (NJ) with the NHNE and falsely claiming that NHNE will grow.
    It shows how correct I am.
    Here we AGREE, for His kingdom does grow to cover the whole earth. It is NOT an immediate filling of the whole world CONTRARY to your point above.
    What is the NHNE? It is His Kingdom. This is where you are getting things completely wrong.
    2Pe 3:13* But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    You see the NHNE is where He reigns. Everywhere else is NOT.

    The text says the fire came down from heaven. Rev 20:9. I see you skirted around my question as usual. Which is, if God is on earth surely he could have called the fire from earth?
    I have skirted nothing. I have highlighted that there isn't a SINGLE scripture where fire comes from the earth.
    When Elijah prayed could the fire just have come from the earth? Of course, yet the phrase speaks of it being heaven meaning this is NOT a fire made by Man.
    There is NOTHING in this phrase which requires God to ONLY be in Heaven.

    A lot of people have lost their lives at sea since the time of Noah. At the GTWJ, the sea (all the bodies of water on earth) will release those that are resting in the waters/sea. For example, Osama bin Laden will rise from the sea to receive judgment on that day. And the grave/Hades/Sheol will also do the same. This is plain as a-b-c in Rev 20:13. Notice in v-14 that after death/hell yields those in them, they, in turn, are cast into the lake of fire, but the sea was not? Why? It is because it will soon be wiped off from the earth when the NHNE is ushered in.
    Nope I don't think Osama bin Laden will rise from the sea - do you think this because you think his ashes have been scattered on it?
    Our PHYSICAL selves are not somehow contained WITHIN these locations. It is very clearly a picture of those who are DEAD and is not about an ACTUAL location.

    It was a typo indeed, I wanted to write Rev 21, not 12. Sorry about that.
    Sea, when used in a figurative sense in scripture, denotes people, as in a large multitude. Even though people make up a kingdom, a figurative sea should not be confused with a kingdom as a kingdom is made up of other stuff than people.
    Incorrect. Sea also denotes kingdoms.
    The Beast rises up out of the sea is a simple example.
    The four beasts in Dan 7 give a similar picture.

    That said, the sea in Rev 21:1 refers to the physical body of waters, not kingdoms because Rev 22 still refers to the 'nations'. Secondly, you can't claim that a physical sea exists in Rev 21 but deny it is not present in Rev 20:13. You can't have it both ways.
    Nope, Rev 21 speaks of nations. I agree that Rev 22 speaks of nations, because it talks about the kings of those nations.
    A physical sea is present in Rev 20:13, but the PHYSICAL sea is NOT being referenced.
    Rev 21 speaks of a physical temple, which isn't there, yet there IS another PHYSICAL temple which is there.
    This is because they are referencing DIFFERENT temples.
    So yes Revelation does have it multiple ways. We need to accept what Revelation does, rather than trying to ignore what it is saying.

  8. #68
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The fact that sin and death will still exist in the millennial age support my position that the NHNE will come in AFTER the present earth is completely purged of all that offends, ie at the judgment Throne (Rev 20:11-15). Jesus has lived with mankind who is full of sin in the first advent, and he will do so again in the millennial age. But the Godhead CANNOT with sin around! That's why he comes after the GWTJ when the NHNE comes in.
    Incorrect claim. In the NJ there is no sin - therefore it is NOT an issue.

    At that time, sin, death, etc will be burning in the lake of fire.

    Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    This is quoting Isaiah 65:
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

    It is referencing the NJ and NOT the entire world.

    In Isaiah 65 we are told that despite the prevailing longevity in the MK, death will still occur. Now, if the NHNE starts at the same time as the MK and has death in it, then John must have lied above when he said he saw the NHNE and there is no more death, sorrow, crying, etc. I don't know if you've been following my exchanges with FHG? I also pointed out that in Rev 20:13 the sea (all bodies of water on earth) is still present and yielded the souls (e.g. Osama bin Laden) and everyone else since the flood in Noah's time to face judgment.

    However, when this current earth is restored or replaced (however God wants to do it) with the NHNE (Rev 21:1), the sea is no more.
    No it doesn't mean John lied. It simply means you aren't following what John is saying.
    He did NOT say in the entire world there is no more death, he spoke ONLY of the NJ.
    This is clear as we read this:
    Rev 22:14* Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.*
    Rev 22:15* Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.*

    Notice that OUTSIDE the NJ are sinners, which is clearly DURING the time of the NHNE.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So it's your learned opinion that God will burn and replace the earth several times? Can you support this with scripture?
    2 Peter 3 says the land will be "laid bare". Rocks and soil will be burnt, but this is not a complete destruction. That occurs in normal warfare.

    And the attacking armies are destroyed with fire in Rev 20, not the land. The land just flees. In both cases the land is renewed, because scripture is clear the foundations of the land remain forever.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    2 Peter 3 says the land will be "laid bare". Rocks and soil will be burnt, but this is not a complete destruction. That occurs in normal warfare.

    And the attacking armies are destroyed with fire in Rev 20, not the land. The land just flees. In both cases the land is renewed, because scripture is clear the foundations of the land remain forever.
    So this is one time. Are you saying it happens again?

    Also note it isn't just a new earth but also a new heavens - so what happens in the heavens each time?

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So this is one time. Are you saying it happens again?

    Also note it isn't just a new earth but also a new heavens - so what happens in the heavens each time?
    The second coming often depicts the sky rolling away. I expect a lot of dust possibly from nuclear effects and meteorites (stars feeling to earth). Also with the River of life, vegetation should flourish creating more oxygen. So I'm saying changes to the look out the sky and atmospheric content.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The second coming often depicts the sky rolling away. I expect a lot of dust possibly from nuclear effects and meteorites (stars feeling to earth). Also with the River of life, vegetation should flourish creating more oxygen. So I'm saying changes to the look out the sky and atmospheric content.
    The River of life flows out of Jerusalem from the NHNE as stated in BOTH Isaiah and Revelation.
    I agree that there is a lot which happens at the Second Coming and there is an NHNE after that for certain.
    What you don't have is anything like this of your supposed SECOND NHNE after the MK.
    The ONLY event of note is that fire comes out of heaven to destroy Satan's army.
    There is NO earthquake, NO sky being rolled up, NO stars falling from the sky etc. In fact NOTHING which suggests there is an NHNE at that time.

    The SOLE reason to claim the NHNE is after the MK is due to the erroneous idea that the NHNE STARTS with everything pristine.
    It doesn't, you may argue the Heavens are pristine and the NJ is pristine, but that is it.

  13. #73
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The SOLE reason to claim the NHNE is after the MK is due to the erroneous idea that the NHNE STARTS with everything pristine.
    That's the way it started in the beginning, and then God prepared a garden for us on it.
    Why would God prepare a NHNE and still have the ungodly on it?


    Is 65 and Rev 21

    “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  14. #74
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The River of life flows out of Jerusalem from the NHNE as stated in BOTH Isaiah and Revelation.
    I agree that there is a lot which happens at the Second Coming and there is an NHNE after that for certain.
    What you don't have is anything like this of your supposed SECOND NHNE after the MK.
    The ONLY event of note is that fire comes out of heaven to destroy Satan's army.
    There is NO earthquake, NO sky being rolled up, NO stars falling from the sky etc. In fact NOTHING which suggests there is an NHNE at that time.

    The SOLE reason to claim the NHNE is after the MK is due to the erroneous idea that the NHNE STARTS with everything pristine.
    It doesn't, you may argue the Heavens are pristine and the NJ is pristine, but that is it.
    Rev 20 mentions a NHNE. That's why I believe there's another one then.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    That's the way it started in the beginning, and then God prepared a garden for us on it.
    Why would God prepare a NHNE and still have the ungodly on it?
    Is 65 and Rev 21
    “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
    Why is a good question.
    Why doesn't God simply wipe sinful man out completely?
    The answer is because He is in the business of restoring and transforming.
    That which is wrong will be made right.
    This doesn't happen overnight.
    The ungodly are allowed to live UNTIL the final chance is gone.
    This is true for us and is true for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Rev 20 mentions a NHNE. That's why I believe there's another one then.
    Where does Rev 20 mention a NHNE?
    It only mentions a period of reigning for a thousand years.

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