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Thread: New Heaven New Earth

  1. #151
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Yes. The time to come to him in faith will end at his second coming.

    Rev 22
    12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
    13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
    14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

    15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
    Very true, whether amill or premill one's belief should not accommodate any salvation or second chances after the second coming.

  2. #152
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There IS a temple in Rev 22 - it is called the throne room of God. That IS the temple as attested too throughout scripture INCLUDING Revelation:
    Rev 7:15* “Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

    Rev 11:19* Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

    Rev 14:15* And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.”

    And these are just the obvious ones. You can cross correlate other things like the altar which is mentioned. Then you can read Hebrews.

    All rivers flow into the sea. Are you saying the river goes in a loop?


    A lot of PEOPLE think the dimensions are huge, however I put a lot of detail on this.
    We don't actually know the size of the NJ.
    Various assumptions have been made, yet when you compare them with other descriptions given then we realise something is different IF we take the supposed 1500 miles high approach.
    Rev 21:16
    the city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.

    stadion - about 185 metres 185 x 12000 = 2220 km long and wide (1380 miles long, 1380 miles wide). that is very large will cover much of the region of Israel.

    I don't see a problem with the river being a loop, or this supernatural river could just soak into the earth, being continually replenished by God himself. Or possibly there is still an ocean into which the river runs, "the sea" was often a reference to the Meditteranean. Whatever the view, the sea exists in Ezekiel, not in Revelation 21/22

    Regarding you support verses for an actual temple in Revelation, you refer to an actual temple mentioned in second coming context in Revelation 7 and 11. Yet Rev 21:22 states: I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. Once again showing the two eras are different, mutually exclusive. The verses you quote to support your case, support my case that there is a temple at the second coming, but not later.

    I am sure you will have answers, but the view that the NJ is simply a different era to the millenial age requires no explanation.

  3. #153
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    correct and not correct, the first verse refers to the "universe" or all of existence, also for example the wise men who visited Jesus understood the movements in the heavens and the "heavens" are what is meant the Stones addition says Heavens in the first verse and even KJV says heavens at least 133 times so heaven as in firmament that God called "Heaven" isn't the only space that is not matter they understood.

    the firmament is actually matter of the earth.





    but in reference to the big change

    Zec 14:1* Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.*
    Zec 14:2* For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.*
    Zec 14:3* Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.*
    Zec 14:4* And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.*


    the two that stood and told the disciples that Jesus would return to this spot, after He ascended, were standing on the Mount of Olives.

    there is a common school of thought that there is a nuke arsenal under the Mount of Olives and when the Lord executes what is written in the posted text surly the nuke responses of hostile nations will happen. don't think that some one is going to push a button, the response will be automatic because there is no chance of responding fast enough to hopefully save one's self. so as soon as one goes they will all go. there are other places in OT prophets that speak of this same event and have descriptions of what will happen and its the same as any world wide nuke response.
    Its possible that there will be a lot of nukes around on the day of the Lord, I think so, some verses seem to hint at it. But there is certainty that there will be a great earthquake, which is the more certain explanation.

  4. #154
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Rev 21:16
    the city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long.

    stadion - about 185 metres 185 x 12000 = 2220 km long and wide (1380 miles long, 1380 miles wide). that is very large will cover much of the region of Israel.

    I don't see a problem with the river being a loop, or this supernatural river could just soak into the earth, being continually replenished by God himself. Or possibly there is still an ocean into which the river runs, "the sea" was often a reference to the Meditteranean. Whatever the view, the sea exists in Ezekiel, not in Revelation 21/22
    I already spelled this out in another thread.
    Let's break up your mistakes into manageable parts.

    1. The city is laid out like a square - correct.
    2. First error about the size. Let's look at the scripture:
    Rev 21:16* The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
    In this verse the TOTAL is 12,000. It is NOT 12,000 long that was measured. SO the length is 12,000 divided by 4 = 3,000.
    3. Second error about the size:
    Rev 21:15* And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
    How big is this rod? How is it used?
    When you read Ezekiel you find that translators have added the word cubit in some translations yet in the KJV we read this:
    Eze 48:8* And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.

    Yet this is based on this:
    Eze 40:3* And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

    So if a measuring reed is used then it makes sense to call it reeds.
    Eze 40:5* And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

    Yet what is that length?
    How long is the cubit?
    It mentions the cubit as being a cubit and a hand's breath - this is what some may call a long cubit or around 21 inches, whereas a standard cubit is 18 inches.
    So the reed is 6 x 21 inches = 126 inches long or 3.2 metres.

    Now is the rod the same as that in Revelation?
    If it is then the total size is 38.4 square kilometers or around 9 kilometres to one side.

    Now we come to the question of stadia.
    How is it measured?
    This is where it gets technical:
    2.8 How to measure distances by the stadia method
    The stadia method is rapid and accurate for measuring long distances, but to apply this method, you need to get expensive surveying equipment and learn how to use it. Therefore, only a brief description of the method is given here so that you can understand its basic principles.
    1. The equipment used with this method includes a highly technical sighting device called a telescope. To use it, you must sight through two crossed hairs; there are also two extra horizontal hairs called stadia hairs. Most surveyor's levels (see Section 5.8) have these stadia hairs at an equal distance above and below the horizontal cross-hair.
    2. To measure a distance, you will also need a levelling staff which is clearly graduated in centimetres (see Section 5.0).
    3. Set up the surveyor's level at the point from which you will measure the distance. Signal to your assistant to place the levelling staff vertically at the next point of the line. The distance between you and the staff may be several hundred metres.
    4. Look through the telescope and read the graduations (in metres) on the levelling staff that line up with the upper stadia hair and the lower stadia hair. Note these measurements down in your field-book.
    5. Subtract the smaller reading from the larger reading. This represents the interval between the two hairs, called the stadia interval.
    6. To find the distance (in metres), multiply the stadia interval by a fixed value called the stadia factor. It is given for each telescope, but on most instruments this factor equals 100.
    Note: if you are working on sloping ground, you must correct this figure to find the true horizontal distance (see Section 4.0).

    Now I got this from here
    Basically the modern standard is use a rod (mentioned in Rev 11) have a small set of measurements on it (ie centimetres or inches) look through the stadia hairs and then calculate the value.
    The figure you have for 185 is just one potential value - which is 660 feet. This is from a particular Stadium.
    Note this

    So we don't actually know what this measurement is for certain.
    Ezekiel has 4,500 per side compared to Rev 22 having 3,000.
    This suggest a ratio difference between the units of measure of 1.5

    In short the NJ will NOT cover most of Israel.

    Your ideas for the river mean you have things only operating if on a supernatural level and don't recognise that God MADE the natural as the way He wants things to be.

    Regarding you support verses for an actual temple in Revelation, you refer to an actual temple mentioned in second coming context in Revelation 7 and 11. Yet Rev 21:22 states: I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. Once again showing the two eras are different, mutually exclusive. The verses you quote to support your case, support my case that there is a temple at the second coming, but not later.

    I am sure you will have answers, but the view that the NJ is simply a different era to the millenial age requires no explanation.
    There is NOTHING mutually exclusive about Rev 21 or 22.
    The FACT is the TEMPLE in Revelation speaks of TWO different temples.
    In Rev 11 it is Man's temple. However in other verses we see ANOTHER temple, which IS God's throne room.
    We are SPECIFICALLY told that God's throne room is on earth in Rev 22. This means the temple which was in heaven is NOW on the earth.
    Therefore the phrase "I saw no temple" is NOT referring to God's temple, but the OTHER aforementioned temple found in Rev 11.

    This same multiple use of the word sea, helps to clarify what is meant.

  5. #155
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Very true, whether amill or premill one's belief should not accommodate any salvation or second chances after the second coming.
    Wrong! Rev 22 has people able to wash their robes AFTER the NJ has come down.
    What do you understand will happen to everyone who lives DURING the Millennium?
    Are they condemned to live one K and then go to eternal death?
    Sorry, but this is woolly thinking.
    It is ONLY AFTER the Final Judgement that this is no longer possible.

  6. #156
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Wrong! Rev 22 has people able to wash their robes AFTER the NJ has come down.
    What do you understand will happen to everyone who lives DURING the Millennium?
    Are they condemned to live one K and then go to eternal death?
    Sorry, but this is woolly thinking.
    It is ONLY AFTER the Final Judgement that this is no longer possible.
    Haha I sometimes enjoy your contrary way of expressing yourself. But am I wrong? Salvation is through faith, and faith is the certainty of things unseen. Unseen.

    You misunderstand Rev 22:14, this refers to those who wash their robes in this age, who then have the right to enter the NJ in the next age.

  7. #157
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Haha I sometimes enjoy your contrary way of expressing yourself. But am I wrong? Salvation is through faith, and faith is the certainty of things unseen. Unseen.
    I see you have the typical wrong idea about faith.
    Did Jesus do miracles? Yes.
    Did the apostles see Him do those miracles? Yes.
    Did it still require faith for any NEW miracles? Yes.
    Faith is NOT about what is unseen, but about CERTAINTY in God:
    Heb 11:1* Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Faith is NOT about not seeing things, but about KNOWING things which are yet to be seen.

    You misunderstand Rev 22:14, this refers to those who wash their robes in this age, who then have the right to enter the NJ in the next age.
    Nope, Rev 22:15 is NOT about this age. NOBODY is outside the city of the NJ at the moment. NOBODY can enter the gates at this moment. The tree of life is STILL in heaven at this moment.
    You seem to be buying into Marty's symbolism all of a sudden, but ONLY for these verses and not the preceding ones. That is known as being inconsistent.

  8. #158
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I see you have the typical wrong idea about faith.
    Did Jesus do miracles? Yes.
    Did the apostles see Him do those miracles? Yes.
    Did it still require faith for any NEW miracles? Yes.
    Faith is NOT about what is unseen, but about CERTAINTY in God:
    Heb 11:1* Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    Faith is NOT about not seeing things, but about KNOWING things which are yet to be seen.
    You make my point for me:
    "knowing things which are yet to be seen"

    Everyone in the next age will know exactly who Jesus is, and why he was crucified. How then can they be saved through faith in Jesus, if faith is in things yet to be seen?



    Nope, Rev 22:15 is NOT about this age. NOBODY is outside the city of the NJ at the moment. NOBODY can enter the gates at this moment. The tree of life is STILL in heaven at this moment.
    You seem to be buying into Marty's symbolism all of a sudden, but ONLY for these verses and not the preceding ones. That is known as being inconsistent.
    Yes we are actually outside the city, we are not inside. The Greek word "exo" doesn't mean standing next to the walls, outside the walls. The saved have the right to enter it in future. The evil do not. You may think my view is impossible from the text. You are wrong in that, it is easy to see my view in the text. By claiming others views as impossible, when the possibility exists, may make you appear a little dogmatic.

  9. #159
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You make my point for me:
    "knowing things which are yet to be seen"

    Everyone in the next age will know exactly who Jesus is, and why he was crucified. How then can they be saved through faith in Jesus, if faith is in things yet to be seen?
    It does NOT matter what you think you know. The disciples KNEW who Jesus was - yet still they needed faith, and often lacked it.
    Faith is about CERTAINTY, not about not seeing it. What is NOT seen is NOT about Jesus, but about something which has NOT YET happened - this is why it is unseen.

    Yes we are actually outside the city, we are not inside. The Greek word "exo" doesn't mean standing next to the walls, outside the walls. The saved have the right to enter it in future. The evil do not. You may think my view is impossible from the text. You are wrong in that, it is easy to see my view in the text. By claiming others views as impossible, when the possibility exists, may make you appear a little dogmatic.
    I am NOT outside any city. Are you not the Bride awaiting your moment?
    Can you go into the Bride and come out again?
    Sorry, but this is simple rubbish AJ would know it as such.

    Either the saved ARE in it, or they are NOT, there is NO future aspect to it. However in this picture people can go in and out.
    Your view is simply inconsistent and out of context as well as not fitting what is stated.
    Is it possible? Not really when you consider it for a few moments.
    You are trying to make it about a certainty now, but this is about what will be.

  10. #160
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It does NOT matter what you think you know. The disciples KNEW who Jesus was - yet still they needed faith, and often lacked it.
    Faith is about CERTAINTY, not about not seeing it. What is NOT seen is NOT about Jesus, but about something which has NOT YET happened - this is why it is unseen.


    I am NOT outside any city. Are you not the Bride awaiting your moment?
    Can you go into the Bride and come out again?
    Sorry, but this is simple rubbish AJ would know it as such.

    Either the saved ARE in it, or they are NOT, there is NO future aspect to it. However in this picture people can go in and out.
    Your view is simply inconsistent and out of context as well as not fitting what is stated.
    Is it possible? Not really when you consider it for a few moments.
    You are trying to make it about a certainty now, but this is about what will be.
    You sound very dogmatic. Let me quote the scripture:

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

    Those who currently "do his commandments" have the right to enter the NJ. Simple as that. Is there a future aspect? Yes the obedient now have the right to enter in the future. The disobedient are excluded. You don't win points by being dogmatic.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You sound very dogmatic. Let me quote the scripture:

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

    Those who currently "do his commandments" have the right to enter the NJ. Simple as that. Is there a future aspect? Yes the obedient now have the right to enter in the future. The disobedient are excluded. You don't win points by being dogmatic.
    Who is being dogmatic?
    Who is being spoken to? It is NOT us today. That is reading into it what is NOT shown in the CONTEXT.
    The CONTEXT is where is the Tree of Life?

  12. #162
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Who is being dogmatic?
    Who is being spoken to? It is NOT us today. That is reading into it what is NOT shown in the CONTEXT.
    The CONTEXT is where is the Tree of Life?
    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    The NJ is the destiny of people who live and are obedient in this age. This is what the text is saying, but even if you disagree that is what the text means, at least acknowledge the possibility

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    The NJ is the destiny of people who live and are obedient in this age. This is what the text is saying, but even if you disagree that is what the text means, at least acknowledge the possibility
    I agree that the NJ is indeed the destiny of those who live today. However to treat this as simple symbolism is wrong.
    The NJ is presented in 21 and 22 as a reality.

    Now you have a further problem because you make verse 15 as though that is the final fate, which is what you are doing with verse 14.
    Yet the reality presented in this passage is that there are those outside who will enter inside.

    DURING the Millennium they have to follow His commands or reject them.
    Otherwise you make Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel as speaking pointless nonsense.

  14. #164
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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree that the NJ is indeed the destiny of those who live today. However to treat this as simple symbolism is wrong.
    The NJ is presented in 21 and 22 as a reality.

    Now you have a further problem because you make verse 15 as though that is the final fate, which is what you are doing with verse 14.
    Yet the reality presented in this passage is that there are those outside who will enter inside.

    DURING the Millennium they have to follow His commands or reject them.
    Otherwise you make Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel as speaking pointless nonsense.
    What? I never said the NJ is a symbol. It is a real city that can be entered from outside the city.

    And i agree that obedience is required during the millennium, but this is a separate period to the NJ, and you are yet to illustrate otherwise.

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    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    What? I never said the NJ is a symbol. It is a real city that can be entered from outside the city.
    And i agree that obedience is required during the millennium, but this is a separate period to the NJ, and you are yet to illustrate otherwise.
    Actually when is the city there for people to either be inside or outside it?
    It is NOT Yet, for the Bride is NOT YET ready and has NOT descended.
    Rather the problem is for you to demonstrate this can ONLY be about now and not the future city.
    Do you wash your robes?

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