Page 15 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678910111213141516 LastLast
Results 211 to 225 of 228

Thread: New Heaven New Earth

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,149
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Now that you mentioned it, doesn't Dan 7:14 seal it for Jesus? Who else is "given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."?
    It is probably the closest reference to Jesus in the OT and I think the reason he often used that title:
    Mat 9:6* But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.”
    79 verses in the gospels.

    If you agree that Revelation is not in chronology, why then would you lob everything in Rev 21 and 22 into once continuous chronology? Doesn't it raise questions about your position and objectivity? How do you explain Rev 20, 21 and 22? Do you see them occurring in sequential order or not?

    I reckon it's imperative that we sort this out otherwise we'll be going round in circles. For what it's worth, my position is that Rev 21 & 22 is a mismatch of events that are neither concurrent nor fit the same timescale - some are separated by 1000 years.
    I haven't said all Revelation is not in chronology. I have in fact often stated that we are given clear statements of chronology such as the seals being given in order, the trumpets likewise and the vials too. It is natural to assume a chronology UNLESS there is something which shows a change whihc then allows you to consider is it further information about something already revealed or about to be revealed.
    So Rev 7 has information BEFORE the GT and the picture AFTER the GT.
    Rev 21 and 22 has the statement about the NJ DIRECTLY connected with the NHNE. Therefore that is how we should understand it. What are you told about the NHNE beyond what is said abut the NJ?
    Rev 20 is given in a chronological fashion. This is again very clear because time words are used.
    There are within this though statements which are about outside of that time but which give information.
    Rev 21 and 22 then tells us the timing - it is when the NJ descends from heaven - which allows us to put it into the other chronology.
    Each part MUST be read in CONTEXT and any connectors noted and accepted.
    All of Rev 21 and 22 is about the NJ in the NHNE and about what happens in that time period.

    If "context" is the only guide and determinant, then we should also accept that the GWTJ in Rev 20 actually occurs before the events of Rev 21 & 22! How do you explain this? Further, does the NHNE cover the whole earth when the MK starts or is it only NJ? You need to consider this seriously because scripture never said it starts from Jerusalem and spreads out. But when it comes, it will cover the whole of heaven and earth.
    Nope, CONTEXT does NOT demand that. CONTEXT says, what is stated in each portion and how is each portion stated to relate to another.
    Does Rev 21 state the NHNE covers the whole earth at the start? No. This is an assumption which may or may not be correct. Within Rev 21 we read about nations existing OUTSIDE the NJ. It mentions the unclean outside who can't gain entry.
    Isiah 65 using the same language also points to a world that is being renewed. Ezekiel 47 clarifies further.
    No one vision gives us everything. However it does tell us something about what ever it is focusing on.
    Actually where is God's kingdom on earth? Where is He dwelling with man? This is Jerusalem.
    Daniel 2 shows the same idea. It will eventually cover the whole earth, and then Satan is released to deceive one last time.

  2. #212
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So am I (and everybody else) to understand that the verses in Rev 21 and 22 which speak of the NJ ARE occurring DURING the MK, and that you put it ALL separate to the NHNE?
    Apart from you and perhaps a couple of others, I haven't seen anyone who believes what you claim. You can have an NHNE starting with the MK without dealing aspects of Rev 20: 11 & 13

    No prophecy is general in nature. I am waiting for a single one which is. I have read all your posts (I think) and none of those were general.
    What's the point of asking for "a single one" since you have rejected the ones I gave you.

    I agree that the NHNE is the renewed H&E. It is NOT the same as the NJ is also agreed. However WHEN does God start renewing the H&E?
    We are told in Isaiah 65 that this is at the time when God comes and renews Jerusalem and the wolf and lamb lie down together. Ezekiel 47 speaks of the same thing.
    I do NOT conflate, I simply note that he NHNE starts WITH the NJ coming down. The NJ is the place from where the renewing comes. The Tree of Life and the River of Life flowing out to bring healing for the nations and life to the land.
    So no NJ in the NHNE?
    The emboldened summarizes why you are so far out in your understanding. As heaven and earth covers everywhere, it is the same way the NHNE which also will cover the whole. Your belief that it starts from NJ tells me all I need to know - you got this wrong big time.

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,149
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Apart from you and perhaps a couple of others, I haven't seen anyone who believes what you claim. You can have an NHNE starting with the MK without dealing aspects of Rev 20: 11 & 13
    EVERYONE agrees that the NJ and the NHNE in rev 21 and 22 are in the SAME time period.
    Amil says it happens after Jesus returns, and after having studied their scriptural reasons I accept most of what they put about the NHNE starting when Jesus returns.
    It is not just me saying this.
    I have FULLt dealt with Rev 20:11 and 13. I have shown you the Greek which explicitly shows the phrase about the H&E passing away was NOT happening at that moment but at a time in the past.

    What's the point of asking for "a single one" since you have rejected the ones I gave you.
    So that you finally produce one which actually supports your view.
    All the ones I have rejected I have rejected with reasons why, which you have not dealt with or shown to be incorrect reasoning.

    The emboldened summarizes why you are so far out in your understanding. As heaven and earth covers everywhere, it is the same way the NHNE which also will cover the whole. Your belief that it starts from NJ tells me all I need to know - you got this wrong big time.
    Nope. There is an NHNE just as your and I become New Creations the MOMENT we are born again.
    However even though we are ENTIRELY New, yet we also need to be transformed.
    It is the SAME usage of language for the NHNE.
    It is NEW, there is a complete CHANGE for the ENTIRE World. Jesus has won the victory and has come to earth. The powers that used to be are gone. The heaven and the earth are therefore ENTIRELY new. However they also need renewing. The River of Life is flowing out and brings transformation. The leaves bring healing for the nations - which still exist for a time.
    It is NOT my belief that is at odds with scripture. It is just your trying to make it a certain way without accepting what is stated.

  4. #214
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,536

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes I agree that they would have had a different way of looking at the phrase a new earth. The word earth means land, mainly just referring to the land of Israel. It is a strange thing how adding the word "a" into a sentence also changes its feel. How different are these two phrase:
    There will be a new earth
    There will be new land/country

    After the civil war, America was a new land. Using the correct wording, things are not as dramatic as the incorrect translations make them seem. When the KJV was written, the translation was correct, because earth was soil/land. It baffles me why English translators continued to use the word "earth" in their translations after the word changed its meaning. When it was discovered we live on a planet, the word earth became the word used to represent the planet itself, and then it was no longer relevant to ancient Hebrew/Greek which had no word for the planet.





    That's one way of looking at it, a less literal day of the Lord, and two events 1000 years apart mentioned as if one.

    Another way of looking at it, is that the second coming will be a day of fire in which basic matter will melt, and the land of Israel will be burnt (NOT planet earth, the word does not mean that). I tend to the literal, and prefer the more literal day of the Lord, which is mainly described as a single day of wrath.
    Very sensible perspective. Thanks.

  5. #215
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If per my take on things the DOTL involves the 7 vials of wrath, why should I assume all 7 vials are poured out in the same 24 hour period?

    Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    Should we take this to mean...and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled....IOW until 24 hours or less have been fulfilled?
    There are several references to the DoTL, the day of wrath, etc. In John 6:39,40,43, 54 alone Jesus said 4x that he will raise the dead on the "last day". If you believe that the wrath of the Lamb and the resurrection will not run concurrently, but within 24hrs, then you're alone on this one.

  6. #216
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why do you see the day of the Lord involving all 7 vials of wrath? The wrath escalates towards the end, culminating in an intense day of wrath, a day we will not experience because we are not appointed to that wrath on the DOTL. One can see the timing of the rapture reflected in the wording of Rev 16:15-16, during the 6th bowl, just before Armageddon and the great earthquake and hailstones and mountains and islands removed. The day of the Lord starts with a surprise war on Israel according to Joel, fitting in with the 6th bowl of Armageddon:

    Joel 2 The Lord thunders
    at the head of his army;
    his forces are beyond number,
    and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
    The day of the Lord is great;
    it is dreadful.
    Who can endure it?
    The above plainly show how wrong you are.

    1. You posit that the church will not be around to witness the day of wrath. This supposes that the resurrection/rapture will occur BEFORE the day of the wrath.
    2. But in John 6, Jesus said he will raise the dead on the 'last day'.
    3. Unless it is your expert opinion that the day of wrath and the DoTL are separate and unrelated, you have clearly fallen into a hole of your own making because this two event (resurrection/rapture and God's wrath) all belong to the DoTL and are separated by more than 24hrs!

  7. #217
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,421

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The above plainly show how wrong you are.

    1. You posit that the church will not be around to witness the day of wrath. This supposes that the resurrection/rapture will occur BEFORE the day of the wrath.
    2. But in John 6, Jesus said he will raise the dead on the 'last day'.
    3. Unless it is your expert opinion that the day of wrath and the DoTL are separate and unrelated, you have clearly fallen into a hole of your own making because this two event (resurrection/rapture and God's wrath) all belong to the DoTL and are separated by more than 24hrs!
    My wording was not perfect, I meant we will not experience the wrath on that day. The first major event on the day of the Lord is the rapture/resurrection, followed by the armies attacking Israel, then many other events (earthquake/hailstones/islands removed/sulfur rain). Yes he will raise the dead on the last day.

  8. #218
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    EVERYONE agrees that the NJ and the NHNE in rev 21 and 22 are in the SAME time period.
    Amil says it happens after Jesus returns, and after having studied their scriptural reasons I accept most of what they put about the NHNE starting when Jesus returns.
    It is not just me saying this.
    I have FULLt dealt with Rev 20:11 and 13. I have shown you the Greek which explicitly shows the phrase about the H&E passing away was NOT happening at that moment but at a time in the past.
    To sustain your argument, you'll believe anything including Amil. No surprise there. You deny cherry picking but every statement you make that denies scriptural truth suggests exactly that. For example, you deny chronology in Rev 20:11 but insist it is present throughout Rev 21-22.

    Nope. There is an NHNE just as your and I become New Creations the MOMENT we are born again.
    However even though we are ENTIRELY New, yet we also need to be transformed.
    It is the SAME usage of language for the NHNE.
    It is NEW, there is a complete CHANGE for the ENTIRE World. Jesus has won the victory and has come to earth. The powers that used to be are gone. The heaven and the earth are therefore ENTIRELY new. However they also need renewing. The River of Life is flowing out and brings transformation. The leaves bring healing for the nations - which still exist for a time.
    It is NOT my belief that is at odds with scripture. It is just your trying to make it a certain way without accepting what is stated.
    Apparently, you and I have a very different definition of the NHNE. Your position is not in line with scripture, but you are fixated with it anyway.

  9. #219
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    My wording was not perfect, I meant we will not experience the wrath on that day. The first major event on the day of the Lord is the rapture/resurrection, followed by the armies attacking Israel, then many other events (earthquake/hailstones/islands removed/sulfur rain). Yes he will raise the dead on the last day.
    According to scripture, the rapture/resurrection is not the first event of the DoTL. It's actually the wrath of the Lamb. You can either believe or disagree with this depending on where you place the rapture.

  10. #220
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,149
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    To sustain your argument, you'll believe anything including Amil. No surprise there. You deny cherry picking but every statement you make that denies scriptural truth suggests exactly that. For example, you deny chronology in Rev 20:11 but insist it is present throughout Rev 21-22.
    I don't deny chronology in Rev 20, in fact I have stated the opposite. I have simply highlighted the FACT that the Greek grammar in verse 20:11 shows it is speaking in a tense which we do NOT have in English called the Aorist Indicative Active, and which is therefore difficult to translate exactly.

    Rev 20:11* Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.*(ESV)

    This verse has two parts:
    Rev 20:11* Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it.

    This part is part of the chronology given through the chapter.

    From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.*

    This part is NOT part of the chronology in that it is a DESCRIPTOR of the "him" who sat on the throne. It is a describing sentence and the sentence could as easily be translated as
    From his presence earth and sky had fled away, and no place was found for them.

    However you seem to wish to deny the FACT of the particular Greek form this verb is found in.

    I also don't believe anything, I always check as much as possible if it fits with scripture. The Amil understanding of the NHNE starting when Jesus returns IS scriptural. I argued with them for about two months before I understood what they were saying and saw how I was denying what the scripture said.

    Apparently, you and I have a very different definition of the NHNE. Your position is not in line with scripture, but you are fixated with it anyway.
    The NHNE is a NEW H and a NEW E.
    If I give you a coat, then it is new to you, but it may be old to me.
    If I take an old coat of yours which had stains on it and I removed the stains then you may exclaim "it is made new".

    The actual way the terminology is used as something which is RENEWED. It is the OLD made over into something NEW.
    This requires a removal and an addition.
    The removal is that of the principalities and powers and dominions of man.
    The addition is God.
    What then happens is a transformation.

    This is why scripture CAN and DOES say we are a NEW creation, even though we are still in the process of being transformed.
    This is because of the removal of the power of sin in our lives and the addition of God.

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,421

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    According to scripture, the rapture/resurrection is not the first event of the DoTL. It's actually the wrath of the Lamb. You can either believe or disagree with this depending on where you place the rapture.
    Please quote the verse that supports your position.

  12. #222
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Please quote the verse that supports your position.
    It all depends on which side of the rapture argument, i.e. Pretrib, Post-trib or Amil you are on. I am Post-trib and hold the belief that the wrath of the Lamb will occur while the church is on earth and prior to the rapture.

  13. #223
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,421

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    It all depends on which side of the rapture argument, i.e. Pretrib, Post-trib or Amil you are on. I am Post-trib and hold the belief that the wrath of the Lamb will occur while the church is on earth and prior to the rapture.
    I am post trib, and believe that we will go through the tribulation and many of the bowls of wrath. The timing of the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord just before the final war against Israel. I believe verses like following point to that timing:
    Rev 16:14-16 Jesus coming like a thief occurs just before Armageddon
    2 Thess 4:16-5:9 rapture occurs, at the time and date of the day of destruction

    I'm sure there are multiple other ways to treat those verses, but the clearest meaning of Rev 16:15 is that the church is here until just before Armageddon and goes through most of the bowls of wrath. When does the rapture occur according to 1 Thess 5:1? About times and dates, the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.....Destruction will come on them suddenly

  14. #224
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,421

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    To summarise my position I am saying that the NHNE is merely pointing to renewed land, not a new planet, and which happens TWICE, not once:
    3 verses describe this renewed land at the second coming/DOTL , Isaiah 65 Isaiah 66 and 2 Peter 3 (this renewed land could be mainly pointing to the land of Israel)
    2 verses indicate new land 1000 years later (Rev 20:11 and Rev 21:1)

    Trivalee claims there is only one NHNE at the end of the 1000 years. To explain the 3 mentions of a NHNE 1000 years earlier, Trivalee claims the DOTL is extended over a long period and yet has not put forward any proof of this. The day of the Lord gives the impression of being a single day of destruction in Joel 2/Zechariah 14/1Thess 5/2 Peter 3 and many more verses.

  15. #225
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,632
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: New Heaven New Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I am post trib, and believe that we will go through the tribulation and many of the bowls of wrath. The timing of the rapture occurs on the day of the Lord just before the final war against Israel. I believe verses like following point to that timing:
    Rev 16:14-16 Jesus coming like a thief occurs just before Armageddon
    2 Thess 4:16-5:9 rapture occurs, at the time and date of the day of destruction

    I'm sure there are multiple other ways to treat those verses, but the clearest meaning of Rev 16:15 is that the church is here until just before Armageddon and goes through most of the bowls of wrath. When does the rapture occur according to 1 Thess 5:1? About times and dates, the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.....Destruction will come on them suddenly
    No contention then...we are on the side of the argument. Bless

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. In Heaven or on Earth?
    By Soldier_of_Faith in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Apr 12th 2015, 12:36 AM
  2. Discussion New Heaven and New Earth ...
    By vja4Him in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: Sep 21st 2009, 03:09 PM
  3. A New Heaven And A New Earth.
    By napsnsnacks in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: Jun 23rd 2009, 07:19 AM
  4. Heaven and Earth the same???????
    By Firstfruits in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: Mar 16th 2009, 07:40 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •