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Thread: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

  1. #16
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    OK you are the first person claiming that Isaiah 65 & 66 is AFTER the GWToJ.
    Who are you? Do you think you are some supreme power of authority God sent? You are not qualified to put words in my mouth.

    Therefore, you do not know what I claim. You have no understanding of what I even said before. So don't go claiming I believe this, or that, about Isaiah 65 & 66, as if you can go shooting arrows and think they will automatically stick!

    I told you before, but you don't listen, you are wrapped up in your own conceit.

    Listen:

    Not every Book or Chapter in the OT prophets flows according to your thinking. Isaiah 65 doesn't even begin describing the new heavens and a new earth timing until verse 16! So you cannot just try and group every thing written in a Chapter and apply the whole Book or Chapter to a specific timeline.

    What timing is this verse?

    Isa 66:5
    5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at His word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for My name's sake, said, "Let the LORD be glorified": but He shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
    KJV


    That isn't new heavens and new earth timing, it is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming! It is immediately after the GT, i.e., start of Christ's Millennial reign, because that is when those who erred will appear in shame at Christ's Presence. So how is it that is in Isaiah 66????

    It's because we have to PAY ATTENTION to the actual content... in each verse, and having a working knowledge of all... of God's Word, we then know what timeline is being spoken of. It's that simple.

  2. #17
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You are disagreeing with the text then. The following is what marks the end of the millennium.

    Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    Clearly what ends the millennium is the loosing of satan, where satan then has a little season, then after the millennium and his little season, satan is judged and cast into the LOF, followed by the GWTJ. Irregardless when one might be taking the millennium to be, it ends with the loosing of satan for a little season.
    Fair enough divaD.
    Doesn't change the point I was making in regard to when the OHOE pass away.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #18
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I am just using the verses you quoted.
    Let me quote them and underline the words and then you tell me it doesn't speak about the world:
    2Pe 3:10* But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    KJV

    Not sure why IF you quote 2 Peter 3:10 that you can justify ignoring part of the verse you quoted at me?
    Note it doesn't say that the heavens are burnt up.


    Not at all:
    Eph 6:12* For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
    ESV

    Where does Paul state these powers are? In the heavenlies:
    G2032
    ἐπουράνιος
    epouranios
    ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
    From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

    So it is the heavenlies which will pass in a roar for this is the place where the spiritual forces of darkness are.

    This passage is NOT about a PHYSICAL destruction of the sky and the land.
    It is about a SPIRITUAL change in the heavenlies and the dominions and works of Man.
    You are confusing the 'firmaments' with demons ie principalities and powers. In the creation in Gen 1, the scripture talks about the firmaments. Read it up.

  4. #19
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    My

    This marks the end of the millennium....,


    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.




    Final judgment and destruction of all the ungodly then takes place. ( see 2pet 3 )



    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

    So after the Judgment, we the bride ( city )inherit a NHNE, free from death and all those other nasties.

    Rev 21
    21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”


    Jesus put it this way in Matt 25...,

    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    I share the same view. Rev 20:11 nailed it that this present heaven and earth will be replaced or restored at the GWTJ, not at the beginning of the millennium.

  5. #20
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The new Jerusalem definitely is a post-Millennial event associated with the new heavens and a new earth. It doesn't come to earth until Christ's future Millennial reign is over, including God's GWT Judgment with the destruction of the wicked and death into the "lake of fire". We should never confuse those two times, for the wicked will not see God's Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.

    However, as shown in Ezekiel 47, the sanctuary during Christ's Millennial reign will flow God's River out from under the threshold, healing the waters on earth it comes into contact with. And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing its fruits that will not be consumed, and the leaves are for the healing of the nations. This begins manifesting on earth with Christ's Millennial reign. This view we are shown in Rev.22:14-15, which is about the time of Christ's Millennial reign with the wicked still existing in the "outer darkness" outside the gates of the beloved city on earth will the saints will be.
    You are 100% on point. Notice that during the millennial age, the sea (embodiment of all bodies of water, the oceans, seas, rivers, etc) is still present and yields all that died in it at the GWTJ (Rev 20:13)? Notice also that at the Throne judgment, Rev 20:11 this present heaven (sky/firmaments) and earth flees from Jesus?

    But in Rev 21:1b, the sea is NO MORE. This is when the NHNE is now in place, the sea apparently is part of the firmaments that will be burnt up by fire.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I share the same view. Rev 20:11 nailed it that this present heaven and earth will be replaced or restored at the GWTJ, not at the beginning of the millennium.
    Thanks Trivalee.
    That is also when we see the NJ coming down all prepared.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I share the same view. Rev 20:11 nailed it that this present heaven and earth will be replaced or restored at the GWTJ, not at the beginning of the millennium.

    So why do you reject Amil then? If the NHNE can't begin with the 2nd coming, via a Premil perspective, Amil makes far better sense in that case, since it makes no sense that the NHNE wouldn't begin with the 2nd coming.

    It also makes no sense that when Jesus returns, righteousness won't be dwelling in the earth at the time, well not until a thousand years and little season later. But if the earth becomes a place wherein dwelleth righteousness once Jesus has returned, one can't have a place like that without having a NHNE. That according to 2 Peter 3:13.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness

    One is to believe that God won't even fulfill this promise when He initially returns, but instead will put off fulfilling this promise for another thousand years post the 2nd coming?

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    When does ths get fulfilled then....The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever?

    Because whenever it does, hard to imagine that the earth would still be a place wherein does not dwell righteousness.

  8. #23
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are 100% on point. Notice that during the millennial age, the sea (embodiment of all bodies of water, the oceans, seas, rivers, etc) is still present and yields all that died in it at the GWTJ (Rev 20:13)? Notice also that at the Throne judgment, Rev 20:11 this present heaven (sky/firmaments) and earth flees from Jesus?

    But in Rev 21:1b, the sea is NO MORE. This is when the NHNE is now in place, the sea apparently is part of the firmaments that will be burnt up by fire.
    Yet one still can't have a NJ without a NHNE, nor a NHNE without a NJ, post the 2nd coming. Until you are able to reasonably deal with that first, all your other points are somewhat moot in the meantime.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It also makes no sense that when Jesus returns, righteousness won't be dwelling in the earth at the time, well not until a thousand years and little season later. But if the earth becomes a place wherein dwelleth righteousness once Jesus has returned, one can't have a place like that without having a NHNE. That according to 2 Peter 3:13.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness

    One is to believe that God won't even fulfill this promise when He initially returns, but instead will put off fulfilling this promise for another thousand years post the 2nd coming?
    33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect.
    Read Isaiah 65 & 66:
    Isa 65:17* “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*

    Isa 66:22* “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.*
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*

    This clearly speaks of an NHNE.
    When does this happen? BEFORE the GWToJ or AFTER?
    Think carefully before answering.

    Have you paid attention to what is stated in the start of Rev 22?
    Rev 22:1* Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb*
    Rev 22:2* through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Same river, same tree of life with healing for the nations.
    What nations will there be AFTER the GWToJ?

    I am PreMil Post-Trib and scripture is very clear. There is an NHNE when Jesus returns. This is indisputable from scripture.
    What some try to argue is that there is ANOTHER NHNE after the MK, once they recognise this FACT.
    The simple Average Joe understanding is that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns, but grows UNTIL the whole world has been renewed.
    Isaiah 65 (New Heaven and New Earth) is a general prophecy.

    Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


    Isaiah spoke about the NHNE in conjunction with the millennial age. John too saw it in conjunction with the NJ, but the texts don't say that they start at the same time.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    The above passages have led many to erroneously conclude that the NHNE is synonymous with NJ or that both will start at the same time. But is this true? Let's find out through the scriptures. Both Isaiah and John made general statements. We must bear in mind that God inspires/talks his servants on-a-need-to-know-basis. So as these servants didn't tell us when these things occur, it doesn't mean they were hiding it from us. Far from it, God just didn't tell them!

    Both Isaiah and John simply told us what they saw without telling us their order of occurrence. Let's look for similar general prophecies and how their timeline was explained.

    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the dead (the just and the wicked) at the end times. We know for certain that the wicked (that rise into everlasting shame and contempt) and the righteous will not rise at the same time. How do we know that? Paul and John provide the answers. So in 1 Thess 4:16 we learn that the dead in Christ will rise first. In Rev 20:5 John speaks about the first resurrection and in Rev 20:12-13 we see the resurrection of the wicked. So from Paul and John, we understand the timescales of Daniel and Jesus Christ' prophesies.

    So we should seek to understand Isaiah 65 in the same way. When will the NHNE start?

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    Fortunately, Peter explained the fate of the present heaven/earth and we know that the NHNE cannot come until the old is removed. So the NJ will be at the onset of the MK, but the NHNE at the end of it.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


    35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
    In the 2nd passage, in verse 36...But of that day and hour no one knows...what would be the nearest antecedent? Would it not be this? Heaven and earth will pass away

    Isn't verse 36 then saying the following? But of that day and hour, when heaven and earth will pass away, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. And doesn't verse 37 indicate this is the coming of the Son of man? And doesn't 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3 indicate that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, thus indicating no man knows when that day will be until it comes first?

    Therefore...2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, and Matthew 24:34-37, are all referring to the same events.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So why do you reject Amil then? If the NHNE can't begin with the 2nd coming, via a Premil perspective, Amil makes far better sense in that case, since it makes no sense that the NHNE wouldn't begin with the 2nd coming.

    It also makes no sense that when Jesus returns, righteousness won't be dwelling in the earth at the time, well not until a thousand years and little season later. But if the earth becomes a place wherein dwelleth righteousness once Jesus has returned, one can't have a place like that without having a NHNE. That according to 2 Peter 3:13.

    2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness

    One is to believe that God won't even fulfill this promise when He initially returns, but instead will put off fulfilling this promise for another thousand years post the 2nd coming?

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    When does ths get fulfilled then....The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever?

    Because whenever it does, hard to imagine that the earth would still be a place wherein does not dwell righteousness.
    Take note of the following:

    1. There will be righteousness ONLY in the NJ.
    2. But the sin, death, wickedness, etc. will still occur in the rest of the world.
    3. 2 Peter 3:7 corroborated by Rev 20:11 confirms that this present H&E will be destroyed at the GWTJ which you and I know occurs at the END of the MILLENNIUM.
    4. And the NHNE is a replacement of the old which is destroyed. Why is this too difficult to understand?
    5. In contrast to the NJ which is limited to Jerusalem, when the NHNE comes 1000 years later after the Throne Judgment, it will encompass the earth. Hence "we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness"!
    6. 2 Peter 3:13 which you quoted denotes absolute righteousness (all over the world, not just limited to NJ) after the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Fortunately, Peter explained the fate of the present heaven/earth and we know that the NHNE cannot come until the old is removed.
    Peter also is explaining the fate of the ungodly , being not only their judgment but their destruction as well (GWT) , at his promised coming.



    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


    8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    What exactly would be the point of John seeing a NHNE at that particular time, if it had no connection to the NJ at that particular time? Why would these two verses involve totally unrelated contexts? That's the same kind of reasoning some use in regards to Matthew 24:34. Some claim the context of that verse is the first century, regardless that the contexts of the verses surrounding it are not the first century.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    In the 2nd passage, in verse 36...But of that day and hour no one knows...what would be the nearest antecedent? Would it not be this? Heaven and earth will pass away

    Isn't verse 36 then saying the following? But of that day and hour, when heaven and earth will pass away, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. And doesn't verse 37 indicate this is the coming of the Son of man? And doesn't 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3 indicate that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, thus indicating no man knows when that day will be until it comes first?

    Therefore...2 Peter 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, and Matthew 24:34-37, are all referring to the same events.
    Yes.


    So how can this verse not happen at his second coming?

    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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