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Thread: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

  1. #61
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If only you can see the holes in your argument, this discussion wouldn't be so tedious. You had initially asserted that the NHNE will only be in NJ, I'm glad you've seen how that view is impossible by revising it to encompass the whole world. However, you still have a problem. Now, you've accepted that NHNE covers the world when it starts, how do you reconcile Rev 21:4 that says there's no death and sorrow in the NHNE?

    1. Remember that the NHNE is not the same as NJ where death will not exist in the MK?
    2. According to you, the NHNE covers the whole world. Therefore, it cannot start when you claim since death and sorrow remain in the world during the MK.
    Rev 21:4 is NOT speaking about the NHNE. It speaks ONLY of the NJ.
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.*
    Rev 21:4* He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

    Where is God? In the NJ.
    Where is He wiping away their tears? In the NJ.

    What does Isaiah also state:
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

    John is hearing what was said to Isaiah.

    Death WILL indeed exist in the MK, but NOT in the NJ.
    It most certainly can start, just as you can sin, though you are a NEW creation.

    You see I have NO holes in what I am presenting. The HOLE is entirely of your making because YOU claim Rev 21:4 is speaking about the entire NHNE, but it does NOT, and when you grasp this simple FACT, then your hole is gone.

  2. #62
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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your objection is merely a repetition of the same false interpretation of the NHNE which you hold.
    Nope. I don't simply repeat, but try to respond to the actual claim of where I am wrong and show why it is not the case.
    If you chose not to deal with the reasoning I present, then that is up to you.
    Last edited by ForHisglory; Nov 11th 2018 at 08:14 PM.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 21:4 is NOT speaking about the NHNE. It speaks ONLY of the NJ.
    Rev 21:2* And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.*
    Rev 21:3* And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.*
    Rev 21:4* He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

    Where is God? In the NJ.
    Where is He wiping away their tears? In the NJ.

    What does Isaiah also state:
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

    John is hearing what was said to Isaiah.

    Death WILL indeed exist in the MK, but NOT in the NJ.
    It most certainly can start, just as you can sin, though you are a NEW creation.

    You see I have NO holes in what I am presenting. The HOLE is entirely of your making because YOU claim Rev 21:4 is speaking about the entire NHNE, but it does NOT, and when you grasp this simple FACT, then your hole is gone.
    You simply pick and choose which text you want in the NJ and NHNE as you please, isn't it?

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You simply pick and choose which text you want in the NJ and NHNE as you please, isn't it?
    Nope. I go with what is ACTUALLY stated.
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NHNE?
    Verse 1
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NJ?
    Verse 2
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about no more death?
    Verse 4, which therefore relates back to verse 2.

    Additionally we have Isaiah 65 which states the SAME thing about no more crying etc which is about the NJ.

    SO I am NOT the one who is picking and choosing. That is someone else who is ignoring the CONTEXT clearly laid out.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. I go with what is ACTUALLY stated.
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NHNE?
    Verse 1
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NJ?
    Verse 2
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about no more death?
    Verse 4, which therefore relates back to verse 2.
    Death is no more when it is thrown into the lake in Rev 20:14. So the NHNE and the NJ are death free when all things are made new.

    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


    Rev 21
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away..
    And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new

    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Death is no more when it is thrown into the lake in Rev 20:14. So the NHNE and the NJ are death free when all things are made new.

    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Rev 21
    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away..
    And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new

    The problem with your claim is that you are stating that Rev 21 is chronologically AFTER Rev 20.
    However there is no requirement for Rev 21 to be chronologically after Rev 20 verse 14.

    In FACT the text suggests otherwise.
    We have numerous statements within Rev 21 and 22, which match Isaiah 65 & 66 which shows a requirement for healing of the nations.
    AFTER the Final Judgement there are no nations.
    Additionally it is noted that there is no more death in Rev 21:4 (in the NJ). This would NOT be necessary to state IF Rev 21 followed chronologically from Rev 20:14 which has ALREADY stated death is gone.

    There is no more death in the NJ, but there remains death in the NHNE until the MK is over.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The problem with your claim is that you are stating that Rev 21 is chronologically AFTER Rev 20.
    However there is no requirement for Rev 21 to be chronologically after Rev 20 verse 14.
    The passing away of the old is required before all things are made new. Its nonsense to suggest that God will restore all things new before all the old things pass away.

    The MK is over before the GWT of REV 20:11-14 takes place.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The passing away of the old is required before all things are made new. Its nonsense to suggest that God will restore all things new before all the old things pass away.
    An interesting claim about what is nonsense - does it require the OLD to entirely pass away BEFORE the NEW comes?
    Nope NOT according to scripture.
    First example is the OLD and NEW Covenant.
    When Jesus introduced the NEW Covenant, had the OLD completely passed away?
    Heb 8:13* In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.*

    You see the OLD is made obsolete by the NEW, yet it actually goes through a process of BECOMING obsolete and of GROWING old.

    What about when we are NEW creations?
    1Cor 5:7* Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
    You see the old leaven remains, even though we are unleavened.

    Scripture shows repeatedly that when things are made NEW that the OLD remains for a time. We are to walk in the NEW way, and not to return to the OLD which we sometimes do.

    Therefore there is a TRUTH we need to grasp hold of.
    There is a meaning by which we ARE new. It is a reality from that moment forward.
    Yet there is also a meaning whereby we are being transformed, with the old BECOMING obsolete.

    The nonsense is actually to claim that God makes things new AFTER the old has passed away. You get the order backwards. If God were to do that then the old would have died and there would be NOTHING with which to make NEW.
    God is in the business of redemption. He takes what is OLD and makes it NEW, and then removes what is leaven that we may truly be unleavened.

    The MK is over before the GWT of REV 20:11-14 takes place.
    Indeed it is. And?
    Rev 21 is speaking of the moment when the church which was raptured comes to earth with Her bridegroom to the High Mountain, Mount Zion.
    This occurs WHEN Jesus returns. Do you NOT believe that?

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. I go with what is ACTUALLY stated.
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NHNE?
    Verse 1
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about the NJ?
    Verse 2
    Where in Rev 21 does it speak about no more death?
    Verse 4, which therefore relates back to verse 2.

    Additionally we have Isaiah 65 which states the SAME thing about no more crying etc which is about the NJ.

    SO I am NOT the one who is picking and choosing. That is someone else who is ignoring the CONTEXT clearly laid out.
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    You don't believe in general prophecy as you say, right? In v-29 Jesus spoke about the resurrection of the just and the wicked without stating that 1000 years separate the two. Rev 21:1 is no different.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    You don't believe in general prophecy as you say, right? In v-29 Jesus spoke about the resurrection of the just and the wicked without stating that 1000 years separate the two. Rev 21:1 is no different.
    I certainly do NOT believe in general prophecy and you are wrong in your claim about John 5:29.
    This passage speaks of the SAME resurrection as mentioned in Daniel 12:2
    Dan 12:2* And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    BOTH passages are speaking of the SAME resurrection:
    Rev 20:12* And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.*
    Rev 20:13* And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.*
    Rev 20:14* And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.*
    Rev 20:15* And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.*

    This is NOT a general prophecy but a very specific one. It is about the Final Resurrection with the Final Judgement.

    You confuse John 5:29 which is about Rev 20:12 with John 5:24 & 25 which is about Rev 20:4 & 5

    IOW you are accepting AMil teaching on that verse.
    Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*
    Rev 20:5* But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Joh 5:24* Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.*
    Joh 5:25* Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    You see the FIRST resurrection is ONLY for those who have heard the words of Jesus and believed on Him.

    Rev 21:1 is NOT a general prophecy, because there is no such thing. Also it is stated DIRECTLY in connection with the NJ. the NJ comes down AFTER the NHNE is declared.

    Now I also note you didn't address the point I made (yet again), which is that the NJ is in view in verse 4, NOT the NHNE of verse 1. This would especially be true IF verse 1 is as you claim a general prophecy.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    The passing away of the old is required before all things are made new. Its nonsense to suggest that God will restore all things new before all the old things pass away.

    The MK is over before the GWT of REV 20:11-14 takes place.
    I've pointed that out using 2 Peter 3, but he's having none of it.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    I'd like to weigh in on the subject, though I'm by no means sure of anything with respect to these things. My opinion, as it now stands, is that Christ will come, a Millennium will ensue, followed by the new creation. That is a pretty standard view, although I can understand why there are Amillennialists, and why there are those who believe that at Christ's Coming the New Creation will begin.

    I think a lot of this may be explained by the difference of dispensations, the OT, the NT, the Millennial Age, and the New Creation. In the OT language the Prophets depicted NT realities using OT terminology. For example, the temple of Ezekiel is depicted as an OT physical structure, in order to reform the current people under the then-current system. In reality, the temple, located high up a mountain, was never intended to be anything other than a representation of heavenly realities under a NT system.

    We find this the case in a number of places. For example, Zechariah 14 seems to speak of the coming of a NT age in which holiness is depicted under OT standards. But I think these symbols merely represented heavenly realities in the Millennial age. There are also presentations, in the Prophets, of a future temple, as if it will exist in OT form. But we know this form has already passed away, when Christ died on the cross, becoming the new, eternal temple. And certainly, in 70 AD the OT temple passed away for all time.

    When we come to the depiction in the NT era of the Millennial age, we're confronted with the same kind of language problem. We speak of things in that age that occur in the present age, but will not occur in that age. The binding of Satan will lessen the international conflict and the problem of sin. But we are told very little of the actual conditions of the Millennial age. And it continues to be described, using OT symbolism, even though we are already in the NT age. We are just not yet in the *fulfillment* of the NT age in terms of the NT Kingdom.

    But when we come to describing the New Creation we are really stuck, because we have to describe a whole different order using the language of our current time. And so we use language of the current creation to describe a creation of the eternal order.

    When we come to the last chapters of Isaiah we have this same problem, in describing what will be in the new creation in terms of what will happen 1st in the Millennial age. It is all a language issue, in my thinking. But the order of events seems pretty well established, in terms of a future Millennium that will consist of the present order of creation, minus the Devil. There then follows the eternal order, depicted in language of this order that we can properly understand.

    I think both Jews and Christans have long had a concept of a future Millennial Kingdom of God. But it is depicted, biblically, both in terms of its future destiny in a new order and in terms of its relationship to the current creation. It is thus a parenthesis, though an important one, in the transition between two very different orders of creation. It appears to be a paradise, but it remains a sinful group of fallen nations. But its future in a perfect order is certain and secure. This must not be lost sight of!

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I certainly do NOT believe in general prophecy and you are wrong in your claim about John 5:29.
    This passage speaks of the SAME resurrection as mentioned in Daniel 12:2
    Dan 12:2* And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    BOTH passages are speaking of the SAME resurrection:
    Rev 20:12* And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.*
    Rev 20:13* And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.*
    Rev 20:14* And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.*
    Rev 20:15* And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.*

    This is NOT a general prophecy but a very specific one. It is about the Final Resurrection with the Final Judgement.

    You confuse John 5:29 which is about Rev 20:12 with John 5:24 & 25 which is about Rev 20:4 & 5
    I agree that Dan 12:2 corroborates John 5:28-29, but you are just not paying attention to what is being said. By claiming that the passages refer to the Final Resurrection and Judgment, you are right but willfully chose to ignore the fact those in Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 will not rise at the same time.

    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Will you disagree that "those that did GOOD, that rise to LIFE" and "those that rise to EVERLASTING LIFE" refers to the saints that participate in the first resurrection separated by the 1000-year millennial rule before the latter arise to face judgment? And you are wrong because John 5:29 is not about Rev 20:12 which says in part " and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

    Notice that TWO Books are opened; ONE is the Book of Life.
    Notice also "and the DEAD were judged from the things written in the books. The dead being judged are the wicked that rose after the MK is over, not the righteous who have already received immortality and everlasting life (and ergo, *alive*) at the beginning of the MK (Rev 20:4).

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IOW you are accepting AMil teaching on that verse.
    Rev 20:4* And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.*
    Rev 20:5* But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Joh 5:24* Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.*
    Joh 5:25* Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    You see the FIRST resurrection is ONLY for those who have heard the words of Jesus and believed on Him.

    Rev 21:1 is NOT a general prophecy, because there is no such thing. Also it is stated DIRECTLY in connection with the NJ. the NJ comes down AFTER the NHNE is declared.

    Now I also note you didn't address the point I made (yet again), which is that the NJ is in view in verse 4, NOT the NHNE of verse 1. This would especially be true IF verse 1 is as you claim a general prophecy.
    I am not Amil and never supported their doctrine. And you are making wild assumptions devoid of proof. As Daniel 12 spoke of the resurrection of the dead (both the righteous and wicked), in the same way, Jesus spoke about the same in John 5:24-29. There has been a debate about when the OT saints will rise and I believe they will resurrect to participate in the MK. So I don't think your claim that the first resurrection is limited to the NT saints is entirely true.

    I have explained Rev 21 in several posts which I believe you've read. I, therefore, find it repetitive to respond to your assumptions regarding Rev 21:1-4 given that my position is very clear. It makes no difference whether you believe in general prophecy or not as what you believe doesn't affect what the Bible says. It is convenient for you to separate Rev 20:11-12 and put 1000 years between them, but when it suited, you lob Rev 21:1-4 together and insist they speak of the same timeline? I just wonder?

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I agree that Dan 12:2 corroborates John 5:28-29, but you are just not paying attention to what is being said. By claiming that the passages refer to the Final Resurrection and Judgment, you are right but willfully chose to ignore the fact those in Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 will not rise at the same time.
    Nope. They are the SAME resurrection. This is the resurrection for Judgement. There is ONLY ONE resurrection for judgement and that is the Final Resurrection and Final Judgement.

    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Will you disagree that "those that did GOOD, that rise to LIFE" and "those that rise to EVERLASTING LIFE" refers to the saints that participate in the first resurrection separated by the 1000-year millennial rule before the latter arise to face judgment? And you are wrong because John 5:29 is not about Rev 20:12 which says in part " and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
    Yes I disagree.
    Just because you are given eternal life doesn't mean you participate in the First Resurrection.
    There are those in the Final Resurrection who will be given Eternal life.
    What we see is a judgement occurring in BOTH.
    The First Resurrection is NOT about judgement.
    John 5 specifically says "those that DID good" which means it is about WORKS. SO IF you have GOOD works then you will be granted eternal life and IF you did BAD works, then you are not. This is the SAME point made in Daniel 12 where those who DID right will receive LIFE, and those who did NOT, will receive shame.

    Notice that TWO Books are opened; ONE is the Book of Life.
    Notice also "and the DEAD were judged from the things written in the books. The dead being judged are the wicked that rose after the MK is over, not the righteous who have already received immortality and everlasting life (and ergo, *alive*) at the beginning of the MK (Rev 20:4).
    The separation of those who are righteous and those who are wicked is NOT at death, for then that would be the time of judgement. The separation occurs AT the Judgement. We do NOT know who will be judged righteous or wicked, we can only guess.

    I am not Amil and never supported their doctrine. And you are making wild assumptions devoid of proof. As Daniel 12 spoke of the resurrection of the dead (both the righteous and wicked), in the same way, Jesus spoke about the same in John 5:24-29. There has been a debate about when the OT saints will rise and I believe they will resurrect to participate in the MK. So I don't think your claim that the first resurrection is limited to the NT saints is entirely true.
    Nope John 5:24 and 25 is NOT the SAME resurrection as that in 5:29.
    In the first resurrection Jesus speaks about, He speaks about believing in Him.
    It is those who believe in Him who take part in the first resurrection.
    You may believe that OT saints take part in the 1st resurrection, and it is a separate debate, yet it REQUIRES your "general" prophecy to be real. Without it there are ZERO scriptures supporting OT saints taking part in the first resurrection.
    The first resurrection is ONLY mentioned in the NT.


    I have explained Rev 21 in several posts which I believe you've read. I, therefore, find it repetitive to respond to your assumptions regarding Rev 21:1-4 given that my position is very clear. It makes no difference whether you believe in general prophecy or not as what you believe doesn't affect what the Bible says. It is convenient for you to separate Rev 20:11-12 and put 1000 years between them, but when it suited, you lob Rev 21:1-4 together and insist they speak of the same timeline? I just wonder?
    Your position is clear, yet you continue to FAIL to address the simple points made.
    I explained very clear usage of language and grammar for you as to why Rev 20:11 has the "heaven and earth fled away" as being past to the event of Him sitting in judgement. You can ignore what is ACTUALLY written in the Greek as you like.
    However it is why I see Rev 20 as being different to Rev 21.
    Further you are yet to give a cohesive answer to why you remove the NJ out of verse 2, or why you think verse 4 speaks oft eh whole NHNE even though the NJ was just mentioned. It is NOT I who is playing with words or word order or chronology. Are you really claiming verse 4 isn't related to verse 3 and that the tabernacle of God is NOT His throne room in Jerusalem?

    Rev 21:3* And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.*
    Rev 21:4* And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    G4633
    σκηνή
    skēnē
    Thayer Definition:
    1) tent, tabernacle, (made of green boughs, or skins or other materials)
    2) of that well known movable temple of God after the pattern of which the temple at Jerusalem was built

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. They are the SAME resurrection. This is the resurrection for Judgement. There is ONLY ONE resurrection for judgement and that is the Final Resurrection and Final Judgement.
    Your belief that Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 both speak only of the resurrection of the wicked for judgment is so very wrong, it's laughable.

    Yes I disagree.
    Just because you are given eternal life doesn't mean you participate in the First Resurrection.
    There are those in the Final Resurrection who will be given Eternal life.
    What we see is a judgement occurring in BOTH.
    The First Resurrection is NOT about judgement.
    John specifically says "those that DID good" which means it is about WORKS. SO IF you have GOOD works then you will be granted eternal life and IF you did BAD works, then you are not. This is the SAME point made in Daniel 12 where those who DID right will receive LIFE, and those who did NOT, will receive shame.
    It's obvious you've really lost your logic.
    How can one have eternal life and not participate in the first resurrection?
    Actually, the reverse is the case; it is resurrection first and then eternal life is received when we become immortal.
    It is debatable whether any of those that rise in the final resurrection will receive eternal life. If the OT saints participate in the MK, then no one will receive eternal life in the final resurrection.

    The saints who arise first have already been given judgment (Rev 20:4). If the devout are judged at the GWTJ, then it's merely a formality given they have reigned with Jesus during the MK. To assert that those that did “good” in John 5:29 is about WORKS is childish since NO ONE is saved by works. For a mature believer, I wonder why you promote this idea?

    The separation of those who are righteous and those who are wicked is NOT at death, for then that would be the time of judgement. The separation occurs AT the Judgement. We do NOT know who will be judged righteous or wicked, we can only guess.
    The resurrection separates the righteous and the wicked. For while the former rises first to participate in the marriage of the Lamb (MK), the wicked remains in the grave till the 1000 years is over.

    Nope John 5:24 and 25 is NOT the SAME resurrection as that in 5:29.
    In the first resurrection Jesus speaks about, He speaks about believing in Him.
    It is those who believe in Him who take part in the first resurrection.
    You may believe that OT saints take part in the 1st resurrection, and it is a separate debate, yet it REQUIRES your "general" prophecy to be real. Without it there are ZERO scriptures supporting OT saints taking part in the first resurrection.
    The first resurrection is ONLY mentioned in the NT.
    John 5:24-29 speaks of the same people. I will, however, concede that the case for OT saints rising in the first resurrection is rather weak. As you pointed out, there aren't clear supporting scriptures.

    Your position is clear, yet you continue to FAIL to address the simple points made.
    I explained very clear usage of language and grammar for you as to why Rev 20:11 has the "heaven and earth fled away" as being past to the event of Him sitting in judgement. You can ignore what is ACTUALLY written in the Greek as you like.
    However it is why I see Rev 20 as being different to Rev 21.
    Further you are yet to give a cohesive answer to why you remove the NJ out of verse 2, or why you think verse 4 speaks oft eh whole NHNE even though the NJ was just mentioned. It is NOT I who is playing with words or word order or chronology. Are you really claiming verse 4 isn't related to verse 3 and that the tabernacle of God is NOT His throne room in Jerusalem?

    Rev 21:3* And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.*
    Rev 21:4* And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    G4633
    σκηνή
    skēnē
    Thayer Definition:
    1) tent, tabernacle, (made of green boughs, or skins or other materials)
    2) of that well known movable temple of God after the pattern of which the temple at Jerusalem was built
    I pointed out that the absence of the sea in Rev 21:1 in contrast to its presence in Rev 20:13 is clear proof that the NHNE doesn't start at the beginning of the MK as you claim. I have reiterated this several times, so why did you say I failed to address it? This absence of the "sea" is the cogent reason I reject your claim that the NJ and NHNE are concurrent in Rev 21:1.

    Therefore, going forward, I drew the conclusion that Rev 21:2-5 can only refer to post GWTJ when the NHNE is in place. As if John knew you would disagree, he repeated for emphasis in v-5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

    OTOH, you conveniently put 1000 years between Rev 20:11 and 12 without a single scriptural proof.

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