Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
Your belief that Dan 12:2 and John 5:29 both speak only of the resurrection of the wicked for judgment is so very wrong, it's laughable.
What you are claiming I am saying is laughable.
I didn't say it is a resurrection of the wicked.
It is a resurrection of EVERYONE who did NOT take part in the first resurrection of Rev 20.
This is BOTH righteous and wicked.
The purpose is for judgement.

It's obvious you've really lost your logic.
How can one have eternal life and not participate in the first resurrection?
Actually, the reverse is the case; it is resurrection first and then eternal life is received when we become immortal.
It is debatable whether any of those that rise in the final resurrection will receive eternal life. If the OT saints participate in the MK, then no one will receive eternal life in the final resurrection.
I didn't lose my logic, but I guess it wasn't clear enough for you.
You don't have eternal life UNTIL AFTER judgement.
It is AT judgement that it is determined whether you receive eternal life or not.
Heb 9:27* And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Everyone dies and later will face judgement. ONLY those who are in Jesus, who believe in Him are part of the first resurrection.

What did Paul tell the Romans?
Rom 2:5* But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.*
Rom 2:6* He will render to each one according to his works:*
Rom 2:7* to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;*
Rom 2:8* but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.*
Rom 2:9* There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,*
Rom 2:10* but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.*
Rom 2:11* For God shows no partiality.*

Very clearly this speaks of judgement and that some will get eternal life and others wrath and fury.

The saints who arise first have already been given judgment (Rev 20:4). If the devout are judged at the GWTJ, then it's merely a formality given they have reigned with Jesus during the MK. To assert that those that did “good” in John 5:29 is about WORKS is childish since NO ONE is saved by works. For a mature believer, I wonder why you promote this idea?
Judgement is NEVER a formality. We are NOT judged for eternal life, but for reward. We are NOT partof the Final Judgement w=for we are NOT numbered among the dead. It is the dead who are judged.
Actually best read you Bible about works.
Romans 2 spells it out for you.
No one can be saved through works EXCEPT by the work of Jesus.
However how does Abraham gain His righteousness?
It is faith through works. The two cannot be separated.

The resurrection separates the righteous and the wicked. For while the former rises first to participate in the marriage of the Lamb (MK), the wicked remains in the grave till the 1000 years is over.
Nope, the first resurrection is ONLY for those who are His, those who believe in Him.

John 5:24-29 speaks of the same people. I will, however, concede that the case for OT saints rising in the first resurrection is rather weak. As you pointed out, there aren't clear supporting scriptures.
There is a separation in John 5 for Jesus mentions those who believe in Him and they pass from death to life,
Joh 5:24* Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.*
Joh 5:25* “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.*


Then he speaks of the righteous and wicked
Joh 5:28* Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice*
Joh 5:29* and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.*

Notice Jesus says those who have DONE good. As a mature believer I often wonder at the poor teaching given in the Church. The ONLY way to receive eternal life is to be granted it by Jesus. This does NOT mean that when Jesus says "I give life to whom I choose" that He then cannot do that. Of course He can.
From the very beginning of the Bible God has chosen to ask people to live lives worth y of Him.
Unfortunately NOBODY knows if their good works are enough.

I pointed out that the absence of the sea in Rev 21:1 in contrast to its presence in Rev 20:13 is clear proof that the NHNE doesn't start at the beginning of the MK as you claim. I have reiterated this several times, so why did you say I failed to address it? This absence of the "sea" is the cogent reason I reject your claim that the NJ and NHNE are concurrent in Rev 21:1.
Yes you have and I said why it is not an issue and gave you the reasons why not. You refused then to deal with the point I made. To simply reiterate leads nowhere.
I note your reason and I highlighted how the word sea is used in different ways in revealtion, which you have not acknowledge as being valid.

Therefore, going forward, I drew the conclusion that Rev 21:2-5 can only refer to post GWTJ when the NHNE is in place. As if John knew you would disagree, he repeated for emphasis in v-5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
OTOH, you conveniently put 1000 years between Rev 20:11 and 12 without a single scriptural proof.
Verse 2 is the NJ which you agree is at the START of the MK, so this means you have a problem with your timing.
As for the question of the 1,000 years in verse 11, I did provide you with the evidence WITHIN the verse.
Rev 20:11 speaks of the throne and the one who sits on it AFTER the MK.:
Rev 20:11* Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

What I highlighted is that the sentence underlined is a descriptor about the one who is seated on the throne.
The grammatical form used is that of the Aorist Indicative Active, which means it is NOT describing an event which has just happened, but describes an event that happened in the past at some time.

To give an example:
You all know my guest. He has instilled fear in many and few now challenge him.

The guest is described by what he has achieved in the past and NOT by what he is doing at that moment when I see him.