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Thread: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

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    The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    My apologies for the length of this exegesis. Normally, I prefer short articles but there's no way to do justice to this important and controversial discourse. Debates about the millennium, NJ and NHNE has been raging for as long as anyone can remember and consequently, opinions and interpretations are numerous as the sand on the shore.

    A recent discussion has prompted me to post my research and study on these topics for review and discussion. Many of us duly acknowledge that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order yet in our interpretation of Rev 20-22, some of us walk inexplicably with our eyes wide open into the error of interpreting the last three chapters as if they are in chronology. Hence, some are seeing several NHNE and mirages.

    My approach is simple. I just assume that every verse in Rev 20-22 is a piece of a jigsaw, which I gather together into a bowl. Next, I lay out a flat table and as one would put the pieces of a jigsaw together to get a clear picture, I begin to put them together to present a concise interpretation and place these three events (MK, NJ, NHNE)in appropriate timescales.

    The Millennial Age & New Jerusalem (NJ):

    We all know this will start after Jesus has returned and defeated the Beasts and his army at Armageddon. They will start at the same time and run concurrently. John sees the NJ descending from heaven.

    Rev 21:10 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high
    mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    From Rev 21:11-22 John describes the beauty of the city. Unlike the wall, Israel built in the West Bank to keep away the Palestinians, the NJ will have 12 gates; 3 each on the east, west, north, and south of the city and guarded by 12 angels. There will be no interlopers or unauthorized persons. But outside the city and the rest of the world, life goes as usual.


    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    The people living outside the NJ will be mandated at the point of punishment to come yearly during the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut 16:16, Zech 14:16-17) at the point of punishment to pay homage to the Lord Jesus and his saints. 60:12). In the OT covenant, the feast of tabernacles was observed 3x a years, but in the MK, it will once a year according to Zechariah 14.

    John used 'nations' in chapter 21-12 to describe the mortals who righteous at that time. In every age, since Adam, we always have those who believe and those who prefer sin. No reason to believe this will be different in the MK.


    • Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


    • Rev 21:26 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.


    I have emboldened the outstanding; "they shall BRING honour and glory in it" (NJ). This makes it plain that these nations (the righteous among them) who are allowed to walk in the light of the NJ are not the immortal/spiritual saints who live INSIDE the city. For years, I had grappled with the identity of the nations below. Why do they need healing? I had wondered whether they are the saints/immortals reigning with Jesus? Or, if they are the wicked nations, why would God allow them access to the Tree of Life (ToL)?


    • Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


    But to the glory of God and his gift of discernment, I understood that the nations above are the same in Rev 21:24 & 26! The immortals have no need to be healed of any ailment as sickness and death have nothing on them. But as death, sickness, and disease still reign outside the holy city, it makes sense that the believing among them should receive healing from Jesus should they fall ill until the end of the MK and Throne Judgment when they too, will receive immortality.


    The New Heaven & New Earth (NHNE):


    • Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    • Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    • Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


    Isaiah spoke about the NHNE in conjunction with the millennial age. John too saw it in conjunction with the NJ.


    • Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    • Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    The above passages have led many to erroneously conclude that the NHNE is synonymous with NJ or that both will start at the same time. But is this true? Let's find out through the scriptures. Both Isaiah and John made general statements. We must bear in mind that God inspires/talks his servants on-a-need-to-know-basis. So as these servants didn't tell us when these things will be, it doesn't mean they were hiding it from us. Far from it, God just didn't tell them!


    So both Isaiah and John simply told us what they saw without telling us WHEN they will occur or their order in the scale of things. But before we find out their timeline, let's look for similar general prophecies and their answers.


    • Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    • John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    • John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the dead (the just and the wicked) at the end times. We know for certain that the wicked (that rise into everlasting shame and contempt) and the righteous will not rise at the same time. How do we know that? Paul and John provide the answers. So in 1 Thess 4:16 we learn that the dead in Christ will rise first. In Rev 20:5 John speaks about the first resurrection and in Rev 20:12-13 about the resurrection of the wicked. So from Paul and John, we understand the timescales of Daniel and Jesus Christ' prophesies.

    So when will the NHNE start? Fortunately, Peter told us the fate of the present heaven and earth and when they will be destroyed and this is the first key to the mystery since the new cannot come until the old is made away. In own words:


    • 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.




    • 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.




    • 2 Peter 3: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


    Please pay attention to the emboldened subtexts of Peter's statement above. This H&E we see today have been reserved unto fire against the DAY of JUDGMENT! That is, the same day the ungodly men and those in perdition are judged, ie the GWTJ! And they must be destroyed BEFORE the NHNE replaces them!

    I have argued extensively with some brothers who are adamant that the NHNE starts at the same time with MK and grows according to them to cover the whole earth. They cited Dan 2:35 (the stone that grew and filled the whole earth) as a claim that this prophecy is fulfilled in the NHNE. But the problem with this view is that in Rev 21:1 & 10 respectively saw the NHNE and NJ not only in different visions but as distinct from one another.

    I have often queried those who argue that the NHNE will start from NJ and grow from there to explain where they read in the Bible that only the land and the sky/heaven above Jerusalem will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolved? The earth and its firmaments are one mass. So when Peter says God will destroy the present heaven and earth, I believe it will be instant ie, from the north pole (north) to Argentina in the utmost south, China in the east and USA in the west. I have not found anything in the Bible to suggest it is a gradual process or an exercise that will be repeated several times like those who claim that God will destroy and restore the earth several times.

    My study tells me that the NHNE will be ushered in after the GWTJ.


    1. In 2 Peter 3:7 above, we know that this earth will be destroyed on the day of judgment (GWTJ Rev 20).
    2. Further proof that the NHNE will not start with the MK/NJ, the sea is still around in Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which was in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. The sea here denotes all the bodies of water on earth (the oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, etc).
    3. Since the waters of Noah till date, many have died in the sea and made the waters their resting place. Some were killed on land but thrown into the water, e.g. Osman bin Laden.
    4. As the righteous among them will rise from the waters at the resurrection, so also the wicked at the time of judgment (Rev 20:13).


    In Rev 21:1 John said he saw the NHNE and that the sea was no more. This contrasts with the Throne Judgment where we see the sea release those it held. My point is that the sea is present throughout the 1000 year millennial age, but when the earth and heaven are dissolved after the GWTJ, they are no more.

    But alas, the Brothers who believe the NHNE started from the beginning of the MK disagree. They claim that the sea in Rev 21:1 is not the physical sea in Rev 20:13, but rather symbolic of kingdoms which have been wiped out in the GWTJ. They cited Daniel's visions where we are told that the beast rose from the sea as support that the sea in scripture denotes kingdoms. While the sea in the context of Daniel's vision is inarguably a kingdom(s), the same context does not apply in the reference to the 'sea' in Rev 21:1 and therefore does denotes kingdoms. In Rev 21:3-4 John says that God came down to earth to dwell with us and that death and sorrow are no more. Those against, also claim that God has been on earth since NJ came down and that the 'no death and sorrow' refers to those in the NJ.

    But the context shows that John is talking about life after the Throne Judgment when death and hell have been thrown into the lake of fire. So the no death and sorrow applies to the whole new earth, not just the NJ. Furthermore, to debunk the claim that God came down to earth and reigned with Jesus during the MK. But Paul says:

    1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    The above clearly debunks the assertion that God the Father is on earth during the MK. I have no doubt that they will counter that God doesn't need to be in heaven for Jesus rules on earth and deliver the kingdom to him - but I'll leave it to the reader to decide for themselves. Unfortunately, some of us proclaim that context is the key to every text, but what they really mean is their own 'version' and not necessarily the scriptural context, more so, when that disagrees with their position. This explains why some rely on logic and conjecture (which often is more appealing than the actual scripture)to explain away what they really don't fully understand. And then, they go on to defend it vigorously as if their lives depend on it, even when the tiny voice of their inner spirit is telling them they are wrong.

    In conclusion, the NHNE will be ushered after the GWTJ after this heaven & earth and the elements including the waters and mountains are destroyed. This is the only time fitting for God the Father (who cannot stand sin) to come down and dwell with us. I'm not particularly pulling my hairs about whether the present H&E will be utterly destroyed or merely restored, any of the two is fine by me. It's God's will.









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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My apologies for the length of this exegesis. Normally, I prefer short articles but there's no way to do justice to this important and controversial discourse. Debates about the millennium, NJ and NHNE has been raging for as long as anyone can remember and consequently, opinions and interpretations are numerous as the sand on the shore.

    A recent discussion has prompted me to post my research and study on these topics for review and discussion. Many of us duly acknowledge that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order yet in our interpretation of Rev 20-22, some of us walk inexplicably with our eyes wide open into the error of interpreting the last three chapters as if they are in chronology. Hence, some are seeing several NHNE and mirages.

    My approach is simple. I just assume that every verse in Rev 20-22 is a piece of a jigsaw, which I gather together into a bowl. Next, I lay out a flat table and as one would put the pieces of a jigsaw together to get a clear picture, I begin to put them together to present a concise interpretation and place these three events (MK, NJ, NHNE)in appropriate timescales.

    The Millennial Age & New Jerusalem (NJ):

    We all know this will start after Jesus has returned and defeated the Beasts and his army at Armageddon. They will start at the same time and run concurrently. John sees the NJ descending from heaven.

    Rev 21:10 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high
    mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    From Rev 21:11-22 John describes the beauty of the city. Unlike the wall, Israel built in the West Bank to keep away the Palestinians, the NJ will have 12 gates; 3 each on the east, west, north, and south of the city and guarded by 12 angels. There will be no interlopers or unauthorized persons. But outside the city and the rest of the world, life goes as usual.


    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    The people living outside the NJ will be mandated at the point of punishment to come yearly during the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut 16:16, Zech 14:16-17) at the point of punishment to pay homage to the Lord Jesus and his saints. 60:12). In the OT covenant, the feast of tabernacles was observed 3x a years, but in the MK, it will once a year according to Zechariah 14.

    John used 'nations' in chapter 21-12 to describe the mortals who righteous at that time. In every age, since Adam, we always have those who believe and those who prefer sin. No reason to believe this will be different in the MK.


    • Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


    • Rev 21:26 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.


    I have emboldened the outstanding; "they shall BRING honour and glory in it" (NJ). This makes it plain that these nations (the righteous among them) who are allowed to walk in the light of the NJ are not the immortal/spiritual saints who live INSIDE the city. For years, I had grappled with the identity of the nations below. Why do they need healing? I had wondered whether they are the saints/immortals reigning with Jesus? Or, if they are the wicked nations, why would God allow them access to the Tree of Life (ToL)?


    • Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


    But to the glory of God and his gift of discernment, I understood that the nations above are the same in Rev 21:24 & 26! The immortals have no need to be healed of any ailment as sickness and death have nothing on them. But as death, sickness, and disease still reign outside the holy city, it makes sense that the believing among them should receive healing from Jesus should they fall ill until the end of the MK and Throne Judgment when they too, will receive immortality.


    The New Heaven & New Earth (NHNE):


    • Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    • Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    • Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


    Isaiah spoke about the NHNE in conjunction with the millennial age. John too saw it in conjunction with the NJ.


    • Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    • Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


    The above passages have led many to erroneously conclude that the NHNE is synonymous with NJ or that both will start at the same time. But is this true? Let's find out through the scriptures. Both Isaiah and John made general statements. We must bear in mind that God inspires/talks his servants on-a-need-to-know-basis. So as these servants didn't tell us when these things will be, it doesn't mean they were hiding it from us. Far from it, God just didn't tell them!


    So both Isaiah and John simply told us what they saw without telling us WHEN they will occur or their order in the scale of things. But before we find out their timeline, let's look for similar general prophecies and their answers.


    • Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    • John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    • John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of the resurrection of the dead (the just and the wicked) at the end times. We know for certain that the wicked (that rise into everlasting shame and contempt) and the righteous will not rise at the same time. How do we know that? Paul and John provide the answers. So in 1 Thess 4:16 we learn that the dead in Christ will rise first. In Rev 20:5 John speaks about the first resurrection and in Rev 20:12-13 about the resurrection of the wicked. So from Paul and John, we understand the timescales of Daniel and Jesus Christ' prophesies.

    So when will the NHNE start? Fortunately, Peter told us the fate of the present heaven and earth and when they will be destroyed and this is the first key to the mystery since the new cannot come until the old is made away. In own words:


    • 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.




    • 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.




    • 2 Peter 3: Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,


    Please pay attention to the emboldened subtexts of Peter's statement above. This H&E we see today have been reserved unto fire against the DAY of JUDGMENT! That is, the same day the ungodly men and those in perdition are judged, ie the GWTJ! And they must be destroyed BEFORE the NHNE replaces them!

    I have argued extensively with some brothers who are adamant that the NHNE starts at the same time with MK and grows according to them to cover the whole earth. They cited Dan 2:35 (the stone that grew and filled the whole earth) as a claim that this prophecy is fulfilled in the NHNE. But the problem with this view is that in Rev 21:1 & 10 respectively saw the NHNE and NJ not only in different visions but as distinct from one another.

    I have often queried those who argue that the NHNE will start from NJ and grow from there to explain where they read in the Bible that only the land and the sky/heaven above Jerusalem will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolved? The earth and its firmaments are one mass. So when Peter says God will destroy the present heaven and earth, I believe it will be instant ie, from the north pole (north) to Argentina in the utmost south, China in the east and USA in the west. I have not found anything in the Bible to suggest it is a gradual process or an exercise that will be repeated several times like those who claim that God will destroy and restore the earth several times.

    My study tells me that the NHNE will be ushered in after the GWTJ.


    1. In 2 Peter 3:7 above, we know that this earth will be destroyed on the day of judgment (GWTJ Rev 20).
    2. Further proof that the NHNE will not start with the MK/NJ, the sea is still around in Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which was in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. The sea here denotes all the bodies of water on earth (the oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, etc).
    3. Since the waters of Noah till date, many have died in the sea and made the waters their resting place. Some were killed on land but thrown into the water, e.g. Osman bin Laden.
    4. As the righteous among them will rise from the waters at the resurrection, so also the wicked at the time of judgment (Rev 20:13).


    In Rev 21:1 John said he saw the NHNE and that the sea was no more. This contrasts with the Throne Judgment where we see the sea release those it held. My point is that the sea is present throughout the 1000 year millennial age, but when the earth and heaven are dissolved after the GWTJ, they are no more.

    But alas, the Brothers who believe the NHNE started from the beginning of the MK disagree. They claim that the sea in Rev 21:1 is not the physical sea in Rev 20:13, but rather symbolic of kingdoms which have been wiped out in the GWTJ. They cited Daniel's visions where we are told that the beast rose from the sea as support that the sea in scripture denotes kingdoms. While the sea in the context of Daniel's vision is inarguably a kingdom(s), the same context does not apply in the reference to the 'sea' in Rev 21:1 and therefore does denotes kingdoms. In Rev 21:3-4 John says that God came down to earth to dwell with us and that death and sorrow are no more. Those against, also claim that God has been on earth since NJ came down and that the 'no death and sorrow' refers to those in the NJ.

    But the context shows that John is talking about life after the Throne Judgment when death and hell have been thrown into the lake of fire. So the no death and sorrow applies to the whole new earth, not just the NJ. Furthermore, to debunk the claim that God came down to earth and reigned with Jesus during the MK. But Paul says:

    1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    The above clearly debunks the assertion that God the Father is on earth during the MK. I have no doubt that they will counter that God doesn't need to be in heaven for Jesus rules on earth and deliver the kingdom to him - but I'll leave it to the reader to decide for themselves. Unfortunately, some of us proclaim that context is the key to every text, but what they really mean is their own 'version' and not necessarily the scriptural context, more so, when that disagrees with their position. This explains why some rely on logic and conjecture (which often is more appealing than the actual scripture)to explain away what they really don't fully understand. And then, they go on to defend it vigorously as if their lives depend on it, even when the tiny voice of their inner spirit is telling them they are wrong.

    In conclusion, the NHNE will be ushered after the GWTJ after this heaven & earth and the elements including the waters and mountains are destroyed. This is the only time fitting for God the Father (who cannot stand sin) to come down and dwell with us. I'm not particularly pulling my hairs about whether the present H&E will be utterly destroyed or merely restored, any of the two is fine by me. It's God's will.









    The NHNE and NJ are not the same thing. Most of us agree about that. What you don't seem to be grasping though, post the 2nd coming, there can't be a NHNE without there also being a NJ. Nor can there be a NJ without there also being a NHNE, post the 2nd coming. The context of Revelation 21-22 involves the NJ in the NHNE and the nations outside of the NJ. The context of Revelation 21-22 doesn't involve the NJ without a NHNE. Nor does it involve a NHNE without a NJ.


    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Verse 2 doesn't chronologically precede verse 1.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    The following is the fulfillment of this.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    The day of the Lord doesn't come as a thief in the night 1000 years post the 2nd coming. The day of the Lord is instead connected with the 2nd coming.



    2 Peter 3:10 is the fulfillment of Matthew 24:34-36.


    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35)...in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise...the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).

    But of that day and hour knoweth no man(Matthew 24:36)....But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night(2 Peter 3:10)

    It can't get much clearer than this IMO.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Just to add to divaD's post, which I agree with is this error:

    I have often queried those who argue that the NHNE will start from NJ and grow from there to explain where they read in the Bible that only the land and the sky/heaven above Jerusalem will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolved? The earth and its firmaments are one mass. So when Peter says God will destroy the present heaven and earth, I believe it will be instant ie, from the north pole (north) to Argentina in the utmost south, China in the east and USA in the west. I have not found anything in the Bible to suggest it is a gradual process or an exercise that will be repeated several times like those who claim that God will destroy and restore the earth several times.
    You seem to believe the whole world is DESTROYED by fire.
    It is this error alone which causes you to refuse to acknowledge that WITHIN your very quotes the NJ is in the NHNE. There is no NHNE without the NJ and there is no NJ without the NHNE.
    Your idea I think stems from Noah's flood being a destruction of water, and thatthe covenant made after is that there will not be a future flood, so this allows for a future destruction by fire.
    Will the heavens be destroyed by fire?
    Well were they destroyed by water previously? Nope.
    So immediately you have a different picture.
    What is being burnt up and removed are ALL the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, and all the works of Man and the Dominion of Man.
    This is what is removed.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The NHNE and NJ are not the same thing. Most of us agree about that. What you don't seem to be grasping though, post the 2nd coming, there can't be a NHNE without there also being a NJ. Nor can there be a NJ without there also being a NHNE, post the 2nd coming. The context of Revelation 21-22 involves the NJ in the NHNE and the nations outside of the NJ. The context of Revelation 21-22 doesn't involve the NJ without a NHNE. Nor does it involve a NHNE without a NJ.


    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Verse 2 doesn't chronologically precede verse 1.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    The following is the fulfillment of this.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    The day of the Lord doesn't come as a thief in the night 1000 years post the 2nd coming. The day of the Lord is instead connected with the 2nd coming.



    2 Peter 3:10 is the fulfillment of Matthew 24:34-36.


    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35)...in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise...the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).

    But of that day and hour knoweth no man(Matthew 24:36)....But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night(2 Peter 3:10)

    It can't get much clearer than this IMO.
    It's a matter of opinion. How do you explain the presence of the sea 1000 years after the NHNE is supposed to have been around and its absence in Rev 21:1? How do you prove that God the Father is on earth during the millennium?

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Just to add to divaD's post, which I agree with is this error:



    You seem to believe the whole world is DESTROYED by fire.
    It is this error alone which causes you to refuse to acknowledge that WITHIN your very quotes the NJ is in the NHNE. There is no NHNE without the NJ and there is no NJ without the NHNE.
    Your idea I think stems from Noah's flood being a destruction of water, and thatthe covenant made after is that there will not be a future flood, so this allows for a future destruction by fire.
    Will the heavens be destroyed by fire?
    Well were they destroyed by water previously? Nope.
    So immediately you have a different picture.
    What is being burnt up and removed are ALL the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, and all the works of Man and the Dominion of Man.
    This is what is removed.
    No, I never said that the world will be destroyed by fire. That's your misinterpretation of what I said. On the contrary, Peter said that the 'firmaments' will be destroyed. Not principalities and powers in the heavenlies. Don't know where you got that anyway?

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    No, I never said that the world will be destroyed by fire. That's your misinterpretation of what I said. On the contrary, Peter said that the 'firmaments' will be destroyed. Not principalities and powers in the heavenlies. Don't know where you got that anyway?
    The word firmaments is also translated as heavens.
    It is the associated word with where God dwells.
    Is the heaven where God dwells going to be destroyed by fire?

    I am dealing with what you are quoting and seem to be claiming. In that passage it mentions the earth as well as the heavens.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The word firmaments is also translated as heavens.
    It is the associated word with where God dwells.
    Is the heaven where God dwells going to be destroyed by fire?

    I am dealing with what you are quoting and seem to be claiming. In that passage it mentions the earth as well as the heavens.
    Now I know you are just out to preserve your position at all costs because you keep using nuances to create confusion. In your post that I responded to, you accused me of saying that the whole WORLD will be destroyed. Something I never said. Peter said that the firmaments will be burnt up by fire. The firmaments refer to the sky above, not the third heaven where God resides. The present earth will be transformed, the rivers and seas will be no more. This is what John saw in Rev 20:11.

    Your assertion that the firmaments are principalities and powers is unscriptural.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Now I know you are just out to preserve your position at all costs because you keep using nuances to create confusion. In your post that I responded to, you accused me of saying that the whole WORLD will be destroyed. Something I never said. Peter said that the firmaments will be burnt up by fire. The firmaments refer to the sky above, not the third heaven where God resides. The present earth will be transformed, the rivers and seas will be no more. This is what John saw in Rev 20:11.
    I am just using the verses you quoted.
    Let me quote them and underline the words and then you tell me it doesn't speak about the world:
    2Pe 3:10* But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    KJV

    Not sure why IF you quote 2 Peter 3:10 that you can justify ignoring part of the verse you quoted at me?
    Note it doesn't say that the heavens are burnt up.

    Your assertion that the firmaments are principalities and powers is unscriptural.
    Not at all:
    Eph 6:12* For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
    ESV

    Where does Paul state these powers are? In the heavenlies:
    G2032
    ἐπουράνιος
    epouranios
    ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
    From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

    So it is the heavenlies which will pass in a roar for this is the place where the spiritual forces of darkness are.

    This passage is NOT about a PHYSICAL destruction of the sky and the land.
    It is about a SPIRITUAL change in the heavenlies and the dominions and works of Man.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    My

    This marks the end of the millennium....,


    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.




    Final judgment and destruction of all the ungodly then takes place. ( see 2pet 3 )



    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.



    So after the Judgment, we the bride ( city )inherit a NHNE, free from death and all those other nasties.

    Rev 21
    21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”




    Jesus put it this way in Matt 25...,

    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    My

    This marks the end of the millennium....,


    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.




    Final judgment and destruction of all the ungodly then takes place. ( see 2pet 3 )



    5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.



    So after the Judgment, we the bride ( city )inherit a NHNE, free from death and all those other nasties.

    Rev 21
    21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”




    Jesus put it this way in Matt 25...,

    Matt 25
    31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

    41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
    I'll add my two cents and agree with you

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    The new Jerusalem definitely is a post-Millennial event associated with the new heavens and a new earth. It doesn't come to earth until Christ's future Millennial reign is over, including God's GWT Judgment with the destruction of the wicked and death into the "lake of fire". We should never confuse those two times, for the wicked will not see God's Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.

    However, as shown in Ezekiel 47, the sanctuary during Christ's Millennial reign will flow God's River out from under the threshold, healing the waters on earth it comes into contact with. And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing its fruits that will not be consumed, and the leaves are for the healing of the nations. This begins manifesting on earth with Christ's Millennial reign. This view we are shown in Rev.22:14-15, which is about the time of Christ's Millennial reign with the wicked still existing in the "outer darkness" outside the gates of the beloved city on earth will the saints will be.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    The new Jerusalem definitely is a post-Millennial event associated with the new heavens and a new earth. It doesn't come to earth until Christ's future Millennial reign is over, including God's GWT Judgment with the destruction of the wicked and death into the "lake of fire". We should never confuse those two times, for the wicked will not see God's Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth.
    Incorrect.
    Read Isaiah 65 & 66:
    Isa 65:17* “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*

    Isa 66:22* “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.*
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*

    This clearly speaks of an NHNE.
    When does this happen? BEFORE the GWToJ or AFTER?
    Think carefully before answering.

    However, as shown in Ezekiel 47, the sanctuary during Christ's Millennial reign will flow God's River out from under the threshold, healing the waters on earth it comes into contact with. And on either side of that River are the many trees bearing its fruits that will not be consumed, and the leaves are for the healing of the nations. This begins manifesting on earth with Christ's Millennial reign. This view we are shown in Rev.22:14-15, which is about the time of Christ's Millennial reign with the wicked still existing in the "outer darkness" outside the gates of the beloved city on earth will the saints will be.
    Have you paid attention to what is stated in the start of Rev 22?
    Rev 22:1* Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb*
    Rev 22:2* through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Same river, same tree of life with healing for the nations.
    What nations will there be AFTER the GWToJ?

    I am PreMil Post-Trib and scripture is very clear. There is an NHNE when Jesus returns. This is indisputable from scripture.
    What some try to argue is that there is ANOTHER NHNE after the MK, once they recognise this FACT.
    The simple Average Joe understanding is that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns, but grows UNTIL the whole world has been renewed.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect.
    Read Isaiah 65 & 66:
    Isa 65:17* “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.*
    Isa 65:18* But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.*
    Isa 65:19* I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.*

    Isa 66:22* “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.*
    Isa 66:23* From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.*

    This clearly speaks of an NHNE.
    When does this happen? BEFORE the GWToJ or AFTER?
    Think carefully before answering.


    Have you paid attention to what is stated in the start of Rev 22?
    Rev 22:1* Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb*
    Rev 22:2* through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Same river, same tree of life with healing for the nations.
    What nations will there be AFTER the GWToJ?

    I am PreMil Post-Trib and scripture is very clear. There is an NHNE when Jesus returns. This is indisputable from scripture.
    What some try to argue is that there is ANOTHER NHNE after the MK, once they recognise this FACT.
    The simple Average Joe understanding is that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns, but grows UNTIL the whole world has been renewed.
    Those Isaiah passages you quote are for after God's GWT Judgment, after Christ's Millennial reign. Timelines in the books of the prophets can jump around just between one verse, and sometimes within a single verse. Isaiah 61:1-2 is an example, as Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1 and most of 61:2 for His 1st coming, but did not quote the very last 61:2 phrase about the day of vengeance, which is His 2nd coming. Same thing in Zech.9:9-10. Verse 9 is Jesus' 1st coming, and verse 10 is Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Rev.22:14-15 is Millennial timing because the wicked are still existing outside the beloved city gates. After God's GWT Judgment, the wicked will be cast into the "lake of fire".


    Just in the area of the holy land... in God's future Kingdom on earth:

    Isa 19:23-25
    23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

    24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

    25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
    KJV

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    Those Isaiah passages you quote are for after God's GWT Judgment, after Christ's Millennial reign. Timelines in the books of the prophets can jump around just between one verse, and sometimes within a single verse. Isaiah 61:1-2 is an example, as Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1 and most of 61:2 for His 1st coming, but did not quote the very last 61:2 phrase about the day of vengeance, which is His 2nd coming. Same thing in Zech.9:9-10. Verse 9 is Jesus' 1st coming, and verse 10 is Jesus' 2nd coming.

    Rev.22:14-15 is Millennial timing because the wicked are still existing outside the beloved city gates. After God's GWT Judgment, the wicked will be cast into the "lake of fire".
    Just in the area of the holy land... in God's future Kingdom on earth:

    Isa 19:23-25
    23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
    24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
    25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
    KJV
    OK you are the first person claiming that Isaiah 65 & 66 is AFTER the GWToJ.
    The problem is that you agree that Rev 22 is MK timing, yet ignore the SAME issue shown in Isaiah 65. Let me highlight TWO verses which show it is DURING the millennium. There are more:
    Isa 65:20* No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.*

    Here we have sinners. Are you claiming there will be sinners AFTER the GWToJ and all of them have been cast into Hell?

    Isa 65:25* The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.
    I like this one myself because it is a verse full of promise about the wolf and the lamb and clearly shows a renewed earth in progress.
    Yet I have underlined a phrase which should make you think of Genesis 3.
    This shows that sin hasn't been fully dealt with and points to a time BEFORE the GWToJ.

    Now prophecy doesn't actually jumped around much. Normally it proceeds in progression EVEN when there are gaps of hundreds or thousands of years.
    Isaiah 61 doesn't go back to BEFORE Jesus coming for example.
    Rev 22 is AFTER the NJ has come down and we are told the NJ comes at the START of the NHNE.
    Now also what is KEY for you to grasp is that you noticed they are outside the beloved city gates. What city gates? That of the NJ.

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    Re: The Millennial Age, New Jerusalem & the NHNE expalined

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    My

    This marks the end of the millennium....,


    Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.





    You are disagreeing with the text then. The following is what marks the end of the millennium.

    Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    Clearly what ends the millennium is the loosing of satan, where satan then has a little season, then after the millennium and his little season, satan is judged and cast into the LOF, followed by the GWTJ. Irregardless when one might be taking the millennium to be, it ends with the loosing of satan for a little season.

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