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Thread: Eph 3.10 thought

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    Eph 3.10 thought

    Eph 3.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I find it interesting that Paul here seems to say that God is using His Church to reveal His wisdom to angels in heaven. If so, we have to wonder where Paul gets this idea? I'd be interested in your views on this. Here are mine...

    Angels are watchers, keepers, and enforcers of God's word. The 1st example we get of angels involved in human affairs is in the Garden of Eden. Satan, an evil angel, tempted Man to transgress God's Law, and angels were supposed to follow, and administer, the Law of God.

    The 2nd example is when God placed cherubim with a flashing sword to prevent Man from returning to the Garden of Eden, to prevent them from eating of the tree of life. They had sinned, and now they were denied access. Apparently angels are watching over God's command to keep Man out of the Garden until God sees fit to restore them.

    And so, angels could not have anticipated how pagan Gentiles could access God's presence in the Old Testament, because the Law of God prohibited them access. The angels were shown, by the Church of Jesus, that a new system was being administered. The system of Grace now replaced the temple of the Law, and the new temple, built on Jesus himself, gave access to pagan Gentiles who repented via a brand new system called Grace.

    This is what was shown the angels through the Church. Somehow Gentiles were circumventing the Law of Moses. The new system of Grace was of great interest to the angels, who had to administer this new system. Your thoughts are welcome...

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Eph 3.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I find it interesting that Paul here seems to say that God is using His Church to reveal His wisdom to angels in heaven. If so, we have to wonder where Paul gets this idea? I'd be interested in your views on this. Here are mine...

    Angels are watchers, keepers, and enforcers of God's word. The 1st example we get of angels involved in human affairs is in the Garden of Eden. Satan, an evil angel, tempted Man to transgress God's Law, and angels were supposed to follow, and administer, the Law of God.

    The 2nd example is when God placed cherubim with a flashing sword to prevent Man from returning to the Garden of Eden, to prevent them from eating of the tree of life. They had sinned, and now they were denied access. Apparently angels are watching over God's command to keep Man out of the Garden until God sees fit to restore them.

    And so, angels could not have anticipated how pagan Gentiles could access God's presence in the Old Testament, because the Law of God prohibited them access. The angels were shown, by the Church of Jesus, that a new system was being administered. The system of Grace now replaced the temple of the Law, and the new temple, built on Jesus himself, gave access to pagan Gentiles who repented via a brand new system called Grace.

    This is what was shown the angels through the Church. Somehow Gentiles were circumventing the Law of Moses. The new system of Grace was of great interest to the angels, who had to administer this new system. Your thoughts are welcome...
    The whole Chapter is connected, and a full review would burst the bounds of a single posting. Most expositors regard verses 2 - 21 as a parenthesis, the thought of verse 1 continuing in 4:1. To expose verse 10, a little background is needed.

    Hebrews 1:2 reveals, "(God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". Now, it would do us good to examine the word rendered "worlds". The word in the Greek is "Aion" which comes from the root word "duration". "Aion" can mean a period of time - an "age", and it is also used in Jewish understanding to indicate the "Messianic" AGE. By extension, it can also mean the earth because it remains forever - for the duration. Young's Literal Translation renders the verse;

    "in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages".

    Now, each student of the Bible has a certain calculation of how many "AGES" there are in scripture. I admit I cannot tell, but my calculation is this:
    1. God made the heaven and earth in good order (Gen.1:1). This is the FIRST AGE. During this age an Angel - Lucifer ruled the earth.
    2. Something happened to cause the earth to become chaotic and God judged this by covering it with water and switching off the lights (Gen.1:2). Then, some undefined time later, God restored the earth to pristine condition in 6 X 24-hour periods. This is the earth's SECOND AGE. During this age there was no rule as chaos reigned.
    3. From the restoration to pristine condition and Adam until Moses, God made man the ruler of this earth (Gen.1:26-28, 9:1-6). This is the THIRD AGE
    4. Once Law was given, and Law was "unto life" (Proverbs 6:23 13:14; Rom.7:10), this was the next AGE - the FOURTH (some call it the age of Law)
    5. But because the flesh of man is irrevocably fallen, Law failed to give Life and Life came in the Form of the Son of God - the FIFTH AGE (some call it the age of grace).
    6. At the end of the age of obtaining Life from the Son of God, He will institute a New Government on earth in which the flesh is replaced by a new body (1st Cor.15:50-51). This is the SIXTH AGE or, as we call it, the Millennial Kingdom of Christ
    7. Now, during the FIFTH age, it is written in the Oracles of God, in Ephesians 2:7, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." This implies that this display is for the SIXTH AGE, AND the SEVENTH and so on. But at least the SEVENTH AGE for "ages" is plural.

    Now for the RULERSHIP - THE GOVERNMENT of the earth the FIRST was an angel - Lucifer - a heavenly being, and the SECOND was mankind. This man was supposed to eat from the Tree of Life and so ingest God and become organically ONE with the Life of God, making him an earthly being with a heavenly nature. But this man refused the Tree of Life and made a league with the Angel - Lucifer - a heavenly being. Thus, the RULERSHIP up until Christ came was by men under the influence and power of a heavenly creature. Then Christ came and offered Israel the Kingdom OF HEAVEN. That is, if they believed in Him, they would have been made partakers of the heavenly nature and, had they made Him King, they would have ruled the earth by heavenly rules. This they refused, and this offer is ripped away from them in Matthew 21:43.

    The New King - Jesus, whom according to our verse Hebrews 1:2 above is Heir, withdraws and starts a New Nation for the purposes of changing the earth's GOVERNMENT. He dies on the cross to set aside the offenses that separate God and man, and presents Himself as a Spirit (Jn.7:39, 14:18), which when believed on, enters a man and gives him the new and heavenly and divine life that is needed to qualify a man to be a king in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth when Christ returns (Jn.3:3-5, 15). The manner of His solving of all problems is then as follows;
    1. Our Lord Jesus becomes a Man and lives a perfect human life
    2. Our Lord Jesus dies a substitutionary death for all men so that sin and sins might be put away and men reconciled to God
    3. Our Lord Jesus resurrects Himself and so becomes the Author of Resurrection Life - the life needed to deal with the corrupt and dead body
    4. Our lord Jesus, via the Spirit, ADDS HIMSELF to men via a New and Heavenly Birth and if He is diligently followed and sought after, will permeate the man and make him like Jesus in character (2nd Cor.3:18)
    5. Our Lord Jesus, by virtue of His position as Seed of Abraham, causes by this New Birth, that the men and women who believe in Him become Heirs to the promises to Abraham concerning the whole earth (Rom.4:13).

    Now, this Lord Jesus Christ, Who Colossians 1:19 tells us, "... it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell", and Colossians 2:9 tells us, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", PLUS the whole human experience above, PLUS becoming the "life giving Spirit" for resurrection (1st Cor.15:45), WHEN ADDED TO MAN ORGANICALLY, is the mysterious and marvelous way that the Church BECOMES THE FITTING NEW GOVERNOR OF THE EARTH.

    The GOVERNMENT of the earth was always to be HEAVENLY. Lucifer and His heavenly principalities vie for RULERSHIP. God and His principalities in heaven vie for the earth's Government. And how does it turn out? The "unsearchable riches" of Christ, infused into men who believe, gives them New Life, transforms them into the image of Christ's character and raises their bodies to be like Christ's glorious Body, IS THE WISDOM OF GOD to reach this goal. Which creature could have thought this up? Which creature would have invested so much in men? Which process could have achieved the goal of making earthly and fallen men heavenly and transformed? What a glorious plan! What a glorious execution! What a terrible price it cost! How all-encompassing it is! How can we fathom the Wisdom of God! Will it not take the AGES to comprehend it?

    The Principalities of heaven can just bow in astounded silence at this exquisite plan and its execution - "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27)

    This is my understanding of Ephesians 3:10.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    There are a lot of verses about angels being interested in what's going on with people on earth. I'll see if I can round them up.

    In your case, in reading the whole chapter, I think the Ephesians 3:10 verse is proving the point of God's "mystery" to the angels. That mystery being, as Paul says in the previous verses, that the Gentiles were going to be included in God's salvation.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Ever hear "angelic conflict"? I don't subscribe to it all, or all the "gap theory", but I do believe there's a lot of truth there.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Eph 3.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I find it interesting that Paul here seems to say that God is using His Church to reveal His wisdom to angels in heaven. If so, we have to wonder where Paul gets this idea? I'd be interested in your views on this. Here are mine...

    Angels are watchers, keepers, and enforcers of God's word. The 1st example we get of angels involved in human affairs is in the Garden of Eden. Satan, an evil angel, tempted Man to transgress God's Law, and angels were supposed to follow, and administer, the Law of God.

    The 2nd example is when God placed cherubim with a flashing sword to prevent Man from returning to the Garden of Eden, to prevent them from eating of the tree of life. They had sinned, and now they were denied access. Apparently angels are watching over God's command to keep Man out of the Garden until God sees fit to restore them.

    And so, angels could not have anticipated how pagan Gentiles could access God's presence in the Old Testament, because the Law of God prohibited them access. The angels were shown, by the Church of Jesus, that a new system was being administered. The system of Grace now replaced the temple of the Law, and the new temple, built on Jesus himself, gave access to pagan Gentiles who repented via a brand new system called Grace.

    This is what was shown the angels through the Church. Somehow Gentiles were circumventing the Law of Moses. The new system of Grace was of great interest to the angels, who had to administer this new system. Your thoughts are welcome...


    what version are you reading?
    this KJV and the meaning is completely the opposite:
    Eph 3:10* To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,*
    Eph 3:11* According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:*


    hence revelation of heavenly things to the church.
    Let there be Light

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Eph 3.10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I find it interesting that Paul here seems to say that God is using His Church to reveal His wisdom to angels in heaven. If so, we have to wonder where Paul gets this idea? I'd be interested in your views on this. Here are mine...
    I think if we're not careful, we can easily take this out of context from what Paul was actually teaching.

    If you read in Ephesians 3 starting from verse 9, Paul was interested in conveying that all men may see what is the fellowship of the mystery of God, which has been hidden in God from the beginning of creation. But in Christ, the principalities and powers in heavenly places "might be known by the church" (or revealed) regarding the manifold wisdom of God (according to the eternal purpose) in Christ whom we have boldness and access by faith.

    Ephesians 3:9-12
    (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    So in other words, through Christ, we have boldness and access to see the manifold wisdom of God through the fellowship of principalities and powers in heavenly places through faith in Christ.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The whole Chapter is connected, and a full review would burst the bounds of a single posting. Most expositors regard verses 2 - 21 as a parenthesis, the thought of verse 1 continuing in 4:1. To expose verse 10, a little background is needed.

    Hebrews 1:2 reveals, "(God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". Now, it would do us good to examine the word rendered "worlds". The word in the Greek is "Aion" which comes from the root word "duration". "Aion" can mean a period of time - an "age", and it is also used in Jewish understanding to indicate the "Messianic" AGE. By extension, it can also mean the earth because it remains forever - for the duration. Young's Literal Translation renders the verse;

    "in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages".

    Now, each student of the Bible has a certain calculation of how many "AGES" there are in scripture. I admit I cannot tell, but my calculation is this:
    1. God made the heaven and earth in good order (Gen.1:1). This is the FIRST AGE. During this age an Angel - Lucifer ruled the earth.
    2. Something happened to cause the earth to become chaotic and God judged this by covering it with water and switching off the lights (Gen.1:2). Then, some undefined time later, God restored the earth to pristine condition in 6 X 24-hour periods. This is the earth's SECOND AGE. During this age there was no rule as chaos reigned.
    3. From the restoration to pristine condition and Adam until Moses, God made man the ruler of this earth (Gen.1:26-28, 9:1-6). This is the THIRD AGE
    4. Once Law was given, and Law was "unto life" (Proverbs 6:23 13:14; Rom.7:10), this was the next AGE - the FOURTH (some call it the age of Law)
    5. But because the flesh of man is irrevocably fallen, Law failed to give Life and Life came in the Form of the Son of God - the FIFTH AGE (some call it the age of grace).
    6. At the end of the age of obtaining Life from the Son of God, He will institute a New Government on earth in which the flesh is replaced by a new body (1st Cor.15:50-51). This is the SIXTH AGE or, as we call it, the Millennial Kingdom of Christ
    7. Now, during the FIFTH age, it is written in the Oracles of God, in Ephesians 2:7, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." This implies that this display is for the SIXTH AGE, AND the SEVENTH and so on. But at least the SEVENTH AGE for "ages" is plural.

    Now for the RULERSHIP - THE GOVERNMENT of the earth the FIRST was an angel - Lucifer - a heavenly being, and the SECOND was mankind. This man was supposed to eat from the Tree of Life and so ingest God and become organically ONE with the Life of God, making him an earthly being with a heavenly nature. But this man refused the Tree of Life and made a league with the Angel - Lucifer - a heavenly being. Thus, the RULERSHIP up until Christ came was by men under the influence and power of a heavenly creature. Then Christ came and offered Israel the Kingdom OF HEAVEN. That is, if they believed in Him, they would have been made partakers of the heavenly nature and, had they made Him King, they would have ruled the earth by heavenly rules. This they refused, and this offer is ripped away from them in Matthew 21:43.

    The New King - Jesus, whom according to our verse Hebrews 1:2 above is Heir, withdraws and starts a New Nation for the purposes of changing the earth's GOVERNMENT. He dies on the cross to set aside the offenses that separate God and man, and presents Himself as a Spirit (Jn.7:39, 14:18), which when believed on, enters a man and gives him the new and heavenly and divine life that is needed to qualify a man to be a king in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth when Christ returns (Jn.3:3-5, 15). The manner of His solving of all problems is then as follows;
    1. Our Lord Jesus becomes a Man and lives a perfect human life
    2. Our Lord Jesus dies a substitutionary death for all men so that sin and sins might be put away and men reconciled to God
    3. Our Lord Jesus resurrects Himself and so becomes the Author of Resurrection Life - the life needed to deal with the corrupt and dead body
    4. Our lord Jesus, via the Spirit, ADDS HIMSELF to men via a New and Heavenly Birth and if He is diligently followed and sought after, will permeate the man and make him like Jesus in character (2nd Cor.3:18)
    5. Our Lord Jesus, by virtue of His position as Seed of Abraham, causes by this New Birth, that the men and women who believe in Him become Heirs to the promises to Abraham concerning the whole earth (Rom.4:13).

    Now, this Lord Jesus Christ, Who Colossians 1:19 tells us, "... it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell", and Colossians 2:9 tells us, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", PLUS the whole human experience above, PLUS becoming the "life giving Spirit" for resurrection (1st Cor.15:45), WHEN ADDED TO MAN ORGANICALLY, is the mysterious and marvelous way that the Church BECOMES THE FITTING NEW GOVERNOR OF THE EARTH.

    The GOVERNMENT of the earth was always to be HEAVENLY. Lucifer and His heavenly principalities vie for RULERSHIP. God and His principalities in heaven vie for the earth's Government. And how does it turn out? The "unsearchable riches" of Christ, infused into men who believe, gives them New Life, transforms them into the image of Christ's character and raises their bodies to be like Christ's glorious Body, IS THE WISDOM OF GOD to reach this goal. Which creature could have thought this up? Which creature would have invested so much in men? Which process could have achieved the goal of making earthly and fallen men heavenly and transformed? What a glorious plan! What a glorious execution! What a terrible price it cost! How all-encompassing it is! How can we fathom the Wisdom of God! Will it not take the AGES to comprehend it?

    The Principalities of heaven can just bow in astounded silence at this exquisite plan and its execution - "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27)

    This is my understanding of Ephesians 3:10.
    I certainly enjoy your organized style of laying out a comprehensive understanding. I don't agree with all of it, but it does serve to bring out a number of Christian elements, important with respect to the matter I refer to.

    I won't bother detailing some of the smaller issues that are more controversial, but I wish to consider how your explanation relates to my question. The rule of Lucifer on earth is in direct conflict with God's plan to give Christians rule over the earth. How then does the Church display the "wisdom of God" to heavenly angels?

    Your narrative explains God's plan, but how does the Church make this plan known to the angels? Is it simply by living out Christianity? Is it by casting out demons?

    Your argument is that there is this conflict in *government.* How does the Church make this government known at present?

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    There are a lot of verses about angels being interested in what's going on with people on earth. I'll see if I can round them up.

    In your case, in reading the whole chapter, I think the Ephesians 3:10 verse is proving the point of God's "mystery" to the angels. That mystery being, as Paul says in the previous verses, that the Gentiles were going to be included in God's salvation.
    Yes, it's about the inclusion of the Gentile nations in with Israel as "God's People." The Law prohibited them from entry under that system. The introduction of a new system, through Christ, is the "mystery" Paul is talking about. It is interesting that Paul says God uses the "Church" to reveal this mystery to the angels.

    So the question is, how does the Church reveal this to angels, and what is the specific message we're delivering? And what is the role of the angels in this?

    The Church obviously isn't communicating directly with angels. But we do communicate the *truth* of this mystery. It may be the display of our freedoms with respect to the Law of God. Or it may be the display of a renewed relationship with God on a permanent basis. I just don't find much conversation about this in Scriptures, or I'm simply not connecting them?

    We do hear that angels "minister." Therefore, there is a job angels do, with respect to men and the earth. My supposition, as indicated, is that they impose whatever system God has in place. The Law was apparently ministered, or enforced, by angels. They may be instruments of judgment, or perhaps even judges, of a kind?

    Anyway, if you look at a number of relating passages, and discern a particular pattern in this regard, I'll appreciate it! Thanks.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Ever hear "angelic conflict"? I don't subscribe to it all, or all the "gap theory", but I do believe there's a lot of truth there.
    Yes, I find the "gap theory" interesting, too. And like you I don't completely subscribe to it, but think there's some truth in it.

    Are you talking about the "angel conflict" in the book of Revelation, ch. 12? I also see "angel conflict" in the book of Daniel. It's maddeningly little to go on, but God apparently finds it sufficient for us to know.

    Angels appear throughout the Scriptures, but on the periphery, and without much detail. Therefore, it is an important subject, but maybe not something we need to focus too much upon, with the attendant danger of tending towards the adoration of angels.

    There is also the possibility that evil angels may disguise themselves as good angels, and lead us astray. There is nothing wrong with communication with angels. But it seems to be rare, and not something we can engage in at will.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    what version are you reading?
    this KJV and the meaning is completely the opposite:
    Eph 3:10* To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,*
    Eph 3:11* According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:*


    hence revelation of heavenly things to the church.
    I'm reading your version the same way as my version reads?

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I think if we're not careful, we can easily take this out of context from what Paul was actually teaching.

    If you read in Ephesians 3 starting from verse 9, Paul was interested in conveying that all men may see what is the fellowship of the mystery of God, which has been hidden in God from the beginning of creation. But in Christ, the principalities and powers in heavenly places "might be known by the church" (or revealed) regarding the manifold wisdom of God (according to the eternal purpose) in Christ whom we have boldness and access by faith.

    Ephesians 3:9-12
    (9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    (10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    (11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
    (12) In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

    So in other words, through Christ, we have boldness and access to see the manifold wisdom of God through the fellowship of principalities and powers in heavenly places through faith in Christ.
    I suppose it's possible I'm reading it wrong, but right now I think I'm right. I should probably consult the commentaries?

    We just touched on this in our Sunday Adult Bible Study, and I hoped to get a few thoughts from some of you, with the assumption that I was reading it right. So I'll do further investigation, to be sure I'm reading it right. Thanks.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I certainly enjoy your organized style of laying out a comprehensive understanding. I don't agree with all of it, but it does serve to bring out a number of Christian elements, important with respect to the matter I refer to.

    I won't bother detailing some of the smaller issues that are more controversial, but I wish to consider how your explanation relates to my question. The rule of Lucifer on earth is in direct conflict with God's plan to give Christians rule over the earth. How then does the Church display the "wisdom of God" to heavenly angels?

    Your narrative explains God's plan, but how does the Church make this plan known to the angels? Is it simply by living out Christianity? Is it by casting out demons?

    Your argument is that there is this conflict in *government.* How does the Church make this government known at present?
    Ephesians 3:10; "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God".

    "principality": noun. "a state ruled by a prince".
    "power": Gk - exousia. noun. "a force", "a competency", "a mastery" "an authority", "a jurisdiction"

    The minute "principalities and powers" are mentioned, the Kingdom is the subject. Since the earth was in existence, it is under the "jurisdiction" of somebody. So let us see the "princes" and their results:-
    1. Lucifer - heavenly - failed and laid the earth waste
    2. Adam - earthly- made a league with Lucifer - failed
    3. Lucifer via the Gentiles - heavenly mingled with earthly - earth is cursed - failure
    4. Israel - "mighty men of valor" but earthly - made a league with the Serpent - failed
    5. Jesus Christ - heavenly - success on a Personal level but rejected by men
    6. Weak men (the Church) infused with the heavenly nature of Jesus and transformed into the earthly humanity of Jesus - SUCCESS (in the Millennium) and FOREVER AFTER!

    It would normally be accepted that if God wanted to institute the Kingdom of Heaven (on earth), He would have used the loyal angels. ⅔ of the angels remained faithful to God, and are not angels greater than men? Why not use them? Is that not wise? But Hebrews 2:5 dashes that idea; "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak" It proved problematic when the last, and greatest of angels ruled. The wisdom of God is not creatures of great power and beauty. Points 1 - 5 show the creature, part heavenly and part earthly, in their own power. The last point shows the Wisdom of God in establishing an everlasting and equitable KINGDOM by taking the weak and putting them IN Christ and Christ IN them. 1st Corinthians 1:22-31 say, concerning the Church;

    22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


    The principalities and powers of heaven must have had misgivings when God chose the members of the Church. "Shall we not have the wisdom of Solomon ruling?" Shall we not have the like of Samson as the police force?" "Shall we not have Michael and his angels as the army?" God at first seems UN-wise. The Gentiles (Greeks) think this matter of a Carpenter's son without money and a sword as "foolishness". The Jews, "mighty men of valor", ask for a sign to give direction. But God has chosen the weak, foolish, base, despised, beggarly and poor, and infused them with His Son's nature, both divine and human .... AND THIS IS THE SUCCESS STORY. What wisdom!
    Last edited by Walls; Nov 8th 2018 at 04:03 PM. Reason: correction of wrong word used

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Are you talking about the "angel conflict" in the book of Revelation, ch. 12?
    No. GotQuestions.org
    "To show that Satan’s claim of God’s unfairness was baseless, God offered proof of His eminent justice. He reformed the earth and created another, inferior race of beings (humans) who were like the angels in that they had a free will."


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Angels appear throughout the Scriptures, but on the periphery, and without much detail. Therefore, it is an important subject, but maybe not something we need to focus too much upon
    Well if Paul was saying (to put it another way) the righteousness of God is proven by the church in Christ, it is very much in focus.

    Angels who could see, rebelled and refused to trust God while humans who were created a little lower than angels and cannot see, believe and and trust God. The angels are without excuse, and they are being shown the manifold wisdom of God through the purpose of God in Christ.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Ephesians 3:10; "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God".

    "principality": noun. "a state ruled by a prince".
    "power": Gk - exousia. noun. "a force", "a competency", "a mastery" "an authority", "a jurisdiction"

    The minute "principalities and powers" are mentioned, the Kingdom is the subject. Since the earth was in existence, it is under the "jurisdiction" of somebody. So let us see the "princes" and their results:-
    1. Lucifer - heavenly - failed and laid the earth waste
    2. Adam - earthly- made a league with Lucifer - failed
    3. Lucifer via the Gentiles - heavenly mingled with earthly - earth is cursed - failure
    4. Israel - "mighty men of valor" but earthly - made a league with the Serpent - failed
    5. Jesus Christ - heavenly - success on a Personal level but rejected by men
    6. Weak men (the Church) infused with the heavenly nature of Jesus and transformed into the earthly humanity of Jesus - SUCCESS (in the Millennium) and FOREVER AFTER!

    It would normally be accepted that if God wanted to institute the Kingdom of Heaven (on earth), He would have used the loyal angels. ⅔ of the angels remained faithful to God, and are not angels greater than men? Why not use them? Is that not wise? But Hebrews 2:5 dashes that idea; "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world ("oikonomia" - Gk.*) to come, whereof we speak" It proved problematic when the last, and greatest of angels ruled. The wisdom of God is not creatures of great power and beauty. Points 1 - 5 show the creature, part heavenly and part earthly, in their own power. The last point shows the Wisdom of God in establishing an everlasting and equitable KINGDOM by taking the weak and putting them IN Christ and Christ IN them. 1st Corinthians 1:22-31 say, concerning the Church;

    22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


    The principalities and powers of heaven must have had misgivings when God chose the members of the Church. "Shall we not have the wisdom of Solomon ruling?" Shall we not have the like of Samson as the police force?" "Shall we not have Michael and his angels as the army?" God at first seems UN-wise. The Gentiles (Greeks) think this matter of a Carpenter's son without money and a sword as "foolishness". The Jews, "mighty men of valor", ask for a sign to give direction. But God has chosen the weak, foolish, base, despised, beggarly and poor, and infused them with His Son's nature, both divine and human .... AND THIS IS THE SUCCESS STORY. What wisdom!

    * "Oikonomia" (Greek) means "household management". God, in His wisdom, gives the management of the earth to the Church, not angels.
    I really don't have a basis for belief that Lucifer ruled the world at the beginning of the creation of the earth. There is the fact that Paul viewed him as the "god of this world." So that may be. I just don't have any real narrative prior to the time God created Man. I would prefer to see Satan as a ruler in heaven, and yet not a legitimate imposer of sin upon the earth.

    So like you I've kind of filled in the blanks with my own imagined scenario, piecing together what I can from the Scriptures on this subject. I tend to see Man has having been given the earth from the very beginning, with Satan already having fallen before the creation of Man, or at the very least, from the beginning.

    Nothing in the Scriptures indicate Satan was jealous of Man having dominion. It is simply that Satan rebelled against God Himself, and opposed His word on earth, and apparently in heaven, as well.

    I do agree with you that it is strange that the earth was given to Man. It makes sense to me that God would give this earth to creatures who could fall and be redeemed, whereas as far as we know the angels that fell were not redeemed.

    So the earth appears to reflect God's ability to reconcile things that have gone astray in the universe. And He used Man to show this, as opposed to the angels, who initiated the failure in the universe.

    Perhaps this is the "wisdom of God" shown through Man to the angels? Here is God's way of fixing a space in the universe, in which waywardness is discarded, and repentance is rewarded. Man is portrayed is perhaps weaker than the angels. And yet we are shown to be humble in our frailty, rising up against corrupt influences that seek to take advantage of our vulnerability.

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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I really don't have a basis for belief that Lucifer ruled the world at the beginning of the creation of the earth. There is the fact that Paul viewed him as the "god of this world." So that may be. I just don't have any real narrative prior to the time God created Man. I would prefer to see Satan as a ruler in heaven, and yet not a legitimate imposer of sin upon the earth.

    So like you I've kind of filled in the blanks with my own imagined scenario, piecing together what I can from the Scriptures on this subject. I tend to see Man has having been given the earth from the very beginning, with Satan already having fallen before the creation of Man, or at the very least, from the beginning.

    Nothing in the Scriptures indicate Satan was jealous of Man having dominion. It is simply that God rebelled against God Himself, and opposed His word on earth, and apparently in heaven, as well.

    I do agree with you that it is strange that the earth was given to Man. It makes sense to me that God would give this earth to creatures who could fall and be redeemed, whereas as far as we know the angels that fell were not redeemed.

    So the earth appears to reflect God's ability to reconcile things that have gone astray in the universe. And He used Man to show this, as opposed to the angels, who initiated the failure in the universe.

    Perhaps this is the "wisdom of God" shown through Man to the angels? Here is God's way of fixing a space in the universe, in which waywardness is discarded, and repentance is rewarded. Man is portrayed is perhaps weaker than the angels. And yet we are shown to be humble in our frailty, rising up against corrupt influences that seek to take advantage of our vulnerability.
    Your answer is quite shocking for a Christian (for you must have admitted this to be able to post here). This sentence especially:

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It is simply that God rebelled against God Himself, and opposed His word on earth, and apparently in heaven, as well.
    However, ignoring things like this, here are the indicators of Satan being first "prince" of the earth.
    • Job 38:4-7 shows a sequence of creation. Heaven first, then the angels, and then the earth.
    • Isaiah 45:18, Job 38:4-7 and 1st Corinthians 14:33 show that the earth was not created in a chaos
    • The literal rendering of Genesis 1:2 is "But it came to pass that the earth became a tohu-bohu ... ." This shows that something that was one way underwent a change
    • Isaiah 14:12-17 accuses Lucifer of "laying the earth to waste". No other man or angel has dome this in the rest of the Bible
    • Lucifer is named by our Lord, during His ministry, as "Prince of this world"
    • Lucifer, when tempting Jesus in Luke 4:5-6 claimed authority over the earth and its kingdoms and this was accepted by our Lord Jesus
    • Lucifer has the power to empower the Beast for universal rule
    • Our Lord Jesus did not object when Beelzebub was named chief of the demons

    Next, the objection that God should not create angels and men who can fail is contrary to God's purpose with creation. In Romans 1:20 we are informed; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." That is, the creation shows the things of God and God has the ability to choose between things and choose between good and evil. His nature prevents Him choosing evil, but He has the ability. So God's intelligent creature, Angels, Man, and wherever the Demons came from, in order to display God, must have the ability to choose. God has the animals who are instinctive creatures, and He has His intelligent creatures, angels, man and the demons. The latter, in showing God to to extent of "being in His image and likeness", can choose.

    Returning to the subject of your OP and Ephesians 3:10, it is clear that the intelligent creatures, even when made, like Lucifer, the "sum of wisdom" (Ezek.28:12), and Solomon, the wisest man ever, will fail when they do anything independent of God. So God displays His wisdom by taking the weakest and basest things, who, when made dependent on God, can scale the heights of achievement. Was this not God's purpose in taking Israel through a wilderness in Deuteronomy 8:1-3? And is this not God's purpose with the Church?

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