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Thread: Eph 3.10 thought

  1. #16
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    No. GotQuestions.org
    "To show that Satan’s claim of God’s unfairness was baseless, God offered proof of His eminent justice. He reformed the earth and created another, inferior race of beings (humans) who were like the angels in that they had a free will."


    Well if Paul was saying (to put it another way) the righteousness of God is proven by the church in Christ, it is very much in focus.

    Angels who could see, rebelled and refused to trust God while humans who were created a little lower than angels and cannot see, believe and and trust God. The angels are without excuse, and they are being shown the manifold wisdom of God through the purpose of God in Christ.
    Ok, thank you. I didn't know about the "Angel Conflict" theory. I've had a similar theory myself, though different in some ways. Again, not a whole lot of info on angels is given us in the Bible. So we have to sort of sift through the references. My view is that angels enforce God's Law in the universe. Man may have been created as an afterthought, following Satan's rebellion, or not. I don't know. What I do agree with you on is that this statement in the Scriptures is important. The difficulty is in understanding is precisely. Perhaps it is sufficient to know that our behavior is a witness in the heavens?

  2. #17

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Ephesians 3:10; "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God".

    "principality": noun. "a state ruled by a prince".
    "power": Gk - exousia. noun. "a force", "a competency", "a mastery" "an authority", "a jurisdiction"

    The minute "principalities and powers" are mentioned, the Kingdom is the subject. Since the earth was in existence, it is under the "jurisdiction" of somebody. So let us see the "princes" and their results:-
    1. Lucifer - heavenly - failed and laid the earth waste
    2. Adam - earthly- made a league with Lucifer - failed
    3. Lucifer via the Gentiles - heavenly mingled with earthly - earth is cursed - failure
    4. Israel - "mighty men of valor" but earthly - made a league with the Serpent - failed
    5. Jesus Christ - heavenly - success on a Personal level but rejected by men
    6. Weak men (the Church) infused with the heavenly nature of Jesus and transformed into the earthly humanity of Jesus - SUCCESS (in the Millennium) and FOREVER AFTER!

    It would normally be accepted that if God wanted to institute the Kingdom of Heaven (on earth), He would have used the loyal angels. ⅔ of the angels remained faithful to God, and are not angels greater than men? Why not use them? Is that not wise? But Hebrews 2:5 dashes that idea; "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world ("oikonomia" - Gk.*) to come, whereof we speak" It proved problematic when the last, and greatest of angels ruled. The wisdom of God is not creatures of great power and beauty. Points 1 - 5 show the creature, part heavenly and part earthly, in their own power. The last point shows the Wisdom of God in establishing an everlasting and equitable KINGDOM by taking the weak and putting them IN Christ and Christ IN them. 1st Corinthians 1:22-31 say, concerning the Church;

    22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."


    The principalities and powers of heaven must have had misgivings when God chose the members of the Church. "Shall we not have the wisdom of Solomon ruling?" Shall we not have the like of Samson as the police force?" "Shall we not have Michael and his angels as the army?" God at first seems UN-wise. The Gentiles (Greeks) think this matter of a Carpenter's son without money and a sword as "foolishness". The Jews, "mighty men of valor", ask for a sign to give direction. But God has chosen the weak, foolish, base, despised, beggarly and poor, and infused them with His Son's nature, both divine and human .... AND THIS IS THE SUCCESS STORY. What wisdom!

    * "Oikonomia" (Greek) means "household management". God, in His wisdom, gives the management of the earth to the Church, not angels.
    A thought.

    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5

    If not the world to come, then which world? Is not the implication thee that some world is under the subjection of angels?

    BTW I like your posts on this subject. I will try and post a little more later concerning 3:10.

  3. #18
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your answer is quite shocking for a Christian (for you must have admitted this to be able to post here). This sentence especially..
    Brother, I've been wiped out lately, and miscommunicated. I've corrected the error now.
    I meant to say that Satan merely opposed God, and was not jealous of Man's place on the earth. After all, he ruled someplace in heaven, and earth was only one space within the universe.

    God's word gave the earth to Man, and Satan chose to oppose God's word, trying to make Man a servant of his own. That is, he wasn't wanting for space in the universe. But he did wish to have followers of his own, along with the angels who fell with him.

    Sorry 'bout that!

  4. #19
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your answer is quite shocking for a Christian (for you must have admitted this to be able to post here). This sentence especially:



    However, ignoring things like this, here are the indicators of Satan being first "prince" of the earth.
    • Job 38:4-7 shows a sequence of creation. Heaven first, then the angels, and then the earth.
    • Isaiah 45:18, Job 38:4-7 and 1st Corinthians 14:33 show that the earth was not created in a chaos
    • The literal rendering of Genesis 1:2 is "But it came to pass that the earth became a tohu-bohu ... ." This shows that something that was one way underwent a change
    • Isaiah 14:12-17 accuses Lucifer of "laying the earth to waste". No other man or angel has dome this in the rest of the Bible
    • Lucifer is named by our Lord, during His ministry, as "Prince of this world"
    • Lucifer, when tempting Jesus in Luke 4:5-6 claimed authority over the earth and its kingdoms and this was accepted by our Lord Jesus
    • Lucifer has the power to empower the Beast for universal rule
    • Our Lord Jesus did not object when Beelzebub was named chief of the demons

    Next, the objection that God should not create angels and men who can fail is contrary to God's purpose with creation. In Romans 1:20 we are informed; "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." That is, the creation shows the things of God and God has the ability to choose between things and choose between good and evil. His nature prevents Him choosing evil, but He has the ability. So God's intelligent creature, Angels, Man, and wherever the Demons came from, in order to display God, must have the ability to choose. God has the animals who are instinctive creatures, and He has His intelligent creatures, angels, man and the demons. The latter, in showing God to to extent of "being in His image and likeness", can choose.

    Returning to the subject of your OP and Ephesians 3:10, it is clear that the intelligent creatures, even when made, like Lucifer, the "sum of wisdom" (Ezek.28:12), and Solomon, the wisest man ever, will fail when they do anything independent of God. So God displays His wisdom by taking the weakest and basest things, who, when made dependent on God, can scale the heights of achievement. Was this not God's purpose in taking Israel through a wilderness in Deuteronomy 8:1-3? And is this not God's purpose with the Church?
    I do think you're right about God taking humble things and exposing the sin of greater things. That appears to be a theme in the Scriptures. Thanks!

  5. #20

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Originally posted by randyk
    I find it interesting that Paul here seems to say that God is using His Church to reveal His wisdom to angels in heaven.
    I think the "principalities and powers" Paul is referring to could be the elders in the church, who then instruct the church.

    that ye...may be able to comprehend...Eph.3:17-18

  6. #21
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Perhaps it is sufficient to know that our behavior is a witness in the heavens?
    Yes, I think that was pretty much Paul's point.

  7. #22

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    I believe to be the better understanding: RSV that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

    Why?

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:22

    Eph 3:8-11 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by (throught) the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    What is the, "principalities and powers in the heavenlies," learning through the church, the firstfruit? James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


    Eph 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: < Through the church

    the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known

    V 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

  8. #23
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I believe to be the better understanding: RSV that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

    Why?

    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1 Peter 3:22
    Wow, that's powerful! In my view, then, the Church is demonstrating to angels that they can no longer bar men from eternal life, despite their sin. There is a sacrifice in heaven that removes our guilt when we accept Christ as the substitute for our own carnal human life.

    In other words, the angels, who once ministered by the Law of Moses, must now bow before Christ and his redemption. At least that may be what we're showing angels?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho
    Eph 3:8-11 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by (throught) the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    What is the, "principalities and powers in the heavenlies," learning through the church, the firstfruit? James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    Eph 1:3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: < Through the church

    the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known

    V 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

  9. #24

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Originally posted by percho
    I believe to be the better understanding: RSV that through the church
    Or "throughout" the church, which would make the principalities and powers "in heavenly places" overseeing believers, like the apostles.

  10. #25
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    A thought.

    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5

    If not the world to come, then which world? Is not the implication thee that some world is under the subjection of angels?

    BTW I like your posts on this subject. I will try and post a little more later concerning 3:10.
    Thanks for your kind comments. As to "the world to come", I understand it as follows;

    The Greek word rendered "world" by our eminent translators is, "oikoumene", pronounced "oy-kou-men'-ay". It has as its root the word "oy-keh'-o" (Strongs 361), which means "to dwell". So "oikoumene" basically means , or "the dusty earth", or "the dust part of the earth were men co-inhabit". It was also used in the early times to designated that part of the earth claimed by the Roman Empire. It it is Anglicized into "Ecumenical" - the move by the Roman Church to bring all religions on the earth under their umbrella.

    "To COME" means it is future.

    It refers to the Millennial Reign of Jesus after He returns. It is the same earth, inhabited by men, but there will be a different Government.

  11. #26

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I think the "principalities and powers" Paul is referring to could be the elders in the church, who then instruct the church.

    that ye...may be able to comprehend...Eph.3:17-18
    I would like to discuss in more depth the chapter, to try to put in context regarding "the principalities and powers in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10).

    Let's go back to the beginning of the chapter (verses 2-4) and consider what Apostle Paul is discussing. He starts off by Paul saying, He has come to knowledge of the mystery. And explains how it came to him, which was through revelation, which was as a result of the dispensation of the grace of God. And then he hopes when they read his words, then they too may have the same understanding.

    Ephesians 3:2-4:
    2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

    So this appears to be the subject of the context.

    He then continues (verses 5-9) to explain that this mystery has been hidden and not made known unto men in other ages. At least until the time it was reavealed to the holy apostles and prophets.

    But again, he focuses on the fact it was revealed to them by the spirit. Then opens up more dialog by stating also; the Gentiles should be fellowheirs of the body and also partakers of the same promise (by the gospel).

    So the mystery Paul is discussing is somewhat complex.

    Paul already set the stage that God has intended that the gospel be preached to the gentiles and now he's letting them know or reminding them that he is called of God for this purpose. He says (verse 7 & 8) that he was made a minister (according to the grace of God and working of Gods power). Then discloses a little more regarding the mystery that he intends to make all men see the mystery and show them exactly what this fellowship looks like.

    Ephesians 3:5-9:
    5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    To the point of the context "the principalities and powers in heavenly places"; his focus is that the mystery (laid out above as being hidden before times) should now be known by the church "the manifold wisdom of God". His desires seem to be intended directly to those having the oversight and order in the church; that they might know the manifold wisdom of God.

    Ephesians 3:10 “To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,”

    He continues to describe in the rest of the chapter that this is according to God’s eternal purpose which is in Christ and we have access by faith.

    So, the mystery in this context is wrapped up in Salvation. Made accessible to the Jews and now also to the Gentiles through the gospel of Christ Jesus. To conclude, by getting this gospel of Christ into the churches, then it is no longer a mystery.

  12. #27

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by TMarcum View Post
    I would like to discuss in more depth the chapter, to try to put in context regarding "the principalities and powers in heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10).

    Let's go back to the beginning of the chapter (verses 2-4) and consider what Apostle Paul is discussing. He starts off by Paul saying, He has come to knowledge of the mystery. And explains how it came to him, which was through revelation, which was as a result of the dispensation of the grace of God. And then he hopes when they read his words, then they too may have the same understanding.

    Ephesians 3:2-4:
    2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

    So this appears to be the subject of the context.

    He then continues (verses 5-9) to explain that this mystery has been hidden and not made known unto men in other ages. At least until the time it was reavealed to the holy apostles and prophets.

    But again, he focuses on the fact it was revealed to them by the spirit. Then opens up more dialog by stating also; the Gentiles should be fellowheirs of the body and also partakers of the same promise (by the gospel).

    So the mystery Paul is discussing is somewhat complex.

    Paul already set the stage that God has intended that the gospel be preached to the gentiles and now he's letting them know or reminding them that he is called of God for this purpose. He says (verse 7 & 8) that he was made a minister (according to the grace of God and working of Gods power). Then discloses a little more regarding the mystery that he intends to make all men see the mystery and show them exactly what this fellowship looks like.

    Ephesians 3:5-9:
    5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    To the point of the context "the principalities and powers in heavenly places"; his focus is that the mystery (laid out above as being hidden before times) should now be known by the church "the manifold wisdom of God". His desires seem to be intended directly to those having the oversight and order in the church; that they might know the manifold wisdom of God.

    Ephesians 3:10 “To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,”

    He continues to describe in the rest of the chapter that this is according to God’s eternal purpose which is in Christ and we have access by faith.

    So, the mystery in this context is wrapped up in Salvation. Made accessible to the Jews and now also to the Gentiles through the gospel of Christ Jesus. To conclude, by getting this gospel of Christ into the churches, then it is no longer a mystery.
    I think the "mystery" could be more than the gentiles and Jews belonging to the same body. He mentions how God created all things (in heaven and earth) by Christ (vs.9) and how Christ's family is not only those on earth, but also in heaven (vs.15). There is a oneness in Christ between heaven and earth.

    Paul talks about being blessed spiritually "in heavenly places" (Eph.3:1) He speaks of principalities and powers, basically authorities, which can apply to church leadership. He says a man (he himself?) was taken to the 3rd heaven (2Cor.12:2).

    So when Paul says they may understand his knowledge (vs.4), he could mean how he came by that knowledge. In 1Cor.3:1-2, Paul tells them he couldn't speak spiritually to them, couldn't share the meat or deeper things of the word with them.

    So Paul might mean, the principalities and power in heavenly places (church leaders walking in the spirit) make known throughout the church how the manifold wisdom (the deeper things of Christ) are imparted to believers.

  13. #28
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    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    As I look at some of the Scriptures being shared, I notice that Paul enlarges the perspective, to accommodate the idea that Jews and Gentiles are now a single family in Christ.

    Under the Law the Hebrews were under the Law and were warned again and again to spurn the pagan Gentiles, to not intermarry with them, to not do business with them, and to not imitate their ways at all.

    But here, in Paul's gospel, the Jews and Gentiles are now together under one flag, and are unified in one faith. God is thus described as the "God of all creation." And heaven is viewed as united with earth through Christ.

    What this seems to be saying is that God and His angels are viewed as united with earth when men turn to Christ, who is seated in heaven. God expands His people from one locality--Israel--to encompass the whole earth by introducing all nations to the gospel of Christ. It is a mystery precisely because under the Law the truths about God were largely confined to one people on a small piece of the earth. And now the truths about God are to fill the whole earth, "as the waters cover the sea."

    And this message is declared thus, by the whole earth, through the Church, to angels because it is a uniting of people of the earth with God and His angels in heaven.

  14. #29

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I think the "mystery" could be more than the gentiles and Jews belonging to the same body. He mentions how God created all things (in heaven and earth) by Christ (vs.9) and how Christ's family is not only those on earth, but also in heaven (vs.15). There is a oneness in Christ between heaven and earth.

    Paul talks about being blessed spiritually "in heavenly places" (Eph.3:1) He speaks of principalities and powers, basically authorities, which can apply to church leadership. He says a man (he himself?) was taken to the 3rd heaven (2Cor.12:2).

    So when Paul says they may understand his knowledge (vs.4), he could mean how he came by that knowledge. In 1Cor.3:1-2, Paul tells them he couldn't speak spiritually to them, couldn't share the meat or deeper things of the word with them.

    So Paul might mean, the principalities and power in heavenly places (church leaders walking in the spirit) make known throughout the church how the manifold wisdom (the deeper things of Christ) are imparted to believers.
    Wow! I think you connected it.

    But I will add that the mystery Paul spoke about is much more complex than the gentiles and Jews belonging to the same body. This was prophesied all throughout the Old Testament and should be no mystery at all.

    The mystery of God is regarding the gift of God (wrapped up in salvation). Pertaining to "the" Christ being sent in Jesus, and Jesus dying for our sins. Being raising the 3rd day. Sitting on the throne in heaven on the right hand side of God. Who is now making heaven accessible to all who should believe on him, by grace of God, through faith will be given the same access to heaven.

    This is the mystery of God that was hidden.

  15. #30

    Re: Eph 3.10 thought

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As I look at some of the Scriptures being shared, I notice that Paul enlarges the perspective, to accommodate the idea that Jews and Gentiles are now a single family in Christ.

    Under the Law the Hebrews were under the Law and were warned again and again to spurn the pagan Gentiles, to not intermarry with them, to not do business with them, and to not imitate their ways at all.

    But here, in Paul's gospel, the Jews and Gentiles are now together under one flag, and are unified in one faith. God is thus described as the "God of all creation." And heaven is viewed as united with earth through Christ.

    What this seems to be saying is that God and His angels are viewed as united with earth when men turn to Christ, who is seated in heaven. God expands His people from one locality--Israel--to encompass the whole earth by introducing all nations to the gospel of Christ. It is a mystery precisely because under the Law the truths about God were largely confined to one people on a small piece of the earth. And now the truths about God are to fill the whole earth, "as the waters cover the sea."

    And this message is declared thus, by the whole earth, through the Church, to angels because it is a uniting of people of the earth with God and His angels in heaven.
    Beautifully said!

    So many people miss this concept which Paul was trying to express altogether.

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