Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28

Thread: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

  1. #16

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    OK but what I'm saying is you're appealing to objectives that relativism isn't interested in, so these points would not be persuasive. In an extreme case for example, murder would be acceptable if both parties consented. How society would deteriorate from this wouldn't matter. A true relativist would just argue that it's self-regulating. It's much more difficult for moral issues that don't affect other people.

    But it depends on your audience I'm sure. I just don't think the "greater good of society" is the right path since relativism is a very selfish philosophy.
    I've been thinking about your post all day, what is an example of a murder where both parties consent?
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  2. #17

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    And if you can provide a example, what causes someone to consent to being murdered? I notice in a lot of moral cases are hypothetical and only hypothetical (not saying the thing you presented is, I am awaiting an example). A popular example of a hypothetical only case is the pushing the fat man on the train track to save 5 people from a train on the track. In reality you just kill 6 people by pushing the fat man on the track to try to stop the train. For morals people use Logic and consistencies of reality, only logic, and intuition from conscience. The problem with just logic is it's not always relevant to reality and when you are dealing with systems that very much deal with something of reality you must consider the consistencies of reality so the logic and those consistencies are in accord.

    Before I end this comment to await an example I have one question, what is your deciding factors for moral logic and how does it relate to reality? For most it is life of a person.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    The Bookshelf
    Posts
    6,745
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I've been thinking about your post all day, what is an example of a murder where both parties consent?
    A practical example could be in Canada where it is legal to receive medically-assisted suicide. Now a person can decide when to end their own life with the help of a willing doctor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    And if you can provide a example, what causes someone to consent to being murdered?
    In most cases it's a fear or unwillingness to live in some sort of severe handicap such as paralysis. But there are "right to die" campaigns which are attempting to expand beyond life-threatening illnesses, because there are also those who want to end their life for general reasons. I believe there are a couple European countries which are becoming lax on this also.

    Before I end this comment to await an example I have one question, what is your deciding factors for moral logic and how does it relate to reality? For most it is life of a person.
    I don't believe morality itself can be determined through logic. Morality is always based on someone's opinion, it's just that we believe God's opinion is the one that matters. Someone might believe life has no value, but I don't think we could prove otherwise.

    Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. (Romans 2)

    For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. (Romans 1)

    So we all know God's law/morality instinctively, even if we can't give a justification for why His way is superior to ours, that everyone agrees on.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  4. #19

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    A practical example could be in Canada where it is legal to receive medically-assisted suicide. Now a person can decide when to end their own life with the help of a willing .
    people could always do that, well maybe not always with medicine per se. I figured that you meant something like this or maybe a duel to the death, I guess I don’t agree because I believe that murder is intrinsically non-consensual (like most immoral stuff). if this were not the case then self sacrifice to save another is also a type of murder, that isn’t an argument but I do think it is obvious and I bet if I tried I could defend it.
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    The Bookshelf
    Posts
    6,745
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I guess I don’t agree because I believe that murder is intrinsically non-consensual (like most immoral stuff).
    Right, so on this you would agree with relativists that consent is the deciding factor in determining morality? Does this also translate to all extreme behaviors or taboo between consenting adults?

    if this were not the case then self sacrifice to save another is also a type of murder, that isn’t an argument but I do think it is obvious and I bet if I tried I could defend it.
    But the objective of euthanasia for example is not to save anyone's life. If someone wants to die over something trivial, is assisted suicide still moral?
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  6. #21

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Right, so on this you would agree with relativists that consent is the deciding factor in determining morality? Does this also translate to all extreme behaviors or taboo between consenting adults?
    I would not agree that consent is the determining factor in morality and I don't believe that it translates to anything because I do not believe it is true. I would agree that murder is intrinsically non-consensual. TBH I don't know if assisted suicide is moral or not, but I do not believe that it is murder. I did almost change "like most immoral stuff" to "like most immoral stuff, maybe not most but an entire class of immoral stuff", but it was a long parenthetical and I wasn't sure that it didn't just muddy my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    But the objective of euthanasia for example is not to save anyone's life. If someone wants to die over something trivial, is assisted suicide still moral?
    It could be that they don't want to continue to burden a family in dire financial straits with medical bills, it cannot be taken for granted that everyone recovers from that. That is just an example but I could think up more, my point isn't that assisted suicide is moral it is that it's not murder. I don't believe that if assisted suicide isn't murder then it isn't immoral.
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  7. #22

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    I just want to bring up a fallacy in my post. My idea was that the most productive morals are the best. The problem is then I go to try defining what things good morals should produce. The problem is that you already have to have morals to decide what fruit (I mean fruit in the sense of what is produced by something.) is good. When deciding if something is good or not, it requires morals. So "based on objectively measureble things" (part of my post.) is wrong because it will always be somewhat subjective due to the interpretation of what things are good or not. My argument was hypocritical because it was claiming to be something completely not subjective when it was subjective. It was literally saying use morals to decide what morals are best.

  8. #23

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Also (I am typing another one because editing my reply is not working.) the title of my post had was a qeustion. Though the thing is I thought I already had a answer (arrogance).
    I had pride which let to me not thinking things through and making myself look like a idiot.

    Pro 11:2* Pride hath come, and shame cometh, And with the lowly is wisdom.*

    Notice how with pride I was stupid and holding on to stupidity. I had a bad argument and held onto it.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,894
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    Also (I am typing another one because editing my reply is not working.) the title of my post had was a qeustion. Though the thing is I thought I already had a answer (arrogance).
    I had pride which let to me not thinking things through and making myself look like a idiot.

    Pro 11:2* Pride hath come, and shame cometh, And with the lowly is wisdom.*

    Notice how with pride I was stupid and holding on to stupidity. I had a bad argument and held onto it.
    Our edit function is not working right now. Just take care before you hit submit.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Northeast Alabama
    Posts
    4,921

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    For those who donít know what reletavism is itís that morality is just construct in society so something like murder in one place is fine and in another itís not. If you bring objectives for morality to a relativist based on objectively measureble things then it brings back importance of certain moralities relativist throw away. Peace, most efficient and active fulfillment of the progression of society, societyís well being,efficient long term and short term survival for society and as well as the most efficient fulfillment and active progression of technology. And all of these objectives to be achieved around the globe. These are objectives to help be fulfilled by morality that are objectively measurable. You can then present how biblical morality helps fulfill these objectives better than other moralities. Also what other objectives could be added and what about this method could be tweaked if needed.
    Ezekiel 13 / 10 comes to mind when I read this. "Because they lead my people astray saying "Peace" where there is no peace, and because , when a flimsy wall is built they cover it with whitewash that is going to fall."

    Relativism will have it's day with abortion being a prime example of what you are speaking of. There is not peace , nor will there ever be peace in a society no matter how technologically advanced they are when they are committing mass infanticide.

  11. #26

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    For those who donít know what reletavism is itís that morality is just construct in society so something like murder in one place is fine and in another itís not. If you bring objectives for morality to a relativist based on objectively measureble things then it brings back importance of certain moralities relativist throw away.
    Relativism can also be seen as erasing moral standards such as justifiable homicide and declaring all killings as murder, when one is, clearly, an act of heroism. Killing to save a life is not the same as murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    Peace, most efficient and active fulfillment of the progression of society, societyís well being,efficient long term and short term survival for society and as well as the most efficient fulfillment and active progression of technology.
    Peace? Peace is the result of having an adequate army to dissuade wanna-be emperors from a war to confiscate your land. At least from a whole-world point of view.

    The New Testament tells us, in the only verse that allows that we can make peace, that we must be armed. And even then it may not be permanent:

    21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    And all of these objectives to be achieved around the globe. These are objectives to help be fulfilled by morality that are objectively measurable. You can then present how biblical morality helps fulfill these objectives better than other moralities. Also what other objectives could be added and what about this method could be tweaked if needed.
    Achieving all those objectives around the globe is not realistic, but it never hurts to try. But one should never give up his ability to kill, for it scares away some very bad people without having to fire a shot:

    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity,the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty-so dear to men, so dear to the enlightened legislator-and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer? such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventative but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impressions of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree." -Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments" (1764).

    "...By giving such a tone to our establishment; by making it universally reputable to bear arms and disgraceful to decline having a share in the performance of military duties; in fine by keeping up in peace a well regulated militia and a disciplined militia, we shall take the fairest and best method to preserve, for a long time to come, the happiness, dignity, and independence of our country." - George Washington, "Sentiments On A Peace Establishment" ( 02 May 1783 ).
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  12. #27

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Even some preachers know to do it.

    The Daily News-Miner, Fairbanks, AK, 4/19/90
    State: AK
    American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/1990
    The Rev. Richard McCaffrey was awakened by the sound of breaking glass in his Bethel, Alaska, church. Upon opening his bedroom door in the rectory, the Jesuit priest was struck on the head with a pipe wrench and knocked to the floor. McCaffrey managed to fire a shot from his revolver, hitting the culprit and causing him to flee. Responding police followed a blood trail from the church to the wounded man and arrested him.

    Review, E. Liverpool, OH
    State: OH
    American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/1968
    A Catholic priest wounded 2 robbers, one disguised as a priest, when the pair broke into the rectory of St. Patrick's Church, Lisbon, Ohio. In an exchange of gunfire in the rectory kitchen, the priest, Fr. Thomas Beldue, was slightly wounded. In passing sentence on the robbers, the judge said, "I glory in Fr. Beldue's defense of his person and the money of his church, and it would be much better if more householders were armed and resisted burglars the way he did. I am proud of him." * Editor's Note: We are indebted to Columbiana County Proscutor J. Warren Bettis and Special Investigator James R. Gause, both of Lisbon, Ohio, for this item.--A.H.

    Daily News, Chicago, IL
    State: IL
    American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/1963
    Rev. Father O'Donnell, rector of St. Patrick's Roman Catholic Church, in Chicago, Ill., was awakened by the screams of his housekeeper and cook. Obtaining a .45 automatic, O'Donnell and another priest rushed downstairs to find an intruder, armed with two knives, ransacking the living room. O'Donnell fired once hitting the burglar in the leg. He held the man until police arrived. It was then that the priest learned that his housekeeper had been fatally stabbed and that his cook was seriously wounded.

    Associated Press, IL
    State: IL
    American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/1961
    Rt. Rev. Msgr. D.A. Lemieux, a skilled hunter, reached for a 12-ga. shotgun and a cal. .32 revolver after hearing glass break in his Chicago, Ill., rectory. He surprised two men rifling a buffet. As they advanced on him, Msgr. Lemiuex warned them to stand fast. The men persisted, the priest warned them again and then felled one, a convicted felon, with a shotgun blast in the abdomen.

    Tulsa World, Tulsa, OK, 6/26/07
    State: OK
    American Rifleman Issue: 9/1/2007
    A pastor and a 17-year-old boy were guarding their church's fireworks stand late at night when a group of suspicious juveniles approached. According to police, the suspects tried to enter the stand and concocted a phony story when confronted. They returned thirty minutes later. This time, two or three suspects attempted to distract the pastor while the others went around and again tried to sneak inside the stand."When the 17-year-old confronted them, they began assaulting him" said Muskogee, OK, Deputy Police Chief Johnny Teehee. "The boy was screaming for help .... " The pastor answered his cries, shooting one of the assailants, who will be arrested after his release from the hospital. Four other juveniles were also arrested. The 17-year-old was treated at the hospital and released.

    The Times Daily, Florence, AL, 7/19/96
    State: AL
    American Rifleman Issue: 10/1/1996
    Pastor Frank McClung of First Southern Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, shudders at the thought of what might have happened had a shotgun-wielding bandit been allowed to make his way into the church during choir practice. Thanks to an armed citizen, he never got that far. Police said the suspect approached one of two parishioners waiting outside the church for their wives and demanded they come with him. The men refused, one going for his car, the other for the church. After the assailant fired into the one man's car, the parishioner retrieved his own gun and returned two fatal shots. "I'm very glad that the church member defended himself and his fellow church members, but I'm sorry that the man with the shotgun died," McClung said.

    The News- Sentinel, Knoxville, TN, 11/30/95
    State: TN
    American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1996
    "Even the Lord's house isn't holy anymore for these people. If they're crazy enough to do something like this to a holy place, there's no telling what they'd do," said Knoxville, Tennessee, pastor Ted Padgett after using a handgun to capture a man burglarizing the church office. Alerted by a church custodian, Rev. Padgett retrieved his .22 from the trunk of his car and entered the church where he came face to face with the stunned intruder, a parolee. He then stood the criminal against a wall and patted him down as the two waited for police.

    The Mountain Press, Prather, CA, 12/13/95
    State: CA
    American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1996
    When a young Prather, California, woman ran to a local church for protection after being threatened by a violent family member, the pastor unhesitatingly offered her sanctuary. When the woman's tormentor arrived with a firearm at the pastor's door, he exchanged words with the minister and shot him in the hand. Wounded, the pastor slammed the door shut. His assailant managed to kick it open, but not before the pastor was able to retrieve his own firearm. Forced to defend himself, the pastor fired a single point-blank shot, killing his attacker.

    The Times, Seattle, WA, 8/19/89
    State: WA
    American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/1989
    Three youths who may have thought the Grace Baptist Church in Port Angeles, Wash., was easy pickings thought wrong when they broke into the house of worship. The Rev. Steve Ragland awoke when he heard noises, told his wife to call police and took his shotgun along to investigate. Two escaped, but the pastor held the gun on the third teenager until authorities arrived.

    The Independent, Anderson, SC
    State: SC
    American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/1975
    When a church secretary screamed as an intruder advanced toward her, Rev. Walter Hudson got his pistol and rushed into the office of his Anderson, S.C., church. The intruder "Looked into the gun and kinda melted away," the pastor said. He kept the man covered until the sheriff arrived.

    The Democrat-Gazette, Little Rock, AR, 1/6/96
    State: AR
    American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1996
    A prison minister from Little Rock, Arkansas, Jack Seaver was used to dealing with tough men. So when one of three teenaged bandits turned angrily toward Seaver after robbing him in his home and approached with knife in hand, the minister understood he had to defend himself. Quickly, he grabbed his .22-caliber rifle and began firing, striking his aggressor. Police later arrested the wounded suspect and one of his accomplices. "I wasn't going to shoot anybody at all until I felt threatened," the minister said.

    The Inquirer, Philadelphia, PA, 2/18/94
    State: PA
    American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/1995
    He would have preferred another way, but Philadelphia minister David A. Venable, 73, had to send a violent intruder to meet his Maker. The robber burst into Venable's kitchen, attacked him with a knife and burned him with hot grease from a frying pan. Pretending to retrieve money, Venable reached for and emptied his five-shot .38, killing the criminal, a repeat offender. "God was definitely with him," said a family friend of the Baptist preacher.

    The Commercial Appeal, Memphis, TN, 2/7/92
    State: TN
    American Rifleman Issue: 4/1/1992
    Asleep at home one morning, Rev. Joel Yarber, a Baptist minister in Memphis, Tenn., awoke to someone knocking on the door and then heard sounds inside the house. Picking up a pistol and investigating, Yarber found a man attempting to steal a VCR. When threatened with a tire iron, Yarber fired four shots, mortally wounding the intruder. Police said the man entered the home by kicking in a door, and got there in a stolen car.

    The Californian, Bakersfield, CA, 10/25/89
    State: CA
    American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/1990
    Bill Hazen was in his cabin near Bakersfield, Calif., shortly after midnight when an intruder forced a sliding glass door. The Los Angeles minister was armed and ordered the man outside. During an ensuing scuffle the attacker ran, but an accomplice appeared in a pickup truck and tried to run down Hazen. The minister fired at the advancing truck and when the vehicle stopped, its occupant got out and said, "I counted six shots; you're out and now I'm going to get you." Hazen fired his large-capacity semi-automatic once more, dropping his adversary. Both men were taken into custody by sheriff's deputies.

    Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, 5/10/89
    State: CO
    American Rifleman Issue: 7/1/1989
    Hearing screams in the alley behind his Denver, Colo., home, architect Norman Cable rushed to investigate, finding his neighbor being mauled by a pit bull terrier. Cable repeatedly struck the dog with a 2x4 to no avail. He ran back to his house and came out armed with a shotgun. Cable fired once, killing the dog and halting the attack. The dog-bite victim, a 58-year-old minister, had both legs broken in the attack, according to authorities, who said the animal had attacked three other people in the past several years.

    The Bee, Sacramento, CA, 10/3/87
    State: CA
    American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/1988
    After four burglaries had stripped his Stockton, Calif., church of most of its valuables, the Rev. John Folmer decided to stand guard nights with his shotgun. When a burglar tripped over some chairs, the 69-year-old minister confronted the intruder and ordered him to lie on the floor while he telephoned police. Authorities said the suspect would be charged with attempted burglary.

    The Daily News-Miner, Fairbanks, AK, 12/12/86
    State: AK
    American Rifleman Issue: 3/1/1987
    A Fairbanks, Alaska, minister and his wife returned unexpectedly to their home and surprised an intruder. The man, armed with a shotgun, threatened the Rev. Raymond Nelson and his wife, but Nelson grabbed a gun and shot the armed man. The man fled a short distance, but a wounded suspect was later taken to a local hospital.

    The Tribune-Review, Greensburg, PA, 5/30/82
    State: PA
    American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/1982
    Rev. Charles White was offering counseling at his Philadelphia church, but a man who entered wanted cash instead. He drew a gun and tried to rob the minister, who drew his own .25 automatic and opened fire, killing the would-be robber.

    The Times-Picayune, New Orleans, LA
    State: LA
    American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/1978
    The Rev. Frank Lewis of New Orleans, La., had gone upstairs to get some record books when two gun-toting intruders entered the house. They tied up his bookkeeper and took a safe from the bedroom into the hallway. Starting upstairs, one of the burglars encountered an armed Lewis, standing at the top. The minister fired twice and the hoodlums fled empty-handed.

    The Tribune, Mesa, AZ, 3/19/97
    State: AZ
    American Rifleman Issue: 6/1/1997
    Deacon Bob McMillan grew suspicious of the man who had asked him to pray with him following services at a church in Apache Junction, Arizona. During a break in prayer, McMillan retrieved the .32-cal. pistol he kept in his car. Upon returning, his suspicions were confirmed as he found the stranger waving a handgun at his wife's head and at his two best friends and demanding the weekly offerings. McMillan pushed his wife out of the way and quickly shot the man, wounding him. He then called police. McMillan said later, "I felt I only had a split second to live."
    JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
    JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,813

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    For those who donít know what reletavism is itís that morality is just construct in society so something like murder in one place is fine and in another itís not. If you bring objectives for morality to a relativist based on objectively measureble things then it brings back importance of certain moralities relativist throw away. Peace, most efficient and active fulfillment of the progression of society, societyís well being,efficient long term and short term survival for society and as well as the most efficient fulfillment and active progression of technology. And all of these objectives to be achieved around the globe. These are objectives to help be fulfilled by morality that are objectively measurable. You can then present how biblical morality helps fulfill these objectives better than other moralities. Also what other objectives could be added and what about this method could be tweaked if needed.
    Relativism wouldn't deny that certain realities are measurable. They would just deny that there is something a priori that gives absolute relevance to things apart from their practical purpose.

    What successfully combats relativism is God's word, which is a very subjective thing. And as one schooled in philosophy might know, it is experience that determines reality for many people. Theory is less convincing.

    If you can get someone to consider experiencing God through the test of obeying his or her own conscience, it may be that he will connect to God's word, and see the relationship between that and moral reality. This is not relative, but directly connects our morality to something absolute, namely God's word in our conscience.

    Where this then goes beyond experience to empirical reality is when our moral experience connects to the realities of human history. We can easily see that Christianity has been able to produce a superior morality that, when followed, produces objective realities of great moral benefit to mankind.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Preaching and Combat in the midst of Islamic terrorists.
    By L'Ange in forum Prayer for the Persecuted Church
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 30th 2017, 01:41 PM
  2. How do you combat this objection?
    By Nick in forum Apologetics and Evangelism
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: Mar 30th 2013, 05:02 PM
  3. Combat wounded
    By mcgyver in forum Prayer
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Sep 22nd 2010, 11:02 AM
  4. How to combat curse words???
    By DeadToSelf in forum Young Adults Fellowship
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Jun 3rd 2010, 09:00 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •