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Thread: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

  1. #16

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    OK but what I'm saying is you're appealing to objectives that relativism isn't interested in, so these points would not be persuasive. In an extreme case for example, murder would be acceptable if both parties consented. How society would deteriorate from this wouldn't matter. A true relativist would just argue that it's self-regulating. It's much more difficult for moral issues that don't affect other people.

    But it depends on your audience I'm sure. I just don't think the "greater good of society" is the right path since relativism is a very selfish philosophy.
    I've been thinking about your post all day, what is an example of a murder where both parties consent?
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  2. #17

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    And if you can provide a example, what causes someone to consent to being murdered? I notice in a lot of moral cases are hypothetical and only hypothetical (not saying the thing you presented is, I am awaiting an example). A popular example of a hypothetical only case is the pushing the fat man on the train track to save 5 people from a train on the track. In reality you just kill 6 people by pushing the fat man on the track to try to stop the train. For morals people use Logic and consistencies of reality, only logic, and intuition from conscience. The problem with just logic is it's not always relevant to reality and when you are dealing with systems that very much deal with something of reality you must consider the consistencies of reality so the logic and those consistencies are in accord.

    Before I end this comment to await an example I have one question, what is your deciding factors for moral logic and how does it relate to reality? For most it is life of a person.

  3. #18
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    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I've been thinking about your post all day, what is an example of a murder where both parties consent?
    A practical example could be in Canada where it is legal to receive medically-assisted suicide. Now a person can decide when to end their own life with the help of a willing doctor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    And if you can provide a example, what causes someone to consent to being murdered?
    In most cases it's a fear or unwillingness to live in some sort of severe handicap such as paralysis. But there are "right to die" campaigns which are attempting to expand beyond life-threatening illnesses, because there are also those who want to end their life for general reasons. I believe there are a couple European countries which are becoming lax on this also.

    Before I end this comment to await an example I have one question, what is your deciding factors for moral logic and how does it relate to reality? For most it is life of a person.
    I don't believe morality itself can be determined through logic. Morality is always based on someone's opinion, it's just that we believe God's opinion is the one that matters. Someone might believe life has no value, but I don't think we could prove otherwise.

    Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. (Romans 2)

    For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. (Romans 1)

    So we all know God's law/morality instinctively, even if we can't give a justification for why His way is superior to ours, that everyone agrees on.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  4. #19

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    A practical example could be in Canada where it is legal to receive medically-assisted suicide. Now a person can decide when to end their own life with the help of a willing .
    people could always do that, well maybe not always with medicine per se. I figured that you meant something like this or maybe a duel to the death, I guess I don’t agree because I believe that murder is intrinsically non-consensual (like most immoral stuff). if this were not the case then self sacrifice to save another is also a type of murder, that isn’t an argument but I do think it is obvious and I bet if I tried I could defend it.
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  5. #20
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    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I guess I don’t agree because I believe that murder is intrinsically non-consensual (like most immoral stuff).
    Right, so on this you would agree with relativists that consent is the deciding factor in determining morality? Does this also translate to all extreme behaviors or taboo between consenting adults?

    if this were not the case then self sacrifice to save another is also a type of murder, that isn’t an argument but I do think it is obvious and I bet if I tried I could defend it.
    But the objective of euthanasia for example is not to save anyone's life. If someone wants to die over something trivial, is assisted suicide still moral?
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  6. #21

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Right, so on this you would agree with relativists that consent is the deciding factor in determining morality? Does this also translate to all extreme behaviors or taboo between consenting adults?
    I would not agree that consent is the determining factor in morality and I don't believe that it translates to anything because I do not believe it is true. I would agree that murder is intrinsically non-consensual. TBH I don't know if assisted suicide is moral or not, but I do not believe that it is murder. I did almost change "like most immoral stuff" to "like most immoral stuff, maybe not most but an entire class of immoral stuff", but it was a long parenthetical and I wasn't sure that it didn't just muddy my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    But the objective of euthanasia for example is not to save anyone's life. If someone wants to die over something trivial, is assisted suicide still moral?
    It could be that they don't want to continue to burden a family in dire financial straits with medical bills, it cannot be taken for granted that everyone recovers from that. That is just an example but I could think up more, my point isn't that assisted suicide is moral it is that it's not murder. I don't believe that if assisted suicide isn't murder then it isn't immoral.
    "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."


  7. #22

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    I just want to bring up a fallacy in my post. My idea was that the most productive morals are the best. The problem is then I go to try defining what things good morals should produce. The problem is that you already have to have morals to decide what fruit (I mean fruit in the sense of what is produced by something.) is good. When deciding if something is good or not, it requires morals. So "based on objectively measureble things" (part of my post.) is wrong because it will always be somewhat subjective due to the interpretation of what things are good or not. My argument was hypocritical because it was claiming to be something completely not subjective when it was subjective. It was literally saying use morals to decide what morals are best.

  8. #23

    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Also (I am typing another one because editing my reply is not working.) the title of my post had was a qeustion. Though the thing is I thought I already had a answer (arrogance).
    I had pride which let to me not thinking things through and making myself look like a idiot.

    Pro 11:2* Pride hath come, and shame cometh, And with the lowly is wisdom.*

    Notice how with pride I was stupid and holding on to stupidity. I had a bad argument and held onto it.

  9. #24
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    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    Also (I am typing another one because editing my reply is not working.) the title of my post had was a qeustion. Though the thing is I thought I already had a answer (arrogance).
    I had pride which let to me not thinking things through and making myself look like a idiot.

    Pro 11:2* Pride hath come, and shame cometh, And with the lowly is wisdom.*

    Notice how with pride I was stupid and holding on to stupidity. I had a bad argument and held onto it.
    Our edit function is not working right now. Just take care before you hit submit.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  10. #25
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    Re: Is this a good way to combat relativism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myname View Post
    For those who donít know what reletavism is itís that morality is just construct in society so something like murder in one place is fine and in another itís not. If you bring objectives for morality to a relativist based on objectively measureble things then it brings back importance of certain moralities relativist throw away. Peace, most efficient and active fulfillment of the progression of society, societyís well being,efficient long term and short term survival for society and as well as the most efficient fulfillment and active progression of technology. And all of these objectives to be achieved around the globe. These are objectives to help be fulfilled by morality that are objectively measurable. You can then present how biblical morality helps fulfill these objectives better than other moralities. Also what other objectives could be added and what about this method could be tweaked if needed.
    Ezekiel 13 / 10 comes to mind when I read this. "Because they lead my people astray saying "Peace" where there is no peace, and because , when a flimsy wall is built they cover it with whitewash that is going to fall."

    Relativism will have it's day with abortion being a prime example of what you are speaking of. There is not peace , nor will there ever be peace in a society no matter how technologically advanced they are when they are committing mass infanticide.

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