Brief commentary on Matt 24

[ForHisglory]

If you treat the events in Dan.11 as fulfilled, then you are. Antiochus IV did not fulfill all those Dan.11 events; he served as a blueprint only. You should have gathered that when you read Jesus quoting in Matthew 24 from the Book of Daniel with the phrase "abomination of desolation", especially since Antiochus IV had been dead for almost 200 years when Jesus forewarned about it.

And it's easy to do revisions of what the Church fathers said, and make it seem like they said something else, as in examples I gave. It's what God's Word reveals about the events that matter. And Dan.11 with the "vile person" is most relevant to Dan.9:27.

Dan 11 is TOTALLY fulfilled, as is Dan 12 when it speaks of the 1290 days and 1335 days.
I state this as someone who argues strongly against Preterism, and believe in PreMil Posttrib.
When Jesus quotes Daniel He is NOT referring to Dan 11 but Dan 9:27.
A4E was a foreshadowing.
IOW as A4E fulfilled Dan 8 and 11 so the future AC will fulfill Dan 9.

Was A4E only a blueprint?
Well the question is how you understand this:
Rev 17:8* The beast that you saw was, and is not,...

When WAS the beast?
The best answer is that the beast WAS A4E.

Then he is not in the time of John, but he is to rise form the bottomless pit.
This puts the beast as one with the demons who are released from there during the 5th trumpet.

The beast IS a person, but also a being who is like the dragon and the false prophet.

[DavePeace]

the AOD is not "something" being placed in the temple it is "someone". The someone being the beast claiming to be the Christ. Thus the abomination nothing to do with 70AD of therin.

Antiochus IV was the blueprint in 165-170 B.C., so yes, the AOD does involve a false one placing an abomination idol. Rev.13 shows this with the "image of the beast" that will be made, following the Daniel blueprint and Nebuchadnezzar's golden idol image.

[DavePeace]

Dan 11 is TOTALLY fulfilled, as is Dan 12 when it speaks of the 1290 days and 1335 days.
I state this as someone who argues strongly against Preterism, and believe in PreMil Posttrib.
When Jesus quotes Daniel He is NOT referring to Dan 11 but Dan 9:27.
A4E was a foreshadowing.
IOW as A4E fulfilled Dan 8 and 11 so the future AC will fulfill Dan 9.

Was A4E only a blueprint?
Well the question is how you understand this:
Rev 17:8* The beast that you saw was, and is not,...

When WAS the beast?
The best answer is that the beast WAS A4E.

Then he is not in the time of John, but he is to rise form the bottomless pit.
This puts the beast as one with the demons who are released from there during the 5th trumpet.

The beast IS a person, but also a being who is like the dragon and the false prophet.

You've already shown your confusion by claiming to be Pre-mill when your belief is actually more aligned to Amill which believes when Jesus returns we immediately go into the new heavens and a new earth, scrapping Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 totally.

Your confusion shows me it's not worth conversing with you, so you are now on my Ignore list.

[ross3421]

Rev.13 shows this with the "image of the beast" that will be made, following the Daniel blueprint and Nebuchadnezzar's golden idol image.

The image of the beast is actually the temple in which the people build for whom they think is Christ. AKA like in the entire OT. Why would they build an idol to whom they think is Christ?


Note the people did not build the image in Daniel.

[DavePeace]

The image of the beast is actually the temple in which the people build for whom they think is Christ. AKA like in the entire OT. Why would they build an idol to whom they think is Christ?

Rev 13:14-15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
KJV


That is the same idea as in Daniel about the golden image Neb's prophets had him setup in false worship in order to trap Daniel and his fellows, because they knew Daniel would not bow in worship to it. Notice that worship of the image is involved in the 15th verse.

[ForHisglory]

You've already shown your confusion by claiming to be Pre-mill when your belief is actually more aligned to Amill which believes when Jesus returns we immediately go into the new heavens and a new earth, scrapping Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 totally.
Your confusion shows me it's not worth conversing with you, so you are now on my Ignore list.

I have no confusion. You can choose to ignore anyone who challenges your view.
My belief is not aligned with Amil or PostMil, as I do NOT believe we are in the Millennium period now.
The MK STARTS when Jesus returns - this then makes my belief PreMil.
There is ZERO requirement for PreMil to say the NHNE only starts AFTER the MK though. That is just your own particular view.
It is common for PreMil to say this.
However there are a few things which PostMil claim which do need considering and reasoning through. There are good reasons why they think the millennium is now, as they have correctly noted that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns.

[Trivalee]

the AOD is not "something" being placed in the temple it is "someone". The someone being the beast claiming to be the Christ. Thus the abomination nothing to do with 70AD of therin.

Don't forget that the Beast cannot sit in the temple indefinitely. He can only sit there for a few hours at best, but will certainly leave his image there to be worshipped in his absence. So technically, the AoD is both the image (Rev 13) and the Beast himself sitting in the temple.

[ross3421]

Rev 13:14-15
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
KJV

That is the same idea as in Daniel about the golden image Neb's prophets had him setup in false worship in order to trap Daniel and his fellows, because they knew Daniel would not bow in worship to it. Notice that worship of the image is involved in the 15th verse.

Did you notice the size of the image? 60X6. Do you know what the size of the door to the tabernacle is? 60X6

So there is a little more than meets the eye

[ross3421]

Don't forget that the Beast cannot sit in the temple indefinitely. He can only sit there for a few hours at best, but will certainly leave his image there to be worshipped in his absence. So technically, the AoD is both the image (Rev 13) and the Beast himself sitting in the temple.

What if the image IS the temple . and the AOD is the beast standing in it......

[Trivalee]

The image of the beast is actually the temple in which the people build for whom they think is Christ. AKA like in the entire OT. Why would they build an idol to whom they think is Christ?


Note the people did not build the image in Daniel.

Where in the Bible did you read that?

[Trivalee]

What if the image IS the temple . and the AOD is the beast standing in it......

The image is not and will not be the temple!
As A4E placed the image of Zeus in the temple, so the future AC will place an image in the temple. It is that simple!

[DurbanDude]

I have no confusion. You can choose to ignore anyone who challenges your view.
My belief is not aligned with Amil or PostMil, as I do NOT believe we are in the Millennium period now.
The MK STARTS when Jesus returns - this then makes my belief PreMil.
There is ZERO requirement for PreMil to say the NHNE only starts AFTER the MK though. That is just your own particular view.
It is common for PreMil to say this.
However there are a few things which PostMil claim which do need considering and reasoning through. There are good reasons why they think the millennium is now, as they have correctly noted that the NHNE starts when Jesus returns.

Actually the earth flees away at the end of the millennium, according to Rev 20:11. So this does require a new earth at the end of the millennium. Unless you have a strange manner of reading the order of events in Rev 20.

[randyk]

I can.
Imagine the Holocaust on steroids - that is the just the one Day of the AC.
In the Holocaust over a period of many years around 6 million Jews were killed.
Imagine more than that number killed on one day.
All are horrible on the individual level. One person's death may be more painful than another's but the tragedy remains true for all.
However God states it will be the worst, so I'll go with God's view.


You see when you make it about the Jews ONLY then you have the Great Distress of the Jews as stated in Luke 21 and this I agree with you on.


Nope, it doesn't encompass now and neither does it encompass Christians who are NOT Jews.


I have absolutely NO idea why you think Irenaeus is off course.
I can clearly see you are so far from the truth that you change meanings to try to get things to fit. This is actually very sad.
Further I don;t see from what you provided any reason to think that any ECFs thought like you.


I just don't get how from the source material you come to your position.. It almost makes your source material irrelevant if you don;t get to grips with it.
This is why I can't get with your major point or pretty much most of your take on the OD.
You seem to ignore the main source, the gospels, veer into "generation" thinking and then come to a conclusion, all of your own.

Well, I came to my conclusions before studying the Church Fathers on this. And I found the Church Fathers seemed to hold to the same position. I don't see how you *can't* see what the Church Fathers are saying on this? I can only provide the quotes! They viewed the 70 Weeks of Daniel as fulfilled in Jesus, his his NT sacrifice, and in the resulting destruction of Jerusalem. This is what Dan 9 says, and this is what the Church Fathers said. Even a number of the Jews BC believed that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in Jesus' time (though not in Jesus himself).

Once we see that the Church Fathers viewed the 70 Weeks as fulfilled in Jesus' time, it's a simple thing to recognize that the AoD of Dan 9 is what Jesus referred to in his Olivet Discourse. The AoD in Dan 9 is plainly about the resulting destruction of the temple and Jerusalem following the death of Christ. This is what Jesus said would happen in his own generation, that "all these things" would happen in "this generation." And this would precipitate a "Great Tribulation" for the Jewish People that would last until the end of the age, at which time Messiah would come, and Israel would be restored.

You're right, that I see the Great Tribulation as a *Jewish* Tribulation! But this is as the OT always put it, as something focused on the Jewish People before the Gentile nations can be included together with them. What applied to the original Jewish Church does apply, in principle, to future generations of Gentile Christians. That is, the Jewish Tribulation in principle applies as a Gentile Tribulation as well.

[ross3421]

Where in the Bible did you read that?

The people whom are to follow the beast make (build) an image unto him. Now if you believe that you are building this thing for Christ himself you would not build a golden calf ect….. what did the prophets and the people build of the OT? A temple. Likewise here.

Fire called down from heaven and causes the image to speak

This is not just some magic trick. This fire which comes down from above then goes into this temple whereby then an audible voice will speak from the holy of hollies. Sound familiar.

2 CHRON 7
1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.
2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.
3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Same thing happens in Rev 13 however as deception. Fire comes down into the house the image (temple) then speaks from the throne and all the world worships the beast whom they think is the almighty God. And then the beast gives out his MARK as God will do the same to his followers.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

The image of the beast is the temple no doubt!!!!!!

[Trivalee]

The people whom are to follow the beast make (build) an image unto him. Now if you believe that you are building this thing for Christ himself you would not build a golden calf ect….. what did the prophets and the people build of the OT? A temple. Likewise here.

Fire called down from heaven and causes the image to speak

This is not just some magic trick. This fire which comes down from above then goes into this temple whereby then an audible voice will speak from the holy of hollies. Sound familiar.

2 CHRON 7
1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.
2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.
3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the Lord upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Same thing happens in Rev 13 however as deception. Fire comes down into the house the image (temple) then speaks from the throne and all the world worships the beast whom they think is the almighty God. And then the beast gives out his MARK as God will do the same to his followers.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

The image of the beast is the temple no doubt!!!!!!

There's nothing in scripture that says the temple will be built for the Antichrist. Rather the Beast will appropriate it for himself. There's a difference.