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Thread: Brief commentary on Matt 24

  1. #166
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm sorry to say this, but some arguments on this Board are so outlandish and yet presented by a clear mind that if you are not grounded in your belief, there is a very good chance you might be swayed otherwise. I have had to go back and read and read and read once again, the OD in Matthew, Mark and Luke to see whether my understanding is indeed, in line with scripture or not. I am happy to say that I came out persuaded more than before that Jesus Christ' primary objective was to lay down and guide believers on what to expect before his Coming.

    The many events, including 70AD, are mere markers to guide us to the ultimate event - his Glorious Return.
    It could be worse I guess, that being that none of us grasp any of these things. So at least some of us grasp these things. It would be better though if we all grasped these things. To think Jesus, in the OD, was mainly focused on only those living at the time, would be like saying, that when He died on the cross, since that happened at that time they were living in, His sacrifice was only focused on them living at the time, and not anyone living before that time or after that time as well. Yet nobody would conclude that though. So I don't know why some seem to think that Jesus found those living at the time to be far more important than someone living after that time? I would think He finds all equally important, regardless what era of time they might be living in.

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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Can you briefly explain what exactly that means. What ended the trib of those days then began the judgment that followed? Keep in mind as well, according to the text in Matt 24, there is first the sun going dark after the trib of those days, etc, and that the coming follows after that.
    The tribulation at that time that Jesus was warning about was the leed up to 70AD. For the church it was the great persecution by Rome and the Jews. For Rome and Israel it was the horrible times of wars, civil wars and earthquakes leeding up to 70AD. You can read of these times and they were also recorded by Taticus & Josephus who were both non Christians who recorded Jesus in history.

    The persecution from Israel ended with the fall of Jerusalem as God judged her for rejecting and killing their Messiah and His saints. Peter states in Acts chapter 2 that his days were the days of Joel chapter 2 which also mentions the symbolic signs of the sun moon and stars. Then the sign of the son of man is that it happened when Jesus said that it would happen proving that He is God that was His sign as coming on clouds was a sign of Gods judgement

    Think about this Jesus mentions in the Olivit discourse to pray that it won't happen on the Sabbath. That was because Jerusalem would shut the city gates on the Sabbath so that no one could come in or go out. Why would that matter now or in the future?

    The proof of all this is that history shows us that it did happen within that generation just like Jesus said that it would. History reveals the truth of prophecy
    Last edited by marty fox; Dec 6th 2018 at 02:57 AM. Reason: added info

  3. #168
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It could be worse I guess, that being that none of us grasp any of these things. So at least some of us grasp these things. It would be better though if we all grasped these things. To think Jesus, in the OD, was mainly focused on only those living at the time, would be like saying, that when He died on the cross, since that happened at that time they were living in, His sacrifice was only focused on them living at the time, and not anyone living before that time or after that time as well. Yet nobody would conclude that though. So I don't know why some seem to think that Jesus found those living at the time to be far more important than someone living after that time? I would think He finds all equally important, regardless what era of time they might be living in.
    That's not the case though. In the OT God dealt with King David. He dealt with various judges, with Moses, with the Prophets, with the nation Israel. And He did all this not to the neglect of the Church, but rather, on behalf of the Church.

    So your perspective is flawed. Certainly Jesus was dealing with Israel, primarily, in the Olivet Discourse, which was before the Cross. This was before God had even expanded outward to the Gentiles.

    And yet this was done not to the exclusion of the Gentiles, but rather, on behalf of the Gentiles, to give them principles that apply universally, and not just to Israel. This is not a legitimate attack on the belief that Jesus was *primarily* dealing with Israel in the Olivet Discourse. He was.

    And he was dealing primarily with his own generation, though not exclusively so. I personally have not said, like Preterists, that this is *all* about the 1st generation of the Church. No, it is *primarily* about the 1st generation, but was intended to provide principles that apply to the Church universal afterwards.

    That's why these versions of the Discourse are in 3 gospels! These were written *after* the Church was born! They were shown to have been said for Israel 1st, and only written for the Church later.

  4. #169
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It's almost as if some think Jesus only cared about people living at that time, and not also people living after that time.
    Not at all it’s that Jesus, messages was for the people of that time that’s all

  5. #170
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Not at all it’s that Jesus, messages was for the people of that time that’s all
    In some cases that might be true, but not in the case of the OD though. And since Jesus would have known that His 2nd coming wasn't going to occur in their lifetimes, though the 2nd coming will affect them as well, since the saved dead of them would be among those that rise first, it wasn't going to affect them at the time though. The 2nd coming wasn't meant for their time, which means events involving the end of days leading up to the 2nd coming weren't for their time either. The way you try and get around this, you claim no 2nd coming can be found in the OD, but that the coming involves judgment in 70 AD instead. You totally ignore context in order to conclude that, or you simply are not able to grasp context in this case. The latter meaning that you are not ignoring context so much, but that you are failing to grasp what is actually meant.

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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The tribulation at that time that Jesus was warning about was the leed up to 70AD. For the church it was the great persecution by Rome and the Jews. For Rome and Israel it was the horrible times of wars, civil wars and earthquakes leeding up to 70AD. You can read of these times and they were also recorded by Taticus & Josephus who were both non Christians who recorded Jesus in history.

    The persecution from Israel ended with the fall of Jerusalem as God judged her for rejecting and killing their Messiah and His saints. Peter states in Acts chapter 2 that his days were the days of Joel chapter 2 which also mentions the symbolic signs of the sun moon and stars. Then the sign of the son of man is that it happened when Jesus said that it would happen proving that He is God that was His sign as coming on clouds was a sign of Gods judgement

    Think about this Jesus mentions in the Olivit discourse to pray that it won't happen on the Sabbath. That was because Jerusalem would shut the city gates on the Sabbath so that no one could come in or go out. Why would that matter now or in the future?

    The proof of all this is that history shows us that it did happen within that generation just like Jesus said that it would. History reveals the truth of prophecy
    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    How many unbelieving Jews who were killed in 70 AD do you suppose are seen among these in Revelation 7:14 above? The point being, great tribulation involves the persecution of the church, and not the fate of unbelieving Jews in 70 AD.

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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    In some cases that might be true, but not in the case of the OD though. And since Jesus would have known that His 2nd coming wasn't going to occur in their lifetimes, though the 2nd coming will affect them as well, since the saved dead of them would be among those that rise first, it wasn't going to affect them at the time though. The 2nd coming wasn't meant for their time, which means events involving the end of days leading up to the 2nd coming weren't for their time either. The way you try and get around this, you claim no 2nd coming can be found in the OD, but that the coming involves judgment in 70 AD instead. You totally ignore context in order to conclude that, or you simply are not able to grasp context in this case. The latter meaning that you are not ignoring context so much, but that you are failing to grasp what is actually meant.
    Actually I did use to think that it was the second coming

    See below what coming on the clouds means in biblical language it means judgement

    Isaiah 19:1-15
    1A prophecy against Egypt:


    See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
    and is coming to Egypt.
    The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
    and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.


    2 “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—
    brother will fight against brother,
    neighbor against neighbor,
    city against city,
    kingdom against kingdom.
    3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
    and I will bring their plans to nothing;
    they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
    the mediums and the spiritists.
    4 I will hand the Egyptians over
    to the power of a cruel master,
    and a fierce king will rule over them,”
    declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.


    5 The waters of the river will dry up,
    and the riverbed will be parched and dry.
    6 The canals will stink;
    the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.
    The reeds and rushes will wither,
    7 also the plants along the Nile,
    at the mouth of the river.
    Every sown field along the Nile
    will become parched, will blow away and be no more.
    8 The fishermen will groan and lament,
    all who cast hooks into the Nile;
    those who throw nets on the water
    will pine away.
    9 Those who work with combed flax will despair,
    the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.
    10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,
    and all the wage earners will be sick at heart.


    11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
    the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice.
    How can you say to Pharaoh,
    “I am one of the wise men,
    a disciple of the ancient kings”?


    12 Where are your wise men now?
    Let them show you and make known
    what the Lord Almighty
    has planned against Egypt.
    13 The officials of Zoan have become fools,
    the leaders of Memphis are deceived;
    the cornerstones of her peoples
    have led Egypt astray.
    14 The Lord has poured into them
    a spirit of dizziness;
    they make Egypt stagger in all that she does,
    as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.
    15 There is nothing Egypt can do—
    head or tail, palm branch or reed.

  8. #173
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    How many unbelieving Jews who were killed in 70 AD do you suppose are seen among these in Revelation 7:14 above? The point being, great tribulation involves the persecution of the church, and not the fate of unbelieving Jews in 70 AD.
    None and I agree with you I have always said that "The great tribulation" is the persecution on the whole entire church over time and I use the verse which you quoted to prove it. But there are many different tribulations for all people

  9. #174
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Actually I did use to think that it was the second coming

    See below what coming on the clouds means in biblical language it means judgement

    Isaiah 19:1-15
    1A prophecy against Egypt:


    See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
    and is coming to Egypt.
    The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
    and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.


    2 “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—
    brother will fight against brother,
    neighbor against neighbor,
    city against city,
    kingdom against kingdom.
    3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
    and I will bring their plans to nothing;
    they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
    the mediums and the spiritists.
    4 I will hand the Egyptians over
    to the power of a cruel master,
    and a fierce king will rule over them,”
    declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.


    5 The waters of the river will dry up,
    and the riverbed will be parched and dry.
    6 The canals will stink;
    the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.
    The reeds and rushes will wither,
    7 also the plants along the Nile,
    at the mouth of the river.
    Every sown field along the Nile
    will become parched, will blow away and be no more.
    8 The fishermen will groan and lament,
    all who cast hooks into the Nile;
    those who throw nets on the water
    will pine away.
    9 Those who work with combed flax will despair,
    the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.
    10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,
    and all the wage earners will be sick at heart.


    11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
    the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice.
    How can you say to Pharaoh,
    “I am one of the wise men,
    a disciple of the ancient kings”?


    12 Where are your wise men now?
    Let them show you and make known
    what the Lord Almighty
    has planned against Egypt.
    13 The officials of Zoan have become fools,
    the leaders of Memphis are deceived;
    the cornerstones of her peoples
    have led Egypt astray.
    14 The Lord has poured into them
    a spirit of dizziness;
    they make Egypt stagger in all that she does,
    as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.
    15 There is nothing Egypt can do—
    head or tail, palm branch or reed.
    Believe it or not, there is such a thing as having been right all along. Just because you have since changed your position, that doesn't always mean that you weren't right to begin with.

    I get your point per the examples you show here. But you need to be reading Matthew 24:42-51 again until you grasp that none of that fits with anything that occurred in the first century, especially to unbelieving Jews in 70 AD. All of that involves the 2nd coming. A lot of it Paul further expands on in 1 Thess 5. You don't interpret 1 Thess 5 as having anything to do with 70 AD, do you?

  10. #175
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It could be worse I guess, that being that none of us grasp any of these things. So at least some of us grasp these things. It would be better though if we all grasped these things. To think Jesus, in the OD, was mainly focused on only those living at the time, would be like saying, that when He died on the cross, since that happened at that time they were living in, His sacrifice was only focused on them living at the time, and not anyone living before that time or after that time as well. Yet nobody would conclude that though. So I don't know why some seem to think that Jesus found those living at the time to be far more important than someone living after that time? I would think He finds all equally important, regardless what era of time they might be living in.
    Exactly. But scriptural knowledge is a strange gift because what comes easily to one easily might be a tack difficult for another. But the one who understood it easily might scratch his head and wonder why the knowledge seems hard or hidden to the other? It takes patience and understanding and prayers of course since the knowledge of God has nothing to do with human wisdom or educational attainment.

  11. #176
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    In some cases that might be true, but not in the case of the OD though. And since Jesus would have known that His 2nd coming wasn't going to occur in their lifetimes, though the 2nd coming will affect them as well, since the saved dead of them would be among those that rise first, it wasn't going to affect them at the time though. The 2nd coming wasn't meant for their time, which means events involving the end of days leading up to the 2nd coming weren't for their time either. The way you try and get around this, you claim no 2nd coming can be found in the OD, but that the coming involves judgment in 70 AD instead. You totally ignore context in order to conclude that, or you simply are not able to grasp context in this case. The latter meaning that you are not ignoring context so much, but that you are failing to grasp what is actually meant.
    A lot of good argument has been put forward in support of the position that Jesus focused primarily on Israel on OD. While this is true, those who hold to this hardline view, conveniently forget that the word of God, whether in the OT or NT covenants remain ever enduring. IOW, it transcends time, age and generation. And since a greater part of the discourse expounded on the events leading to the eschaton, it makes it impossible in all good conscience to put the events of 70 AD ahead of the more important event of his Coming.

    I have heard people claim that Jesus didn't have the Gentiles in mind during his time, but nothing can be further from the truth as John gospel attests.

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Jesus made a direct and explicit reference to the Gentile Church above.

    a. Another sheep which is not this fold (Israel) will I bring denotes Gentiles.
    b. And ALL shall be ONE fold (one Church)
    c. And ONE Shepherd - Jesus Christ, head of the Church.

    I have argued at every opportunity that God gives information on-a-need-to-know-basis. As such, without being explicit, while his listeners were Jews, his message on the OD, however, transcends the Jews. It is no secret that the OT prophets did not always fully understood what they prophecied all the time since they were merely God's mouthpiece; in the same way, the disciples did not fully grasp what said on every occasion. And Jesus purposely didn't make it easier for them but rather left it to the Holy Spirit to provide the truth and insight what was said.

    I have learnt that only the Holy Spirit can change the heart of the intransigent because as he is persuaded of the validity of his case, no human argument can convince them otherwise. The least one can do is present a counter argument and leave the rest to the Spirit that works in our hearts to do the rest.

  12. #177
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    Re: Brief commentary on Matt 24

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Believe it or not, there is such a thing as having been right all along. Just because you have since changed your position, that doesn't always mean that you weren't right to begin with.

    I get your point per the examples you show here. But you need to be reading Matthew 24:42-51 again until you grasp that none of that fits with anything that occurred in the first century, especially to unbelieving Jews in 70 AD. All of that involves the 2nd coming. A lot of it Paul further expands on in 1 Thess 5. You don't interpret 1 Thess 5 as having anything to do with 70 AD, do you?
    No I see 1 these 5 as the rapture and the end of our world

    Did you see post #173?

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