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Thread: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

  1. #16
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure I believe there is some application of Daniel 8 to the end of the world, I regard Antiochus as a forerunner to the antichrist. But the wording of Daniel 8 precisely refers to the Greek Empire and the little horn from the four parts of the Greek Empire. Maybe you expect the Greek Empire to re-arise and break into four parts, I don't.
    In Dan.2 with the explanation of the statue image parts, we are shown 5 pieces to the statue...

    Dan 2:34-35
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
    KJV


    1. Gold = Babylon kingdom;
    2. Silver = Medo-Persia;
    3. Brass = Greek under Alexander;
    4. Iron = Roman empire;
    5. Clay-Iron = final one with 10 kings.

    Note the Dan.2:35 verse says all five pieces are "broken to pieces together" when the Stone (Jesus) comes to smite the image upon its feet of ten toes. Then Christ's Eternal Kingdom is setup, showing that final kingdom of ten toes of clay mixed with iron will be the very last one, and will hold up all... the previous pieces, so that the statue is all together when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet.


    This idea is repeated again later in Dan.2:

    Dan 2:41-44
    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but
    it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    KJV


    Notice it is not being specific with ideas like, the Babylon kingdom falls first, then Medo-Persian kingdom falls next, then Grecia, etc. No, it shows them all... together when Jesus comes to "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms."

    I do not interpret that to mean that the old empires will rise again and be exactly like their ancient times. I interpret that to mean their old belief systems and ways, which is enough of a re-establishing for the end to show joining of all religions of history under one head (Antichrist). And the final beast of ten toes will be the one to drive it for the end.

    Each piece of the statue has a specific gravity that is lighter as it gets down to the feet of ten toes, making the statue real top heavy, and thus ready to fall.

  2. #17
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    In Dan.2 with the explanation of the statue image parts, we are shown 5 pieces to the statue...

    Dan 2:34-35
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
    KJV


    1. Gold = Babylon kingdom;
    2. Silver = Medo-Persia;
    3. Brass = Greek under Alexander;
    4. Iron = Roman empire;
    5. Clay-Iron = final one with 10 kings.

    Note the Dan.2:35 verse says all five pieces are "broken to pieces together" when the Stone (Jesus) comes to smite the image upon its feet of ten toes. Then Christ's Eternal Kingdom is setup, showing that final kingdom of ten toes of clay mixed with iron will be the very last one, and will hold up all... the previous pieces, so that the statue is all together when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet.


    This idea is repeated again later in Dan.2:

    Dan 2:41-44
    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but
    it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    KJV


    Notice it is not being specific with ideas like, the Babylon kingdom falls first, then Medo-Persian kingdom falls next, then Grecia, etc. No, it shows them all... together when Jesus comes to "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms."

    I do not interpret that to mean that the old empires will rise again and be exactly like their ancient times. I interpret that to mean their old belief systems and ways, which is enough of a re-establishing for the end to show joining of all religions of history under one head (Antichrist). And the final beast of ten toes will be the one to drive it for the end.

    Each piece of the statue has a specific gravity that is lighter as it gets down to the feet of ten toes, making the statue real top heavy, and thus ready to fall.
    Sure Dave , that all makes sense. Even so Daniel 8 is clear the focus of that particular chapter is on a character from one of the four Greek kingdoms.

  3. #18
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The bible was not written for rocket scientists and theologians and students of the history of the Early Church Fathers. Each book and letter was written to average Joe, and I believe that is how we must read the chapters that mention the abomination:
    I don't agree with this. For example, Luke wrote for Theophilus, who was likely a refined, educated leader. But the Scriptures were written for all, especially for the leadership, who could take these stories and explain them to the people. Those who choose to read the Bible do so to their credit, but failing to do so does not make them an "average Joe." I know exemplary, leading Christians who are not very versed in the Sriptures, by their own personal reading. There are, for example, worship leaders who do not read the Scriptures to develop a systematic theology. But if you wish to teach the Scriptures you *must* have a systematic theology!

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Daniel 12 describes the resurrection. When discussing timing the angel mentions the time of the end, and says 1290 days from when you see the abomination.
    average Joe would probably then associate the abomination with a 1290 day period before the resurrection.

    Daniel 8 describes an abomination in the temple, but context is clear that abomination occurs in the later part of four Greek kingdoms. Average Joe would probably look for some abomination then in the late part of the four Greek kingdoms. Sure enough Antiochus set up a statue to Zeus in the Jewish temple which upset the Jewish nation. This Greek history would then serve as a good example of what the later abomination of Matthew 24 is, some kind of image set up in the Jewish temple.

    Daniel 9:27 mentions an abomination in the middle of the last seven years of a 490 year period. The 490 year period ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). Average Joe would probably associate the abomination with an event 3.5 years before the end to sin in Jerusalem, and notice that there is still currently sin in Jerusalem. So average Joe would probably expect the abomination 3.5 years before the end of this sinful age.

    Matthew 24 refers to Daniel's abomination preceding the second coming. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel. average Joe probably wonders if the gospel has yet reached all nations, and also sees this abomination associated with the "end". and average Joe will probably notice that this occurs just before the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24. Average Joe would possibly associate this abomination with that of Daniel, a 3.5 year period before the end.

    Rev 13 talks about a 42 month (3.5 years) period of rule of the beast. But then it refers to a great image that deceives the world. This could be the abomination. Average Joe would think a great image in Jerusalem, 42 months before the end, could be the abomination.

    Rocket scientists and theologians will rethink all the logic above. Don't be like a rocket scientist, be like average Joe, go with your common sense.
    These chapters are not understood by superficial "surface reading." It would be like speed reading a science textbook. Doesn't work!

    The conclusions you draw about these chapters are wrong, in my opinion. Since I don't believe you're an "Average Joe," I think you should not force your views into the mind of an "Average Joe!"

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't agree with this. For example, Luke wrote for Theophilus, who was likely a refined, educated leader. But the Scriptures were written for all, especially for the leadership, who could take these stories and explain them to the people. Those who choose to read the Bible do so to their credit, but failing to do so does not make them an "average Joe." I know exemplary, leading Christians who are not very versed in the Sriptures, by their own personal reading. There are, for example, worship leaders who do not read the Scriptures to develop a systematic theology. But if you wish to teach the Scriptures you *must* have a systematic theology!



    These chapters are not understood by superficial "surface reading." It would be like speed reading a science textbook. Doesn't work!

    The conclusions you draw about these chapters are wrong, in my opinion. Since I don't believe you're an "Average Joe," I think you should not force your views into the mind of an "Average Joe!"
    Sure I am not an average Joe, but I try to take the bible at face value with a tendency to faith in the literal outworking of prophetic events. I try to see it as average Joe would.

    And you call it superficial, I think that is underestimating the ability of God to speak in our language. It is entirely possible that those with a simple "superficial" understanding of these scriptures will reach the truth way before we do.

    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough - Albert Einstein

    Any intelligent fool can invent further complications but it takes a genius to retain or recapture simplicity - Schumacher

    God is intelligent enough to be able to explain things simply, it is us who make it complicated.

  5. #20
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude;3478211
    [B
    Daniel 12 [/B]describes the resurrection. When discussing timing the angel mentions the time of the end, and says 1290 days from when you see the abomination.
    average Joe would probably then associate the abomination with a 1290 day period before the resurrection.
    2 major prophecies in the book of Daniel are the prophecies of Antiochus 4 and the Antichrist. Antiochus 4 is mentioned in Dan 8 and Dan 11-12. And the Antichrist is referred to in Dan 7 and 12. Dan 12 is largely a summary of these 2 prophecies, the 3.5 years having to do with Antichrist, and the 1290 days having to do with Antiochus 4. Understanding both the prophecy and the history pertaining to it does require study, and not surface reading. It requires study aids.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Daniel 8 describes an abomination in the temple, but context is clear that abomination occurs in the later part of four Greek kingdoms. Average Joe would probably look for some abomination then in the late part of the four Greek kingdoms. Sure enough Antiochus set up a statue to Zeus in the Jewish temple which upset the Jewish nation. This Greek history would then serve as a good example of what the later abomination of Matthew 24 is, some kind of image set up in the Jewish temple.
    There are 2 "abominations of desolation" in Daniel, Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army. Antiochus is mentioned in Dan 8 and Dan 11-12, and the Roman Army is referred to in Dan 9. Antiochus then would indeed set a precedent for what the Roman Army would be. Both are AoDs in the sense that both present a challenge to God in His house, the Jewish temple. Antiochus desecrated the temple and murdered Jews faithful to their Law. Titus of the Romans destroyed the temple and killed many Jews, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Daniel 9:27 mentions an abomination in the middle of the last seven years of a 490 year period. The 490 year period ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). Average Joe would probably associate the abomination with an event 3.5 years before the end to sin in Jerusalem, and notice that there is still currently sin in Jerusalem. So average Joe would probably expect the abomination 3.5 years before the end of this sinful age.
    Looking at this like an "Average Joe" I wouldn't conclude this at all. Quite frankly, I would be lost!

    But after studying and showing myself to be a student "approved of God," and faithful to the words of Scripture, I would come up with very different conclusions than your own. Of course you are choosing to look at this like an "Average Joe," which is absolutely wrong!

    My studied conclusion is that the 490 year period brings us up to the time of Messiah's earthly ministry and death, following by the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary." The destruction of the temple in 70 AD indeed followed the time when Jesus was cut off, and constituted an AoD. The Roman Army *desolated* the temple by destroying it, stone by stone. That is what Abomination of *Desolation* means!

    The "end to sin" obviously did not happen 490 years after any historic decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But roughly 490 years after Artaxerxes decreed to rebuild Jerusalem Jesus came and died on the cross, *legally* putting away sin, on behalf of his people. The sins of Israel were also terminated in judgment, by the Romans coming to destroy Jerusalem within the very generation in which Jesus was crucified.

    Thus, in 2 ways "sin was terminated." One, Jesus legally atoned for sin, pardoning Israel when they accept him in the New Covenant. And two, Israel was judged, removing their sin in the holy land by completely removing *them!*

    This had nothing whatsoever to do with bringing in the Millennial Age, and removing Israel's waywardness for all time. On the contrary, the prophecy indicates that after the Messiah comes, he is cut off, and the temple is destroyed. This is not the end to sin among the Jews. But it does bring an end to sin under the old temple system, because the temple itself is destroyed!

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Matthew 24 refers to Daniel's abomination preceding the second coming. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel. average Joe probably wonders if the gospel has yet reached all nations, and also sees this abomination associated with the "end". and average Joe will probably notice that this occurs just before the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24. Average Joe would possibly associate this abomination with that of Daniel, a 3.5 year period before the end.
    This is a complete misrepresentation of what Jesus said, in my opinion. Jesus said that *within his own generation* the temple would be completely destroyed. He mentioned a number of signs preceding this event, and then said "all these things will take place in this generation."

    So Jesus was talking about an AoD in his own generation, and not about some future AoD in the time immediately preceding the Kingdom of God! But I've explained this in detail elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Rev 13 talks about a 42 month (3.5 years) period of rule of the beast. But then it refers to a great image that deceives the world. This could be the abomination. Average Joe would think a great image in Jerusalem, 42 months before the end, could be the abomination.
    "Average Joe" would *not* read "Abomination of Desolation" in Rev 13 where he doesn't see those words! No, the Scriptures do not identify the image of Antichrist as an AoD, whereas Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army are indeed identified as AoDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Rocket scientists and theologians will rethink all the logic above. Don't be like a rocket scientist, be like average Joe, go with your common sense.
    I don't think most of us are trying to pretend to be rocket scientists. But on the other hand, none of us are Average Joe either. And we shouldn't be. We should be Bible students, capable of studying to show ourselves approved of God.

    There are 2 ways to be approved of God. 1) We can study the history, the language, and the hermeneutics. 2) We can show good character, and adapt to changes in information we receive from God or from others.

    This "negative reaction" to your post is a bit harsh. But I assure you, beyond some of our disagreements I have nothing but respect for you, and appreciation for your comments. I have no choice but to say things the best way I can, as I believe them to be. There is no better way I can contribute to your own learning on these matters.

  6. #21
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure I am not an average Joe, but I try to take the bible at face value with a tendency to faith in the literal outworking of prophetic events. I try to see it as average Joe would.

    And you call it superficial, I think that is underestimating the ability of God to speak in our language. It is entirely possible that those with a simple "superficial" understanding of these scriptures will reach the truth way before we do.

    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough - Albert Einstein

    Any intelligent fool can invent further complications but it takes a genius to retain or recapture simplicity - Schumacher

    God is intelligent enough to be able to explain things simply, it is us who make it complicated.
    Do you really think that Einstein and the science he applied is simple and understood by the Average Joe by some kind of "divine revelation?" I don't think so, brother...

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you really think that Einstein and the science he applied is simple and understood by the Average Joe by some kind of "divine revelation?" I don't think so, brother...
    My point is that if one understands a position well, it is possible to express it in terms the average person can understand. This is how I believe the bible was written, God wrote it in terms the average person can understand. Yes some studies are sometimes required, but with applying simple common sense.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    2 major prophecies in the book of Daniel are the prophecies of Antiochus 4 and the Antichrist. Antiochus 4 is mentioned in Dan 8 and Dan 11-12. And the Antichrist is referred to in Dan 7 and 12. Dan 12 is largely a summary of these 2 prophecies, the 3.5 years having to do with Antichrist, and the 1290 days having to do with Antiochus 4. Understanding both the prophecy and the history pertaining to it does require study, and not surface reading. It requires study aids.



    There are 2 "abominations of desolation" in Daniel, Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army. Antiochus is mentioned in Dan 8 and Dan 11-12, and the Roman Army is referred to in Dan 9. Antiochus then would indeed set a precedent for what the Roman Army would be. Both are AoDs in the sense that both present a challenge to God in His house, the Jewish temple. Antiochus desecrated the temple and murdered Jews faithful to their Law. Titus of the Romans destroyed the temple and killed many Jews, as well.



    Looking at this like an "Average Joe" I wouldn't conclude this at all. Quite frankly, I would be lost!

    But after studying and showing myself to be a student "approved of God," and faithful to the words of Scripture, I would come up with very different conclusions than your own. Of course you are choosing to look at this like an "Average Joe," which is absolutely wrong!

    My studied conclusion is that the 490 year period brings us up to the time of Messiah's earthly ministry and death, following by the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary." The destruction of the temple in 70 AD indeed followed the time when Jesus was cut off, and constituted an AoD. The Roman Army *desolated* the temple by destroying it, stone by stone. That is what Abomination of *Desolation* means!

    The "end to sin" obviously did not happen 490 years after any historic decree to rebuild Jerusalem. But roughly 490 years after Artaxerxes decreed to rebuild Jerusalem Jesus came and died on the cross, *legally* putting away sin, on behalf of his people. The sins of Israel were also terminated in judgment, by the Romans coming to destroy Jerusalem within the very generation in which Jesus was crucified.

    Thus, in 2 ways "sin was terminated." One, Jesus legally atoned for sin, pardoning Israel when they accept him in the New Covenant. And two, Israel was judged, removing their sin in the holy land by completely removing *them!*

    This had nothing whatsoever to do with bringing in the Millennial Age, and removing Israel's waywardness for all time. On the contrary, the prophecy indicates that after the Messiah comes, he is cut off, and the temple is destroyed. This is not the end to sin among the Jews. But it does bring an end to sin under the old temple system, because the temple itself is destroyed!



    This is a complete misrepresentation of what Jesus said, in my opinion. Jesus said that *within his own generation* the temple would be completely destroyed. He mentioned a number of signs preceding this event, and then said "all these things will take place in this generation."

    So Jesus was talking about an AoD in his own generation, and not about some future AoD in the time immediately preceding the Kingdom of God! But I've explained this in detail elsewhere.



    "Average Joe" would *not* read "Abomination of Desolation" in Rev 13 where he doesn't see those words! No, the Scriptures do not identify the image of Antichrist as an AoD, whereas Antiochus 4 and the Roman Army are indeed identified as AoDs.



    I don't think most of us are trying to pretend to be rocket scientists. But on the other hand, none of us are Average Joe either. And we shouldn't be. We should be Bible students, capable of studying to show ourselves approved of God.

    There are 2 ways to be approved of God. 1) We can study the history, the language, and the hermeneutics. 2) We can show good character, and adapt to changes in information we receive from God or from others.

    This "negative reaction" to your post is a bit harsh. But I assure you, beyond some of our disagreements I have nothing but respect for you, and appreciation for your comments. I have no choice but to say things the best way I can, as I believe them to be. There is no better way I can contribute to your own learning on these matters.
    I feel you are complicating the bible, when the opening post made some simple sense of it all. For example, the 1290 days of Daniel 12 are logically in the context of events surrounding the resurrection mentioned in the same chapter. It makes no sense that they are pointing to the abomination in the earlier Greek kingdom of the Seleucids.

    And I completely disagree with your hermeneutics, the bible was written for the simple. Not the theologians who need too much complicated detail. To study to show yourself approved will manifest in a common sense view of the bible, easily understood by all.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I feel you are complicating the bible, when the opening post made some simple sense of it all. For example, the 1290 days of Daniel 12 are logically in the context of events surrounding the resurrection mentioned in the same chapter. It makes no sense that they are pointing to the abomination in the earlier Greek kingdom of the Seleucids.
    The 1290 days according to the SIMPLE reading as Average Joe would, would be connecting to the Abomination of Dan 11.
    I agree AJ would understand most of the Bible, but some would require a bit of work.
    This doesn't though:
    Dan 12:11* And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

    Notice the angel DIRECTLY connects the 1290 days to TWO things, the offering taken away and the abomination being set up.
    Dan 11:31* Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

    Everyone SHOULD connect 12:11 with 11:31.
    IF 11:31 is about A4E then so is 12:11.
    When AJ has also read Dan 8 then he would note this:
    Dan 8:11* It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.*
    Dan 8:12* And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.*
    Dan 8:13* Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”*
    Dan 8:14* And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

    I would then pull the time line together and have THREE counts of days, ALL starting from the regular sacrifice being stopped.
    The first lasts 1150 days, the second 1290 days and the last 1335 days.

    All fulfilled with A4E.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Sure Dave , that all makes sense. Even so Daniel 8 is clear the focus of that particular chapter is on a character from one of the four Greek kingdoms.
    I'm not going to argue Dan.8 with you, because it also serves as an example for the final Antichrist.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The 1290 days according to the SIMPLE reading as Average Joe would, would be connecting to the Abomination of Dan 11.
    I agree AJ would understand most of the Bible, but some would require a bit of work.
    This doesn't though:
    Dan 12:11* And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

    Notice the angel DIRECTLY connects the 1290 days to TWO things, the offering taken away and the abomination being set up.
    Dan 11:31* Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

    Everyone SHOULD connect 12:11 with 11:31.
    IF 11:31 is about A4E then so is 12:11.
    When AJ has also read Dan 8 then he would note this:
    Dan 8:11* It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.*
    Dan 8:12* And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.*
    Dan 8:13* Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?”*
    Dan 8:14* And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

    I would then pull the time line together and have THREE counts of days, ALL starting from the regular sacrifice being stopped.
    The first lasts 1150 days, the second 1290 days and the last 1335 days.

    All fulfilled with A4E.
    FHG, I have to acknowledge some common sense in your associating the abomination with Daniel 11:31.
    However, the wording of Daniel 12:1-2 is strong resurrection wording which does not speak to me of the "resurrection" of Israel around the time of Antiochus Epiphanes as some would have it.

    Knowing that this prophecy begins during the kings of Persia, and yet ends at the resurrection, somewhere there is a huge gap in the prophecy. I would say v31-35 are dual fulfiment, leading on to the end-times.

    If one reads the books of Maccabees, a definite period of 2300 "evenings and mornings" (Daniel 8) can be associated with Antiochus Epiphanes, however there is no definite period of 1290 days (Dan 12)associated with Antiochus Epiphanes in the book of Maccabees.

    For average Joe, Daniel 11 is a little complicated because it starts with kings of Persia, but ends with the resurrection, so which parts are end-times? Guess what, average Joe has nailed it, most see the abomination of v31 as end times, and the 1290 days as end-times. They may miss Antiochus there in v31, but does it matter that the duality is not always recognised? What is important is that there will be a great sign in Israel, followed by 3.5 years until the resurrection.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    FHG, I have to acknowledge some common sense in your associating the abomination with Daniel 11:31.
    Agreement helps.

    However, the wording of Daniel 12:1-2 is strong resurrection wording which does not speak to me of the "resurrection" of Israel around the time of Antiochus Epiphanes as some would have it.
    I do NOT have a resurrection at the time of A4E, neither does Dan 12:2 suggest a resurrection at that time.

    Knowing that this prophecy begins during the kings of Persia, and yet ends at the resurrection, somewhere there is a huge gap in the prophecy. I would say v31-35 are dual fulfiment, leading on to the end-times.
    I see you are missing the point (again).
    Dan 10, 11 & 12 is one whole prophetic word.
    All of it speaks of the Greek period EXCEPT the START which gives the link with the Persians (and the world Daniel is living in) and the END which is the ultimate state, when one is resurrected to face God.
    There is NO gap in the prophecy.
    It simply highlights that what you do DURING the time will reflect your eternal situation.

    If one reads the books of Maccabees, a definite period of 2300 "evenings and mornings" (Daniel 8) can be associated with Antiochus Epiphanes, however there is no definite period of 1290 days (Dan 12)associated with Antiochus Epiphanes in the book of Maccabees.
    And?
    There is actually in Maccabees sufficient evidence for the 1290 days and for the 1335 days. We also have from other sources too.
    However the focus is on the temple, whereas the 1290 days is NOT about the temple, nor is the 1335 days.

    1Ma 1:10* And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.
    Most would agree this was 175 BC.

    1Ma 1:54* Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
    Most agree this is 168 BC

    1Ma 4:52* Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in the morning,*
    1Ma 4:53* And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made.
    This is 3 years and 10 days later - this is the 1150 days.
    This is November/December 165 BC.

    1Ma 5:54* So they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, where they offered burnt offerings, because not one of them were slain until they had returned in peace.*
    1Ma 6:5* Moreover there came one who brought him tidings into Persia, that the armies, which went against the land of Judea, were put to flight:*
    1Ma 6:6* And that Lysias, who went forth first with a great power was driven away of the Jews; and that they were made strong by the armour, and power, and store of spoils, which they had gotten of the armies, whom they had destroyed:

    This defeat of Lysias seems to have been achieved by Summer 164 BC - so around 1290 days.

    1Ma 6:16* So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

    This is Autumn 164 BC. It is around 1335 days. The one who had made the Abomination himself was dead. Even as stated in Dan 11. No one could help him, it was the hand of God.

    For average Joe, Daniel 11 is a little complicated because it starts with kings of Persia, but ends with the resurrection, so which parts are end-times? Guess what, average Joe has nailed it, most see the abomination of v31 as end times, and the 1290 days as end-times. They may miss Antiochus there in v31, but does it matter that the duality is not always recognised? What is important is that there will be a great sign in Israel, followed by 3.5 years until the resurrection.
    No Average Joe will clearly read the whole lot as one succession of time. He will see the AoD in verse 31 as connected with the End of the Greek kingdoms.
    He will also read 12:2 as being the eternal result of how the people respond during this whole period:
    Dan 11:32* He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.*
    Dan 11:33* And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.

    IF AJ knows Maccabees then he will easily connect this to that time:
    1Ma 1:11* In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.*
    1Ma 1:12* So this device pleased them well.*
    1Ma 1:13* Then certain of the people were so forward herein, that they went to the king, who gave them licence to do after the ordinances of the heathen:*
    1Ma 1:14* Whereupon they built a place of exercise at Jerusalem according to the customs of the heathen:*
    1Ma 1:15* And made themselves uncircumcised, and forsook the holy covenant, and joined themselves to the heathen, and were sold to do mischief.*

  13. #28
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Agreement helps.


    I do NOT have a resurrection at the time of A4E, neither does Dan 12:2 suggest a resurrection at that time.


    I see you are missing the point (again).
    Dan 10, 11 & 12 is one whole prophetic word.
    All of it speaks of the Greek period EXCEPT the START which gives the link with the Persians (and the world Daniel is living in) and the END which is the ultimate state, when one is resurrected to face God.
    There is NO gap in the prophecy.
    It simply highlights that what you do DURING the time will reflect your eternal situation.


    And?
    There is actually in Maccabees sufficient evidence for the 1290 days and for the 1335 days. We also have from other sources too.
    However the focus is on the temple, whereas the 1290 days is NOT about the temple, nor is the 1335 days.

    1Ma 1:10* And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.
    Most would agree this was 175 BC.

    1Ma 1:54* Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
    Most agree this is 168 BC

    1Ma 4:52* Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in the morning,*
    1Ma 4:53* And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made.
    This is 3 years and 10 days later - this is the 1150 days.
    This is November/December 165 BC.

    1Ma 5:54* So they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, where they offered burnt offerings, because not one of them were slain until they had returned in peace.*
    1Ma 6:5* Moreover there came one who brought him tidings into Persia, that the armies, which went against the land of Judea, were put to flight:*
    1Ma 6:6* And that Lysias, who went forth first with a great power was driven away of the Jews; and that they were made strong by the armour, and power, and store of spoils, which they had gotten of the armies, whom they had destroyed:

    This defeat of Lysias seems to have been achieved by Summer 164 BC - so around 1290 days.

    1Ma 6:16* So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

    This is Autumn 164 BC. It is around 1335 days. The one who had made the Abomination himself was dead. Even as stated in Dan 11. No one could help him, it was the hand of God.


    No Average Joe will clearly read the whole lot as one succession of time. He will see the AoD in verse 31 as connected with the End of the Greek kingdoms.
    He will also read 12:2 as being the eternal result of how the people respond during this whole period:
    Dan 11:32* He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.*
    Dan 11:33* And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.

    IF AJ knows Maccabees then he will easily connect this to that time:
    1Ma 1:11* In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.*
    1Ma 1:12* So this device pleased them well.*
    1Ma 1:13* Then certain of the people were so forward herein, that they went to the king, who gave them licence to do after the ordinances of the heathen:*
    1Ma 1:14* Whereupon they built a place of exercise at Jerusalem according to the customs of the heathen:*
    1Ma 1:15* And made themselves uncircumcised, and forsook the holy covenant, and joined themselves to the heathen, and were sold to do mischief.*
    If you don't see a gap between those Greek kingdoms and the resurrection, how do you explain that the resurrection occurs at the time the king of the north comes to his end?
    44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him .At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

  14. #29
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    If you don't see a gap between those Greek kingdoms and the resurrection, how do you explain that the resurrection occurs at the time the king of the north comes to his end?
    44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him .At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
    Did you not read what I said.
    There is NO resurrection AT THAT TIME.
    The resurrection occurs as a RESULT of what happens AT THAT TIME.
    Your eternal fate is determined by HOW you live through the time of Tribulation.
    This is a message for the church as well as for those people of that time.

  15. #30
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is actually in Maccabees sufficient evidence for the 1290 days and for the 1335 days. We also have from other sources too.
    However the focus is on the temple, whereas the 1290 days is NOT about the temple, nor is the 1335 days.

    1Ma 1:10* And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks.
    Most would agree this was 175 BC.

    1Ma 1:54* Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
    Most agree this is 168 BC

    1Ma 4:52* Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in the morning,*
    1Ma 4:53* And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made.
    This is 3 years and 10 days later - this is the 1150 days.
    This is November/December 165 BC.

    1Ma 5:54* So they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, where they offered burnt offerings, because not one of them were slain until they had returned in peace.*
    1Ma 6:5* Moreover there came one who brought him tidings into Persia, that the armies, which went against the land of Judea, were put to flight:*
    1Ma 6:6* And that Lysias, who went forth first with a great power was driven away of the Jews; and that they were made strong by the armour, and power, and store of spoils, which they had gotten of the armies, whom they had destroyed:

    This defeat of Lysias seems to have been achieved by Summer 164 BC - so around 1290 days.

    1Ma 6:16* So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

    This is Autumn 164 BC. It is around 1335 days. The one who had made the Abomination himself was dead. Even as stated in Dan 11. No one could help him, it was the hand of God.
    I agree with the precise 1150 days of Maccabees matching the 2300 evenings and mornings of Daniel 8. After that you have approximate dates yet Rev 12 is obviously about the resurrection, and the time leading up to the resurrection.

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