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Thread: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

  1. #31
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Did you not read what I said.
    There is NO resurrection AT THAT TIME.
    The resurrection occurs as a RESULT of what happens AT THAT TIME.
    Your eternal fate is determined by HOW you live through the time of Tribulation.
    This is a message for the church as well as for those people of that time.
    I am more literal than you. If the bible says the resurrection occurs at that time, I believe the resurrection occurs at that time. You say the resurrection occurs "as a result of what happens at that time" which I don't see in the text. We shall have to just disagree here, I have a more literal approach.

  2. #32
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I am more literal than you. If the bible says the resurrection occurs at that time, I believe the resurrection occurs at that time. You say the resurrection occurs "as a result of what happens at that time" which I don't see in the text. We shall have to just disagree here, I have a more literal approach.
    No, you are NOT more literal than me.
    IF teh Bible had said a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME then I would take it that a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME.
    However Daniel 12 does NOT say that a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME.
    Let's read it and note what DOES occur AT THAT TIME:
    Dan 12:1* “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.*
    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    You see the events of 12:1 occur AT THAT TIME.
    Yet NOTHING in verse 2 occurs AT THAT TIME.
    12:1 is related to the events of 11:
    Dan 11:29* “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

    Notice there is an appointed time for A4E.
    There is the AoD in verse 31 and note verse 32:
    Dan 11:32* He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.*
    Dan 11:33* And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.*
    Dan 11:34* When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery,*
    Dan 11:35* and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.*

    Notice what happens to them. It is a time of great challenge with temptations and tribulation. Also known as the carrot and stick.
    Notice NO ONE says that verse 35 is about a resurrection AT THAT TIME yet as I underline they are made white because of what they do AT THAT TIME.
    Dan 12:2 is simply pointing out again this important aspect. What happens AT THE TIME specified has an eternal dimension.

  3. #33
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No, you are NOT more literal than me.
    IF teh Bible had said a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME then I would take it that a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME.
    However Daniel 12 does NOT say that a resurrection occurs AT THAT TIME.
    Let's read it and note what DOES occur AT THAT TIME:
    Dan 12:1* “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.*
    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    You see the events of 12:1 occur AT THAT TIME.
    Yet NOTHING in verse 2 occurs AT THAT TIME.
    I read the Bible as it flows, not like a lawyer looking for loopholes. The deliverance that occurs at that time in verse 1, is obviously the resurrection of verse 2, and so the resurrection does occur at that time. If you don't connect the deliverance to the resurrection, you may just be missing the obvious flow of the text:


    But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    When does this event occur? At that time. Yet FHG does not think a resurrection occurs at that time.

  4. #34
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I feel you are complicating the bible, when the opening post made some simple sense of it all. For example, the 1290 days of Daniel 12 are logically in the context of events surrounding the resurrection mentioned in the same chapter. It makes no sense that they are pointing to the abomination in the earlier Greek kingdom of the Seleucids.

    And I completely disagree with your hermeneutics, the bible was written for the simple. Not the theologians who need too much complicated detail. To study to show yourself approved will manifest in a common sense view of the bible, easily understood by all.
    I don't agree that the Scriptures were written for the simple. They were written for the erudite, who could properly interpret them and divide them as they should be divided. Certainly, the *purpose* they were written was to preserve a record that could be disseminated to all, including the simple. Not all can read. Not all *like* to read. It is the truth the Scriptures represent that is for all, learned and unlearned.

    So if we look at Dan 12 you will find a reference to a Great Tribulation of the Jews, which precede the resurrection of the righteous. Bringing things thus to the resurrection of judgment means that Daniel's book has reached its apex. Then Daniel begins to summarize the book with reference to a couple of very important, still future, prophecies. These were "future" in his own time. And those prophecies were Antiochus 4 and the era of Antichrist.

    Daniel is 1st told that the conclusion of the matter happens with the 3.5 year era of Antichrist. But then, when Daniel inquires further, he is told that still "future" to him is the rise of Antiochus 4, who would prove to be a great pain to the Jewish People. This would involve a 1290 day period--clearly different from the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign.

    These are 2 matters, and not just one--both future to the time of Daniel. And so, the book of Daniel concludes with a couple of key future events in the life of Israel, the reign of Antiochus 4 and the endtime reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years. The 1290 days also is roughly 3.5 years, but is different from the 1260 days of Antichrist's reign, as given in the book of Revelation. Dan 7 depicts the reign of Antichrist as only 3.5 years. And this prophecy is different from the prophecy of Antiochus 4.

  5. #35
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't agree that the Scriptures were written for the simple. They were written for the erudite, who could properly interpret them and divide them as they should be divided. Certainly, the *purpose* they were written was to preserve a record that could be disseminated to all, including the simple. Not all can read. Not all *like* to read. It is the truth the Scriptures represent that is for all, learned and unlearned.

    So if we look at Dan 12 you will find a reference to a Great Tribulation of the Jews, which precede the resurrection of the righteous. Bringing things thus to the resurrection of judgment means that Daniel's book has reached its apex. Then Daniel begins to summarize the book with reference to a couple of very important, still future, prophecies. These were "future" in his own time. And those prophecies were Antiochus 4 and the era of Antichrist.

    Daniel is 1st told that the conclusion of the matter happens with the 3.5 year era of Antichrist. But then, when Daniel inquires further, he is told that still "future" to him is the rise of Antiochus 4, who would prove to be a great pain to the Jewish People. This would involve a 1290 day period--clearly different from the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign.

    These are 2 matters, and not just one--both future to the time of Daniel. And so, the book of Daniel concludes with a couple of key future events in the life of Israel, the reign of Antiochus 4 and the endtime reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years. The 1290 days also is roughly 3.5 years, but is different from the 1260 days of Antichrist's reign, as given in the book of Revelation. Dan 7 depicts the reign of Antichrist as only 3.5 years. And this prophecy is different from the prophecy of Antiochus 4.
    In all of that you seemed to miss the obvious truth that when names are found in the book in resurrection context , this is referring to the end of the world:
    There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

    Thereafter in Daniel 12 when timing is mentioned, it is obviously referring back to the timing of this final great event. In this context the 1290 days are mentioned.

    You can get as technical as you like, v1 and v2 are referring to the resurrection at the end of the world. And it will not be possible to convince many of us otherwise because we can read with basic English comprehension.

    You refer to the difference in time periods, a 30 day difference between the abomination and the beast is just that. Two big events, 30 days apart.

  6. #36
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In all of that you seemed to miss the obvious truth that when names are found in the book in resurrection context , this is referring to the end of the world:
    There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

    Thereafter in Daniel 12 when timing is mentioned, it is obviously referring back to the timing of this final great event. In this context the 1290 days are mentioned.

    You can get as technical as you like, v1 and v2 are referring to the resurrection at the end of the world. And it will not be possible to convince many of us otherwise because we can read with basic English comprehension.

    You refer to the difference in time periods, a 30 day difference between the abomination and the beast is just that. Two big events, 30 days apart.
    I wasn't trying to convince anybody that the resurrection isn't the "end of the world!" What I said was that beginning in ch. 12 there is a Great Distress of the Jewish People that leads to the resurrection of the righteous *and* the end of the age! How is that any different from what you're saying?

    But here is where we apparently differ. Daniel goes on, still in ch. 12, to summarize the contents of the whole book of Daniel by reiterating not just one, but two, major events. *Both* were future from Daniel's perspective--the reign of Antiochus 4 and the reign of Antichrist.

    As you can see in Dan 12, these are separate paragraphs, as such, or two separate accounts. The 1st account is a reference to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. The 2nd reference is to the 1290 days of Antiochus 4.

    These two accounts are not depicted as a single event, nor do they have to be associated with the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the age. This is a *recapitulation,* or *summary,* of the book of Daniel as a whole, as encapsulated in 2 major coming events.

    You don't have to agree, brother. And you don't have to insult me, as if I'm a "challenged reader." We're just having brotherly disagreement, right? This is my honest, heart-felt conviction, after many, many years of consideration.

  7. #37
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I wasn't trying to convince anybody that the resurrection isn't the "end of the world!" What I said was that beginning in ch. 12 there is a Great Distress of the Jewish People that leads to the resurrection of the righteous *and* the end of the age! How is that any different from what you're saying?

    But here is where we apparently differ. Daniel goes on, still in ch. 12, to summarize the contents of the whole book of Daniel by reiterating not just one, but two, major events. *Both* were future from Daniel's perspective--the reign of Antiochus 4 and the reign of Antichrist.

    As you can see in Dan 12, these are separate paragraphs, as such, or two separate accounts. The 1st account is a reference to the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. The 2nd reference is to the 1290 days of Antiochus 4.

    These two accounts are not depicted as a single event, nor do they have to be associated with the resurrection of the righteous at the end of the age. This is a *recapitulation,* or *summary,* of the book of Daniel as a whole, as encapsulated in 2 major coming events.

    You don't have to agree, brother. And you don't have to insult me, as if I'm a "challenged reader." We're just having brotherly disagreement, right? This is my honest, heart-felt conviction, after many, many years of consideration.
    Hi Randyk, I was looking and looking for the supposed insult, then I realised you must have personalised my comment about basic English comprehension. My comment was not pointed at you, but pointed at the rest of us. We can read English, we do not need to study the ECFs to see what is written in the bible and understand the obviousness contained there. I was not implying you lack basic English comprehension, I think you over-complicate things, I do not think you lack comprehension.

    Regarding your view
    Firstly: Daniel 11/12 refers to a man dying, then at that time there is distress, then at that time deliverance. I feel the phrase "at that time" gives a sense of immediacy that is lacking in your view of an extended time of distress for over 2000 years. Your view is possible, but is not the natural reading of the words "at that time".

    Secondly: Your belief would place the resurrection as a nearly unrelated addition to the prophecy. I find this unlikely that such a great culmination would just be added on to a prophecy allegedly about mainly the Greek kingdoms.

    Thirdly: Daniel 11/12 is leading up to the greatest event of those chapters, the resurrection which gets prominence in 12v1 and 12v2. Afterwards much of Ch12 focusses on timing. Timing to which event? I believe logically that event would be the greatest event of those chapters, the resurrection. Thus the 1290 days is more obviously seen in that context.

    Fourthly: Daniel 11 describes someone who comes to power and declares himself God, and persecutes the Godly, takes over the beautiful land, and dies in a battle in Israel related to the north and east, at a time of distress and a time of resurrection. Even if you believe this is a historical figure, it appears you are missing something if you do not admit the parallels with the antichrist, who is similarly boastful, dies in Israel during an attack from the northern army (Joel) and the kings of the east, (Revelation) and who dies at the time of the resurrection.

    Sure your view is possible, it just appears you are missing the obvious again and again. Sometimes intelligent people avoid the obvious., looking for something even better.

  8. #38
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I read the Bible as it flows, not like a lawyer looking for loopholes. The deliverance that occurs at that time in verse 1, is obviously the resurrection of verse 2, and so the resurrection does occur at that time. If you don't connect the deliverance to the resurrection, you may just be missing the obvious flow of the text:
    I also read it as it flows, but neither do I read it as a child but as a grown up. I can remember what was written a few sentences earlier.
    You seem to be confusing Average Joe with Joe Junior.
    The deliverance at the time is NOT the death and resurrection in verse 2.
    How does anyone say that death is deliverance?

    But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    When does this event occur? At that time. Yet FHG does not think a resurrection occurs at that time.
    AT THAT TIME is stated in regards to deliverance.
    Many of those who sleep is NOT stated as being AT THAT TIME. When someone sleeps this means they are DEAD! Death is NOT deliverance.
    Very clearly verse 2 is NOT the deliverance of verse 1.
    Instead the timing of 1290 days which says:
    Dan 12:11* And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

    So something happens 1290 days the SAME event as described in verse 31.

    Dan 12:12* Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
    Very clearly an additional blessing at that time.

    There is NO way to make this about Jesus return - for you then insert 45 days AFTER the 1290 days which is about what? Especially as most who make it future have to tie it into 1260 days.

  9. #39
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Hi Randyk, I was looking and looking for the supposed insult, then I realised you must have personalised my comment about basic English comprehension. My comment was not pointed at you, but pointed at the rest of us. We can read English, we do not need to study the ECFs to see what is written in the bible and understand the obviousness contained there. I was not implying you lack basic English comprehension, I think you over-complicate things, I do not think you lack comprehension.

    Regarding your view
    Firstly: Daniel 11/12 refers to a man dying, then at that time there is distress, then at that time deliverance. I feel the phrase "at that time" gives a sense of immediacy that is lacking in your view of an extended time of distress for over 2000 years. Your view is possible, but is not the natural reading of the words "at that time".

    Secondly: Your belief would place the resurrection as a nearly unrelated addition to the prophecy. I find this unlikely that such a great culmination would just be added on to a prophecy allegedly about mainly the Greek kingdoms.

    Thirdly: Daniel 11/12 is leading up to the greatest event of those chapters, the resurrection which gets prominence in 12v1 and 12v2. Afterwards much of Ch12 focusses on timing. Timing to which event? I believe logically that event would be the greatest event of those chapters, the resurrection. Thus the 1290 days is more obviously seen in that context.

    Fourthly: Daniel 11 describes someone who comes to power and declares himself God, and persecutes the Godly, takes over the beautiful land, and dies in a battle in Israel related to the north and east, at a time of distress and a time of resurrection. Even if you believe this is a historical figure, it appears you are missing something if you do not admit the parallels with the antichrist, who is similarly boastful, dies in Israel during an attack from the northern army (Joel) and the kings of the east, (Revelation) and who dies at the time of the resurrection.

    Sure your view is possible, it just appears you are missing the obvious again and again. Sometimes intelligent people avoid the obvious., looking for something even better.
    Brother, it has nothing to do with "intelligence." It has everything to do, as we all agree, with what Daniel is really saying to us. And it does take "above the Average Joe" to study it. It takes due diligence. Since we all have that, we just need to get our ideas out there, and consider, honestly, what ideas best fit the words. I do very much appreciate your ability to recognize my argument, to acknowledge it, and to afford it respect, even if you don't agree with it. I hope everybody here follows your model.

    So I hate repeating to you what you already know, but I have to repeat in case others are reading our particular arguments. Daniel has become a much simpler book for me to read--much easier than the book of Revelation--now that I have my views basically in order. Dan 2 and 7 basically lay out 4 major kingdoms that play a role in the march towards God's Kingdom: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Rome sees the appearance of Christ, his death, the destruction of the temple, and a Great Diaspora of the Jews until the Kingdom finally comes.

    Ch. 7 outlines the events of Antichrist. And Antichrist is not heard from again until ch. 12, where Daniel inquires about the final events of the age. He will rule for 3.5 years, which in the book of Revelation is described only as a 1260 day period (not a 1290 day period).

    Chs. 8 and 11 outline some historical events, and mark special consideration for the reign of Antiochus 4 who I think becomes a foreshadow of the Antichrist. He presents the Abomination of Desolation (AoD), which is a challenge to God's power in the temple.

    Ch. 9 and the 70 Weeks prophecy refer to the appearance of Christ at his earthly ministry. He dies after confirming the OT Law in the 70th Week, setting the stage for the Roman destruction of the temple. OT offering comes to an end with its replacement by the offering of Christ himself. (The Roman destruction of the temple is described as an AoD, as well. It is a different kind of AoD than that of Antiochus.)

    Ch. 11 is, as indicated, one of the passages outlining the reign of Antiochus 4. After his AoD an angel is called upon to protect Israel during a time of their suppression as God's People. This "Great Distress" is initiated in the time of the Roman Empire, when after 70 AD the Jewish People are deported and live in exile throughout the NT period.

    At the end of this period of Great Distress the Jewish People will be finally delivered, and the righteous will be raised from the dead. Final judgment will be rendered. This is the culmination of what had been written earlier in Daniel about the coming of the Kingdom in chs. 2, 7, and what Christ's mission was said to be in ch. 9. The resurrection is the culmination of the hope of God's People in Israel, and in the NT becomes the hope of all God's People.

    In ch. 12 Daniel inquires as to what all this means, because much of it is still future to him. And 2 major events, already explained, are reiterated to him, distinguished as 2 events so as to not be confusing. 1st, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign will take place, which will immediately precede the coming of the Kingdom. And 2nd, more immediately ahead in Daniel's future will be the approaching reign of Antiochus 4, who I believe foreshadows Antichrist. His reign will be terminated after 1290 days (different from the 1260 days of Antichrist's reign).

    Set in order these things make sense to me. The mention of the resurrection in ch. 12 does *not* appear to be an uneven placement after the reign of Antiochus and before the recapitulation/summary of events in the book of Daniel. The whole book is looking forward to the coming of the Kingdom.

    In chs. 2 and 7 the Kingdom comes following the 4 Kingdoms and the reign of Antichrist. In ch. 9 the Kingdom is prepared for by the earthly ministry of Christ. And in chs. 8 and 11 Antiochus presents an AoD that foreshadows the future reign of the Antichrist. It all leads up to the coming of the Kingdom of God, at which time the resurrection takes place, along with the judgment.

    This is Israel's salvation and our salvation. But thanks for your understanding. Though you don't agree, you at least let me put my views out there! And you do so in a very respectful/Christian way.

  10. #40
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So I hate repeating to you what you already know, but I have to repeat in case others are reading our particular arguments. Daniel has become a much simpler book for me to read--much easier than the book of Revelation--now that I have my views basically in order. Dan 2 and 7 basically lay out 4 major kingdoms that play a role in the march towards God's Kingdom: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Rome sees the appearance of Christ, his death, the destruction of the temple, and a Great Diaspora of the Jews until the Kingdom finally comes.

    Ch. 7 outlines the events of Antichrist. And Antichrist is not heard from again until ch. 12, where Daniel inquires about the final events of the age. He will rule for 3.5 years, which in the book of Revelation is described only as a 1260 day period (not a 1290 day period).

    Chs. 8 and 11 outline some historical events, and mark special consideration for the reign of Antiochus 4 who I think becomes a foreshadow of the Antichrist. He presents the Abomination of Desolation (AoD), which is a challenge to God's power in the temple.

    Ch. 9 and the 70 Weeks prophecy refer to the appearance of Christ at his earthly ministry. He dies after confirming the OT Law in the 70th Week, setting the stage for the Roman destruction of the temple. OT offering comes to an end with its replacement by the offering of Christ himself. (The Roman destruction of the temple is described as an AoD, as well. It is a different kind of AoD than that of Antiochus.)

    Ch. 11 is, as indicated, one of the passages outlining the reign of Antiochus 4. After his AoD an angel is called upon to protect Israel during a time of their suppression as God's People. This "Great Distress" is initiated in the time of the Roman Empire, when after 70 AD the Jewish People are deported and live in exile throughout the NT period.

    At the end of this period of Great Distress the Jewish People will be finally delivered, and the righteous will be raised from the dead. Final judgment will be rendered. This is the culmination of what had been written earlier in Daniel about the coming of the Kingdom in chs. 2, 7, and what Christ's mission was said to be in ch. 9. The resurrection is the culmination of the hope of God's People in Israel, and in the NT becomes the hope of all God's People.

    In ch. 12 Daniel inquires as to what all this means, because much of it is still future to him. And 2 major events, already explained, are reiterated to him, distinguished as 2 events so as to not be confusing. 1st, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign will take place, which will immediately precede the coming of the Kingdom. And 2nd, more immediately ahead in Daniel's future will be the approaching reign of Antiochus 4, who I believe foreshadows Antichrist. His reign will be terminated after 1290 days (different from the 1260 days of Antichrist's reign).

    Set in order these things make sense to me. The mention of the resurrection in ch. 12 does *not* appear to be an uneven placement after the reign of Antiochus and before the recapitulation/summary of events in the book of Daniel. The whole book is looking forward to the coming of the Kingdom.

    In chs. 2 and 7 the Kingdom comes following the 4 Kingdoms and the reign of Antichrist. In ch. 9 the Kingdom is prepared for by the earthly ministry of Christ. And in chs. 8 and 11 Antiochus presents an AoD that foreshadows the future reign of the Antichrist. It all leads up to the coming of the Kingdom of God, at which time the resurrection takes place, along with the judgment.

    This is Israel's salvation and our salvation. But thanks for your understanding. Though you don't agree, you at least let me put my views out there! And you do so in a very respectful/Christian way.
    I agree with much of what you say regarding your overview of Daniel, our main points of difference would be Dan 9 and the tail end of Dan 11. I notice you did not answer my objection about your extended "time of distress" not matching the phrase "at that time" which has a sense of immediacy, not a sense of a long period of time. How can you deal with my objections...if you do not deal with my objections?

    In certain places in the bible there are dual fulfilments, where towards the end of a prophecy there is an overlap of near events with far events. In these dual fulfilments the far event becomes a core part of the fulfilment of that prophesy. When prophets mentioned Assyria/Babylon/Egypt they never suddenly tagged on an out of context end-times event onto the wording. Your view of the Greek kingdom in Daniel 11/12 has an aside mention of the resurrection thrown in, which is inconsistent with the pattern of previous biblical prophecy about the rise and fall of nations.

    Examples of near/far prophecies in the bible are as follows:
    Genesis 3:15 predicts humans/snake interaction; double fulfilment in Satan/Jesus
    Genesis 12:2-3 Abraham's promise applies to the growth of Israel, but also to the church, all nations
    Deut 18:15-19 Joshua- but also Jesus
    2 Samuel 7:12-15 Solomon- but also reference to Jesus
    Psalm 110: King David, but also Jesus
    Psalm 132:11-18 Solomon, but also Jesus
    Zechariah 3: the branch is Joshua and also references Jesus
    Zechariah 6:12-13 refers to Joshua who is both high priest and leader, like Jesus

    In the same manner Antiochus Epiphanes is clearly of the Greek kingdom, but is described in Dan 8 as a little horn which when compared to the little horn in Daniel 7 one cannot help but see the parallels. Then in Daniel 11 you may notice that from verse 36 the events do not match Antiochus life as clearly, and start matching the future beast more clearly, and occur at the time of the resurrection.

    So yes our differences are very subtle, you agree Antiochus "foreshadows" the antichrist, I am saying that in Daniel 11 the foreshadowing is a little stronger due to resurrection context in 12v1 and 12v2. A near/far fulfiment is more common in prophecy than out of context "asides" (which never occur in prophecies about the rise and fall of kingdoms). Knowing this duality of context whenever Antiochus Epiphanes is mentioned, we should at least be open to the possibility that the 1290 days of Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 are actually referring to an end-times abomination. Especially since the 2300 evenings and mornings of Dan 8 fits well into the Antiochus situation, yet a 1290 day period has no clarity in history.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Examples of near/far prophecies in the bible are as follows:
    Genesis 3:15 predicts humans/snake interaction; double fulfilment in Satan/Jesus
    Genesis 12:2-3 Abraham's promise applies to the growth of Israel, but also to the church, all nations
    Deut 18:15-19 Joshua- but also Jesus
    2 Samuel 7:12-15 Solomon- but also reference to Jesus
    Psalm 110: King David, but also Jesus
    Psalm 132:11-18 Solomon, but also Jesus
    Zechariah 3: the branch is Joshua and also references Jesus
    Zechariah 6:12-13 refers to Joshua who is both high priest and leader, like Jesus
    Don't agree there is such a thing as a near/far or dual fulfillment in prophecy.
    One is the fulfillment, the other may be a foreshadowing, but is not what is being prophesied.

    Genesis 3:15 speaks of a change in reality, which is not then a prophecy. The other aspect is prophetic.
    Another example of this is the tabernacle Moses was instructed to build. It was a reality on earth and a shadow of what is in heaven.

    There is but one promise. Yet we are given that promise also. Not a dual or near/far prophecy. A single prophecy which has an expanded membership.

    Have no idea why you think Deut 18:15 - 19 is Joshua.

    2 Samuel 7 is about Solomon.

    Psalm 110 isn't about King David.

    Psalm 132 is about Solomon

    Zech 3 is about Joshua who are stated are a sign for another prophecy about Branch.

    Zech 6 is again about Joshua. This is like much of the above a fulfillment, which is a foreshadowing.
    These are not one prophecy fulfilled twice, but one prophecy fulfilled once but with an element of foreshadowing.
    The plagues are another example of this.
    They happened as stated and won't happen the same again yet they speak of what will happen again in a related way.

    This is a nuance of what you are claiming. SO Dan 8 and 7 are related but Dan 8 is fulfilled and Dan 7 is not yet. We can understand Dan 7 through what happened with Dan 8, but it will not be the SAME only of the type.

    So I think you are claiming more than you should.

  12. #42
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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Don't agree there is such a thing as a near/far or dual fulfillment in prophecy.
    One is the fulfillment, the other may be a foreshadowing, but is not what is being prophesied.

    Genesis 3:15 speaks of a change in reality, which is not then a prophecy. The other aspect is prophetic.
    Another example of this is the tabernacle Moses was instructed to build. It was a reality on earth and a shadow of what is in heaven.

    There is but one promise. Yet we are given that promise also. Not a dual or near/far prophecy. A single prophecy which has an expanded membership.

    Have no idea why you think Deut 18:15 - 19 is Joshua.

    2 Samuel 7 is about Solomon.

    Psalm 110 isn't about King David.

    Psalm 132 is about Solomon

    Zech 3 is about Joshua who are stated are a sign for another prophecy about Branch.

    Zech 6 is again about Joshua. This is like much of the above a fulfillment, which is a foreshadowing.
    These are not one prophecy fulfilled twice, but one prophecy fulfilled once but with an element of foreshadowing.
    The plagues are another example of this.
    They happened as stated and won't happen the same again yet they speak of what will happen again in a related way.

    This is a nuance of what you are claiming. SO Dan 8 and 7 are related but Dan 8 is fulfilled and Dan 7 is not yet. We can understand Dan 7 through what happened with Dan 8, but it will not be the SAME only of the type.

    So I think you are claiming more than you should.
    You may not see the duality, but others may. To me most of those scriptures have an obvious double fulfilment. Let us agree to disagree, and then we will have two camps. Those that see double fulfiment in prophecy and apply that principle to the Olivet discourse and Daniel 11. And those that do not.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You may not see the duality, but others may. To me most of those scriptures have an obvious double fulfilment. Let us agree to disagree, and then we will have two camps. Those that see double fulfiment in prophecy and apply that principle to the Olivet discourse and Daniel 11. And those that do not.
    Did you get the difference I was proposing and why it is important?
    If you have dual fulfillment, why not triple and any other number you care for?

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Did you get the difference I was proposing and why it is important?
    If you have dual fulfillment, why not triple and any other number you care for?
    Why argue each point when you are so obviously wrong. I need not argue my case, because any Christian can read up on each verse, meditate on it, and see a dual meaning in much of what I quoted. I will never convince you, you don't seem to admit error, but then let others just read the verses and decide for themselves if the bible is full of near/far fulfilment. And if they find that you are wrong, and they see near/far fulfilment then they can apply those principles to Daniel 11 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why argue each point when you are so obviously wrong. I need not argue my case, because any Christian can read up on each verse, meditate on it, and see a dual meaning in much of what I quoted. I will never convince you, you don't seem to admit error, but then let others just read the verses and decide for themselves if the bible is full of near/far fulfilment. And if they find that you are wrong, and they see near/far fulfilment then they can apply those principles to Daniel 11 and Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
    Where am I wrong?
    I have given a response against each, as I disagree with what you claim.
    There is no such thing as dual meaning. Instead we have a single meaning. However what has happened can then give a template or picture or understanding of something else which will happen.
    I think the KEY difference in our understanding is that a dual fulfillment requires the one prophecy to be fulfilled in the SAME way BOTH times.
    Mine is that it is fulfilled once, but then when we have a similar prophecy we can see how it was once fulfilled and so the second time will be like it.

    For example Daniel 8 speaks of A4E and the AoD.
    This has been fulfilled and there will NOT be a 1150 days in the future.
    However in the way that an abomination was set up and placed in the Holy Place by A4E, we can understand the future AoD to be similar.

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