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Thread: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

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    ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    The bible was not written for rocket scientists and theologians and students of the history of the Early Church Fathers. Each book and letter was written to average Joe, and I believe that is how we must read the chapters that mention the abomination:

    Daniel 12 describes the resurrection. When discussing timing the angel mentions the time of the end, and says 1290 days from when you see the abomination.
    average Joe would probably then associate the abomination with a 1290 day period before the resurrection.

    Daniel 8 describes an abomination in the temple, but context is clear that abomination occurs in the later part of four Greek kingdoms. Average Joe would probably look for some abomination then in the late part of the four Greek kingdoms. Sure enough Antiochus set up a statue to Zeus in the Jewish temple which upset the Jewish nation. This Greek history would then serve as a good example of what the later abomination of Matthew 24 is, some kind of image set up in the Jewish temple.

    Daniel 9:27 mentions an abomination in the middle of the last seven years of a 490 year period. The 490 year period ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). Average Joe would probably associate the abomination with an event 3.5 years before the end to sin in Jerusalem, and notice that there is still currently sin in Jerusalem. So average Joe would probably expect the abomination 3.5 years before the end of this sinful age.

    Matthew 24 refers to Daniel's abomination preceding the second coming. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel. average Joe probably wonders if the gospel has yet reached all nations, and also sees this abomination associated with the "end". and average Joe will probably notice that this occurs just before the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24. Average Joe would possibly associate this abomination with that of Daniel, a 3.5 year period before the end.

    Rev 13 talks about a 42 month (3.5 years) period of rule of the beast. But then it refers to a great image that deceives the world. This could be the abomination. Average Joe would think a great image in Jerusalem, 42 months before the end, could be the abomination.

    Rocket scientists and theologians will rethink all the logic above. Don't be like a rocket scientist, be like average Joe, go with your common sense.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The bible was not written for rocket scientists and theologians and students of the history of the Early Church Fathers. Each book and letter was written to average Joe, and I believe that is how we must read the chapters that mention the abomination:
    I agree with your basic premise. However somethings were stated directly to certain individuals.

    Daniel 12 describes the resurrection. When discussing timing the angel mentions the time of the end, and says 1290 days from when you see the abomination.
    average Joe would probably then associate the abomination with a 1290 day period before the resurrection.
    Nope the average Joe would associate the 1290 day period with the aforementioned Abomination.

    Daniel 8 describes an abomination in the temple, but context is clear that abomination occurs in the later part of four Greek kingdoms. Average Joe would probably look for some abomination then in the late part of the four Greek kingdoms. Sure enough Antiochus set up a statue to Zeus in the Jewish temple which upset the Jewish nation. This Greek history would then serve as a good example of what an abomination is, some kind of image set up in the Jewish temple.
    Indeed. So the average Joe would later look for 1290 days and 1335 days connected to THIS abomination.

    Daniel 9:27 mentions an abomination in the middle of the last seven years of a 490 year period. The 490 year period ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). Average Joe would probably associate the abomination with an event 3.5 years before the end to sin in Jerusalem, and notice that there is still currently sin in Jerusalem. So average Joe would probably expect the abomination 3.5 years before the end of this sinful age.
    Average Joe would this whole passage difficult. He would note the 70 weeks, and may consider some period of 490 days first. Joe would also wonder at the destruction of Jerusalem and how that would fit into the 70 weeks. He would probably initially think it was tied into the last week.
    However this prophecy was directed at Daniel, who was not an Average Joe, but someone who had read and understood Jeremiah, and the Word of the Lord. How many of the other Joe's did this? An Average Joe could, but we have no mention of anyone else doing so.

    Matthew 24 refers to Daniel's abomination preceding the second coming. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel. average Joe probably wonders if the gospel has yet reached all nations, and also sees this abomination associated with the "end". and average Joe will probably notice that this occurs just before the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24. Average Joe would possibly associate this abomination with that of Daniel, a 3.5 year period before the end.
    Joe would indeed connect this future AoD with the past AoD and expect something similar, and would probably also connect it with Dan 9.

    Rev 13 talks about a 42 month (3.5 years) period of rule of the beast. But then it refers to a great image that deceives the world. This could be the abomination. Average Joe would think a great image in Jerusalem, 42 months before the end, could be the abomination.
    Rocket scientists and theologians will rethink all the logic above. Don't be like a rocket scientist, be like average Joe, go with your common sense.
    Joe could easily think that.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The bible was not written for rocket scientists and theologians and students of the history of the Early Church Fathers. Each book and letter was written to average Joe, and I believe that is how we must read the chapters that mention the abomination:

    Daniel 12 describes the resurrection. When discussing timing the angel mentions the time of the end, and says 1290 days from when you see the abomination.
    average Joe would probably then associate the abomination with a 1290 day period before the resurrection.

    Daniel 8 describes an abomination in the temple, but context is clear that abomination occurs in the later part of four Greek kingdoms. Average Joe would probably look for some abomination then in the late part of the four Greek kingdoms. Sure enough Antiochus set up a statue to Zeus in the Jewish temple which upset the Jewish nation. This Greek history would then serve as a good example of what the later abomination of Matthew 24 is, some kind of image set up in the Jewish temple.

    Daniel 9:27 mentions an abomination in the middle of the last seven years of a 490 year period. The 490 year period ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). Average Joe would probably associate the abomination with an event 3.5 years before the end to sin in Jerusalem, and notice that there is still currently sin in Jerusalem. So average Joe would probably expect the abomination 3.5 years before the end of this sinful age.

    Matthew 24 refers to Daniel's abomination preceding the second coming. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel. average Joe probably wonders if the gospel has yet reached all nations, and also sees this abomination associated with the "end". and average Joe will probably notice that this occurs just before the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24. Average Joe would possibly associate this abomination with that of Daniel, a 3.5 year period before the end.

    Rev 13 talks about a 42 month (3.5 years) period of rule of the beast. But then it refers to a great image that deceives the world. This could be the abomination. Average Joe would think a great image in Jerusalem, 42 months before the end, could be the abomination.

    Rocket scientists and theologians will rethink all the logic above. Don't be like a rocket scientist, be like average Joe, go with your common sense.
    Hoping not to seem above the average Joe, I would like t point out that;
    1. Daniel admitted that some things he reported were beyond his understanding and instead of being enlightened, was told that some things concerning the end were "sealed" (12:8-9)
    2. In Matthew 24:15, concerning this matter, scripture advises, ("whoso readeth, let him understand").

    May I propose that this prophecy is not so easy for average Joe.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hoping not to seem above the average Joe, I would like t point out that;
    1. Daniel admitted that some things he reported were beyond his understanding and instead of being enlightened, was told that some things concerning the end were "sealed" (12:8-9)
    2. In Matthew 24:15, concerning this matter, scripture advises, ("whoso readeth, let him understand").

    May I propose that this prophecy is not so easy for average Joe.
    My twist on your point is that I think the Average Joe CAN understand, but will need to apply himself - especially through reading scriptures, even as suggested in Matt 24.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My twist on your point is that I think the Average Joe CAN understand, but will need to apply himself - especially through reading scriptures, even as suggested in Matt 24.
    Agreed. .

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Hoping not to seem above the average Joe, I would like t point out that;
    1. Daniel admitted that some things he reported were beyond his understanding and instead of being enlightened, was told that some things concerning the end were "sealed" (12:8-9)
    2. In Matthew 24:15, concerning this matter, scripture advises, ("whoso readeth, let him understand").

    May I propose that this prophecy is not so easy for average Joe.
    May I propose that things are not that complicated at all, and as we head towards the end-times the truth will be easy to understand for any simple person with an honest heart. Yes at that time it was all pretty mysterious, but look at some knowledge we have picked up since:

    Daniel did not have the privilege that we do , of seeing Daniel 8 unfold in the history of Alexander's four Greek kingdoms. The sheer abomination to his people of having that Zeus statue in the temple was a shock to the Jewish community of the time, hence the successful uprising and overthrow by the Jewish community as recorded in Maccabees.
    Yet the clarity does exist for us, in retrospect, with history so clearly recording the four Greek kingdoms:
    The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

    How clear is that, a great king of Greece, then four Greek kingdoms, then a wicked king from one of the four kingdoms who sets up an abomination (refer v13). Exactly what happened in the Seleucid Empire.

    The resurrection of Daniel 12 verses 1-2 is also pretty clear. Then when the angel describes timing of 1290 days from the abomination, this seems to be in context of the events leading up to the resurrection. Everything points to an abomination..... 3.5 years......THE END (resurrection/second coming). If this simple understanding means the seal is broken because we are in the end-times, then ...the seal is broken because we are in the end-times.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    It will be understood by those who study to get a working knowledge in God's Word by the help of The Holy Spirit. Intellectual study alone will not get the job done, no matter how high an IQ one has.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    It will be understood by those who study to get a working knowledge in God's Word by the help of The Holy Spirit. Intellectual study alone will not get the job done, no matter how high an IQ one has.
    In your studies, have you seen anything to contradict the simple understanding as proposed in the opening post?

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    It will be understood by those who study to get a working knowledge in God's Word by the help of The Holy Spirit. Intellectual study alone will not get the job done, no matter how high an IQ one has.
    Amen if you truly search for the true meaning and not the popular ways taugh only the Holy Spirit can reveal it to you

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree with your basic premise. However somethings were stated directly to certain individuals.


    Nope the average Joe would associate the 1290 day period with the aforementioned Abomination.


    Indeed. So the average Joe would later look for 1290 days and 1335 days connected to THIS abomination.
    It is easy to differentiate events associated with an end-times resurrection, and events associated with an ancient Greek empire. I am not sure if you associate Daniel 12:1-2 with the resurrection at the second coming, I would guess most people do .

    Average Joe would this whole passage difficult. He would note the 70 weeks, and may consider some period of 490 days first. Joe would also wonder at the destruction of Jerusalem and how that would fit into the 70 weeks. He would probably initially think it was tied into the last week.
    However this prophecy was directed at Daniel, who was not an Average Joe, but someone who had read and understood Jeremiah, and the Word of the Lord. How many of the other Joe's did this? An Average Joe could, but we have no mention of anyone else doing so.
    Yes it is a difficult passage, nevertheless v24 is more easily associated with the second coming than the first, due to its dramatic conclusive nature. I will just record it here for the neutral average Joes to meditate on:
    24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

    We could debate this forever, making the conclusion of the 490 year period a very complicated matter, but each individual must read that wording and make a choice, first coming, or second coming. And believe me you don't need a high IQ to know the symbolic possibilities with the first coming. Nevertheless it's possible that most will still see a second coming fulfilment in that verse, as I do.

    Joe would indeed connect this future AoD with the past AoD and expect something similar, and would probably also connect it with Dan 9
    Exactly


    Joe could easily think that.
    Yes the Rev 13 image of the beast in Jerusalem could be a fitting fulfilment of the abomination.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    May I propose that things are not that complicated at all, and as we head towards the end-times the truth will be easy to understand for any simple person with an honest heart. Yes at that time it was all pretty mysterious, but look at some knowledge we have picked up since:

    Daniel did not have the privilege that we do , of seeing Daniel 8 unfold in the history of Alexander's four Greek kingdoms. The sheer abomination to his people of having that Zeus statue in the temple was a shock to the Jewish community of the time, hence the successful uprising and overthrow by the Jewish community as recorded in Maccabees.
    Yet the clarity does exist for us, in retrospect, with history so clearly recording the four Greek kingdoms:
    The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power. 23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

    How clear is that, a great king of Greece, then four Greek kingdoms, then a wicked king from one of the four kingdoms who sets up an abomination (refer v13). Exactly what happened in the Seleucid Empire.

    The resurrection of Daniel 12 verses 1-2 is also pretty clear. Then when the angel describes timing of 1290 days from the abomination, this seems to be in context of the events leading up to the resurrection. Everything points to an abomination..... 3.5 years......THE END (resurrection/second coming). If this simple understanding means the seal is broken because we are in the end-times, then ...the seal is broken because we are in the end-times.
    OK. I'll grant you your view. But then you have explain to me how, on this Forum, there is so much controversy about the contents of Daniel. Even the "above average Joe's" dispute. Or, maybe the disputers are just "below average Joe's"

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. I'll grant you your view. But then you have explain to me how, on this Forum, there is so much controversy about the contents of Daniel. Even the "above average Joe's" dispute. Or, maybe the disputers are just "below average Joe's"
    That's because there are not enough average Joes, they will be walked over by the "clever people". Many people here are so knowledgeable they have written books on the subject, so they are completely committed to their preconceived end-times position. Then pride kicks in as well.

    People often refer to being "inspired" by the holy spirit. May I suggest a different way of interpreting the bible, being inspired to have the fruits of the spirit.

    You read a text, then without being swayed by what you have been taught, and without being swayed towards grand sounding theories, accept the face value of the text and abandon all previous bias.

    That's all it takes, but it is a near impossible task to remove all bias and accept face value truth. I have been trying to be honest with the text for years, but am still trying to eliminate bias towards preconceived ideas. So.... the fruit of honesty is what we need. honest with the literal face value meaning.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In your studies, have you seen anything to contradict the simple understanding as proposed in the opening post?
    I much agree with your original post, excepting Dan.8, for even it has an application about the abomination at the very end of this world too.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    It is easy to differentiate events associated with an end-times resurrection, and events associated with an ancient Greek empire. I am not sure if you associate Daniel 12:1-2 with the resurrection at the second coming, I would guess most people do .
    Dan 12:1* “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

    Daniel 12:1 for the Average Joe states "At that time..." which for Joe means the time of the events just mentioned in Dan 11. The last events in Dan 11 was A4E, so Joe who knows his history would associate that with the past.

    Dan 12:2* And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.*
    Joe would then read this and note that some of those who are caught up in the trouble of A4E will be awoke to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt.
    So Joe would see that how people of the events of a time future to Daniel reacted and responsed to God would then face a future (for them) whihc was either life or contempt.

    Yes it is a difficult passage, nevertheless v24 is more easily associated with the second coming than the first, due to its dramatic conclusive nature. I will just record it here for the neutral average Joes to meditate on:
    24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
    This gives the whole of the 70 weeks and speaks of everything that will happen by the end of that time. It isn't what the people do, but what will happen because God will do it.

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    Re: ABOMINATION and Average Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    I much agree with your original post, excepting Dan.8, for even it has an application about the abomination at the very end of this world too.
    Sure I believe there is some application of Daniel 8 to the end of the world, I regard Antiochus as a forerunner to the antichrist. But the wording of Daniel 8 precisely refers to the Greek Empire and the little horn from the four parts of the Greek Empire. Maybe you expect the Greek Empire to re-arise and break into four parts, I don't.

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