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Thread: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

  1. #76
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Would I be correct to say you said this because of Rom 11:25-36?

    I believe if we really study this we will realize that it already happened and is happening until the second coming of Christ. The blindness was already lifted at Pentecost.



    Yes Kalahari! Nailed it.

    Part of the problem here is that the different sides are talking past each other as well as misunderstanding each other at times. Not to mention the continuous mud-slinging from some.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.



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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I know. In Galatians Paul teaches very clearly why the circumcision is not necessary anymore for Jew and Gentile. The only reason to keep it is because of the law and Christ set us free from the law. In Christ the Gentiles are also part of Abraham and part of the promises made. Yet there is now no command to be circumcised, for our circumcision is of the heart, not the flesh.

    I know Jews today still do circumcision because they do not believe that their Messiah came and are still under the law. This does not make it correct.
    Oh come on. Even Christians do circumcision these days. It has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. I already told you my argument was about IDENTITY, not salvation. Is there a law now NOT to circumcise? Would you force feed an early Jewish Christian pork? Let's not get legalistic about this.

    Muslim's don't circumcise because of Moses. They do because of Abraham. That was my point, but you seem to be offended by that?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #78
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The serious problem that those who believe in a 'rapture to heaven', have is there is no real supporting scripture, so their only recourse is to attempt to discredit anyone who shows how seriously wrong that theory is.

    After several years of being on the receiving end of that kind of abuse, I don't let it bother me. Even though I have had a death threat and another rabid rapturist would have organized a lynching posse if he could have caught me.
    These things are confirmation of who is behind this awful deception, just as Satan was behind the Inquisition and all the persecutions of faithful Christians.

    I can only hope and pray that all believers can overcome their false teachings about what God has planned for our future. It IS for our good and we only need to stand strong in our faith, no matter how bad things seem to be.
    If it means I have to be an anti-Semite and boast with glee about someone's pending destruction, DO NOT pray for me.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  4. #79
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by CFJ View Post
    Very valid and important point to understand. Everything was done to exalt the good news of Christ. There is no point in doing it to exalt physical Jews. By doing that (exalting physical Jews) you make the cross of Christ of no effect (1Co 1:17).
    That's a terrible interpretation of 1 Co 1:17. No one is exalting anyone. We are commanded to love, not hate and fill ourselves with glee over the destruction of others. THAT attitude is a work of the flesh. An evil work of the flesh. I will not abide in the hate of other human beings. Period.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Would I be correct to say you said this because of Rom 11:25-36?

    I believe if we really study this we will realize that it already happened and is happening until the second coming of Christ. The blindness was already lifted at Pentecost.
    Oh well, I guess that answers why Messianic Jews exist these days. You need to re-think this. ANYONE can come to Christ at ANY TIME. Why would you want to shut the door on someone? God doesn't.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  6. #81
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    That's a terrible interpretation of 1 Co 1:17. No one is exalting anyone. We are commanded to love, not hate and fill ourselves with glee over the destruction of others. THAT attitude is a work of the flesh. An evil work of the flesh. I will not abide in the hate of other human beings. Period.
    Then what do you make of this...

    Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.



    Jude
    You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    You know...I think you've read something into this that I haven't said. NONE are in His will or will come to The Father unless and until they are born again. Christ's work on the cross was so that all and whoever believes upon Him would be saved..."for God so loved the world..."

    Israel was set apart by God before the New Covenant and led the way to Christ coming. Israel is still a part of God's plan but they are out of His will and are partially blinded ( meaning they still have faith in God the Father but reject Christ ) to the fullness of what God has done ( Christ, the cross and the New Covenant ) and revealed to us.

    Their branch ( the natural ) has been broken off and The Church ( the wild ) has been grafted in. When Christ returns they ( the remnant ) will finally accepte Him and be grafted back in.

    Until that time all who accept Christ and become born again enter The Church - Jew and Gentile alike. There is no difference between them as far as salvation and grace under the New Covenant.
    How can they have faith in God the Father Brian when Jesus says this..

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

    47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God



    Jude
    You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




  8. #83
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Since that day of Pentacost after Jesus' resurrection, GOD (not false doctrine) has been orchestrating and interplay between Israel and the Church for the benefit of both, the outworking of His divine purpose, and to glory of His Name.

    Replacement Theology destroys the foundation upon which God built His perfect plan. To wipe out one of His witnesses is, as Gameliel would say, fighting against God.

    Replacement Theology misrepresents God as one who breaks His promises. If God breaks His promises due to our actions, how can we be secure in our salvation? What then is the whole point of Romans 9-11? Why bother? At what point will the Church know that God will not replace it due to the great sins the Church as committed?

    From at least the early second Century AD, anti-Semitism has been practiced by Church leaders, and horrible anti-Semitic campaigns and polices have been launched on the sole basis that Israel has been rejected by God. How is this behavior seen by God as just? How can the Church know that it is secure after such horrible and hateful sins, of burning people at the stake - even Christians accused of witchcraft, sectarian violence and pograms that actually exceed in numbers of victims the evil works of Haman?

    Instead of provoking Israel to jealousy (Romans 11:11) anti-Semitism has provoked Israel and Christians who obey God's commandment to love our enemies to revulsion.

    Because of the few number of Jews who have joined the Church throughout the last two millennia due to this wicked anti-Semitism, we have been robbed of a people who are more familiar with Hebrew, Law and culture than Gentiles are and that is a terrible loss of God given gifts.

    So let's address the "spiritualization" of God's Word:

    1. Spiritual Israel = Spiritual Jew
    In order to justify the complete theft of God's promise to Abraham, replacement doctrine insists that the Church is spiritual Israel and its members are spiritual Jews. The typical talking point is this:

    "Since Israel are a people group by natural generation, then the Church, which is a people group by regeneration of the Holy Spirit, she may be referred to as "Spiritual Israel," "True Israel," "Israel of God," etc.

    Yet Paul lays out that the Church does not replace Israel. There is no getting around this without butchering Paul's context. Therefore none of the above designations are accurate.

    Before Scripture is reverenced, there are some basic truths one must accept:

    1. "Spiritual" is never used in the Bible in conjunction with one's ethnic origins.
    2. "Spiritual" is never used in the Bible as a reference to a believing Gentile being a "spiritual Jew."
    3. "Spiritual" is used **ONLY** in reference to someone who has a mature walk in the Lord without any regard to their ethnicity.

    (1 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 3:5, Galatians 6:1)

    The first Christians were Jews. How does it make sense then that the Church can be called "Spiritual Israel" with all its members "Spiritual Jews?"

    Romans 2:23-29
    "You how boast in the Law, through your breaking of the Law, do you dishonor God? For 'THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,' just as it is written. For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will be not judge you through having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

    Look at verse 29: "But he is a Jew is one inwardly." Is there any indication here that a believing Gentile is an inward Jew? Well, we need context, not proof text.

    There are three keys in understanding this passage.
    1. The passage is a continuation of a major theme in chapter 2 - that blessing and curses from God fall upon people without regard as to their ethnicity, but the contingency is the state of their hearts toward God.

    2. Paul was addressing Jews who did not believe.

    3. The doctrine of Judaism of that era believed that both Jews and Gentiles had to conform to God's requirements (circumcision) to enter the Kingdom.

    Paul refutes #3. by stating that inner circumcision determines entry into the Kingdom.

    In summary: "Jews were called out by God to be a people circumcised in heart; but though you are Jews by birth, you are not true to your calling because you are not circumcised in heart."

    Note again - NO reference to Gentiles.

    Romans 4:11-17
    "....and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist."

    The foundation of the New Covenant is the covenant that God made with Abraham. Those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. (Galatians 3:9). Abraham is the father of all Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus. Yet verse 12 states that Abraham was the father of circumcision to both Jews and Gentiles who follow in the steps of Abraham's faith. But note Paul says "OUR Father Abraham." Does a Gentile's faith relate to Abraham before he was circumcised and does a Jew's faith related to Abraham after he was circumcised? Paul makes that division for a reason.

    Paul explains that Abraham's outward circumcision was a sign and a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had while he was uncircumcised. Paul didn't say it changed Abraham's ethnicity. So how can Gentiles claim otherwise?

    Paul says "A father of many nations I have made you." Paul was concerned about the inward circumcision, yet he quoted God's promise to Abraham as "many nations," not "one" nation. The ONLY way this makes sense is if Abraham is the father of faithful Jews, Arabs, Chinese, Brits, Germans, Poles....etc. Paul wasn't even remotely considering all these ethnic people groups as being "True Jews."

    Romans 9:1-8

    I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh who are Israelites......But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but 'Through Isaac your descendants will be named.' That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

    Paul seems to be saying that those who are of the nation of Israel do not constitute the entire nation, but that there are those who are not of the nation who are also part of the nation of Israel. Even if we look at the literal translation (Young's) "not all who are of Israel are these Israel" - we begin with the entire nation and subtract. Note Paul does not add to the nation, or does he replace it. Also, is the statement subtracting people inwardly or physically? It doesn't say.

    But Paul's major concern here is the salvation of all Israelites.

    Back to Romans 11 now. Is the tree Israel?

    Consider-
    - Paul is talking to Gentiles
    - Paul is speaking about physical Israel
    - Paul identifies his audience (Gentiles) as being "cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and being grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree."
    - Believing Jews and believing Gentiles are presently attached to the cultivated olive tree. Paul says "some" Jewish branches were broken off, not all.
    - Gentiles are partakers with believing Jews "of the rich root of the olive tree"
    - The tree is a place of blessing, providing nourishment to those who are attached.

    Is the tree Isreal?

    No. Israel owns the tree. One can not be owned by themselves. If Israel is physical as the passage calls it to be taken, then Israel does not own physical Israel - God owns it. Joel speaks to this in 3:2 "My people and My inheritance, Israel."

    If Israel is taken to represent believers, Israel does not own it's own believers - God owns believers.

    If the tree is not Israel, Paul does not imply that believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel in any sense, nor does Paul even imply Gentiles have been added to Israel in any passage. Neither does Paul say the Church is Israel in any sense or has replaced Israel.

    Neither can the tree be Christ, the Gospel or the Church because Israel doesn't own any of that. What is the tree then? The tree is something that Israel owns that brings great blessings to Jews and Gentiles. Israel owns the unconditional covenants that God has made with them - Romans 9:4 "...to who belongs....the covenents..." - but not exactly because Israelites can not be broken off of unconditional covenants. Unconditional means unconditional. Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and all Israel is saved (Romans 9:25-26) the covenants remain.

    What can be pulled out without contradicting the Bible is this: The cultivated olive tree is the place of spiritual blessing for both Jewish and Gentile believers who are partakers on the basis of faith in Christ.

    Then we read "all Israel will be saved" after the fullness of the Gentiles.

    Really? If the church replaced Israel, why does the church need saving? That's the climax of Paul's long dissertation? That's absurd. So what can be taken from this passage that doesn't contradict Scripture? If all of Israel will be saved, then God has not rejected Israel.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Then what do you make of this...

    Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    let me read it in English first....

    4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    Jesus is rebuking the behavior of Christian church. What do you make of it without adding your own personal doctrine to it?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  10. #85
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You may be correct since Jesus was born a Jew

    Anti-semites have the spirit of the antichrist for sure .
    What was it that Jesus, a Jew said about His fellow Jews?
    The Kingdom is taken from you..... Matthew 21:43
    Those born to the Kingdom will be thrown out.... Matthew 8:11-12
    Those who call themselves Jews, but are not; they belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9


    I have posted before on this forum, the many prophesies that plainly state the forthcoming virtual demise of the House of Judah. That truth excited an lot of abuse of me from people whose false beliefs were challenged.
    If you want to call me an anti-Semitic, then you must call Jesus one too.

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What was it that Jesus, a Jew said about His fellow Jews?
    The Kingdom is taken from you..... Matthew 21:43
    Those born to the Kingdom will be thrown out.... Matthew 8:11-12
    Those who call themselves Jews, but are not; they belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9


    I have posted before on this forum, the many prophesies that plainly state the forthcoming virtual demise of the House of Judah. That truth excited an lot of abuse of me from people whose false beliefs were challenged.
    If you want to call me an anti-Semitic, then you must call Jesus one too.
    Paul called himself a Jew - is he of the synagogue of satan? See how ignorant your proof-texting is? Once again, you are proof-texting to justify your bigotry.

    What do you think Paul means that "all of Israel will be saved" after the fullness of the Gentiles?

    That the Church, who you claim replaces Israel will be saved? How absurd is that?

    I have two posts in this thread that exposits Scripture that addresses all your false doctrine, as YOU requested. Why then the hit and runs? Go ahead, address my posts with reasoned, contextual Scriptural expositories instead of proof texts taken out of context as you seem accustomed to do.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  12. #87
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What was it that Jesus, a Jew said about His fellow Jews?
    The Kingdom is taken from you..... Matthew 21:43
    Those born to the Kingdom will be thrown out.... Matthew 8:11-12
    Those who call themselves Jews, but are not; they belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9


    I have posted before on this forum, the many prophesies that plainly state the forthcoming virtual demise of the House of Judah. That truth excited an lot of abuse of me from people whose false beliefs were challenged.
    If you want to call me an anti-Semitic, then you must call Jesus one too.
    When I read the entire passage in Matthew 21 where Jesus is talking to the religious leadership - that's what I see. He is talking to the religious leadership of the day and telling them that if they keep rejecting him that they would not be the religious leaders of the kingdom of God anymore - someone else would.

    What I don't see is where Jesus is talking about a "virtual demise" of the House of Judah.

    The same thing with Matthew 8. I don't see Jesus telling these men that Jews as Jews will be cast out. He is using the faith of the Centurion soldier to help them understand that people from ALL nations will be saved. He is telling them something that their ethnicity is not an automatic claim to the kingdom of God. Some of them banked on that and they were wrong.

    A "virtual demise" sounds like your are saying that Jesus was saying that all Jews will perish and the nation will perish.

    Countless Jews have come to Christ. Countless more will. Some of those very men he was talking to were eventually saved - read Acts 15.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    let me read it in English first....

    4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    Jesus is rebuking the behavior of Christian church. What do you make of it without adding your own personal doctrine to it?
    What was the practice of the Nicolaitans?
    It was what Balaam incited the Israelites to do; sexual immorality.
    So the Church today is more and more condoning homosexuality and adultery, Judgement is coming and only righteous individuals will be saved.

    What his has to do with the Peace Plan, I can't fathom!

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    When I read the entire passage in Matthew 21 where Jesus is talking to the religious leadership - that's what I see. He is talking to the religious leadership of the day and telling them that if they keep rejecting him that they would not be the religious leaders of the kingdom of God anymore - someone else would.

    What I don't see is where Jesus is talking about a "virtual demise" of the House of Judah.

    The same thing with Matthew 8. I don't see Jesus telling these men that Jews as Jews will be cast out. He is using the faith of the Centurion soldier to help them understand that people from ALL nations will be saved. He is telling them something that their ethnicity is not an automatic claim to the kingdom of God. Some of them banked on that and they were wrong.

    A "virtual demise" sounds like your are saying that Jesus was saying that all Jews will perish and the nation will perish.

    Countless Jews have come to Christ. Countless more will. Some of those very men he was talking to were eventually saved - read Acts 15.
    Exactly - Jesus is speaking to the "seat of authority" responsible for administering the covenant, not all Jews.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What was the practice of the Nicolaitans?
    It was what Balaam incited the Israelites to do; sexual immorality.
    So the Church today is more and more condoning homosexuality and adultery, Judgement is coming and only righteous individuals will be saved.

    What his has to do with the Peace Plan, I can't fathom!
    The Church is not Israel. Never was, never will be.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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