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Thread: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

  1. #46
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    [I]Moving up a bit, we read that Apostle Paul circumcised Timothy because Timothy had a Jewish mother, and was a requirement for the Abrahamic covenant. (Genesis 17). By contrast, Paul REFUSED to circumcise Titus because he didn’t have any Jewish lineage. From this we can understand Paul’s doctrine of the New Covenant: “If one has a Jewish mother and Gentile father, he (or she) identifies with the nation of Israel as the one nation they identify with and are considered an Israelite in God’s eyes. So we know that Paul himself made a distinction of Jewish identity in the New Covenant.
    .
    I do not see this the reason for Timothy's circumcision. Paul wanted to use Timothy to preach in the Synagogue for having a Jewish mother he could preach there, but if he was not circumcised they would not have allowed him. Paul wanted to use Timothy for the unbelieving Jews and his reason for circumcision is the same as in the following verse.

    1Co 9:20 While working with the Jews, I live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them.

    Titus was not circumcised for it is not necessary for a believer to be circumcised. Here Paul was speaking to believers and it was decided that circumcision was not something believers would have to do. Titus could never preach in the Synagogues for the Jews, so there was no need for him to be circumcised. It had nothing to do with your ancestry for you to be circumcised or not, for in the New Covenant there is no difference between Jew or Gentile.

    I think you have to rethink this again.

  2. #47
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not see this the reason for Timothy's circumcision. Paul wanted to use Timothy to preach in the Synagogue for having a Jewish mother he could preach there, but if he was not circumcised they would not have allowed him. Paul wanted to use Timothy for the unbelieving Jews and his reason for circumcision is the same as in the following verse.

    1Co 9:20 While working with the Jews, I live like a Jew in order to win them; and even though I myself am not subject to the Law of Moses, I live as though I were when working with those who are, in order to win them.

    Titus was not circumcised for it is not necessary for a believer to be circumcised. Here Paul was speaking to believers and it was decided that circumcision was not something believers would have to do. Titus could never preach in the Synagogues for the Jews, so there was no need for him to be circumcised. It had nothing to do with your ancestry for you to be circumcised or not, for in the New Covenant there is no difference between Jew or Gentile.

    I think you have to rethink this again.
    If your reasoning is correct Paul would not have rebuked Peter for refusing to dine with Gentiles when other Jews were present.

    I think you need to rethink this

  3. #48
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    If your reasoning is correct Paul would not have rebuked Peter for refusing to dine with Gentiles when other Jews were present.

    I think you need to rethink this
    Because of this reasoning Paul rebuked Peter. Remember those Jews were believers, followers of Christ.

    This was the same reason why Paul refused Titus to be circumcised. The brethren who insisted on this was false, they have made circumcision a salvinic action, they professed to be Christian but were not. For that reason did Paul not allow the circumcision of Titus for those Jews were not Jews of faith anymore, but false believers.

  4. #49
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    Actually there were faithful people from all tribes that joined with Israel:
    2 Chron 35:18
    And there was no passover like to that kept in Israel from the days of Samuel the prophet; neither did all the kings of Israel keep such a passover as Josiah kept, and the priests, and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel that were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
    Yes; probably thousands did escape the Assyrians, they joined Judah and became Jews. Just as many do today, converting to Judaism and becoming Israeli citizens.
    But the majority of the Northern tribes were taken away, exiled to the Caucasus region and we have historical books like Tobit, that tell about them.
    The Jewish people simply do not fit the 'many as the sands of the sea', and the other Blessings prophesied by Jacob and Moses to the other ten tribes. That they remain scattered among the nations, is a fact and only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9
    This secret of God doesn't really concern us, because as Christians, we can be assured of grafting into the Olive Tree of Jesus through our faith and ethnicity does not matter to us.
    Keck tries to make out it does, for his own reasons, but scriptures like Ephesians 1:11-18 cannot be denied.

  5. #50
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Because of this reasoning Paul rebuked Peter. Remember those Jews were believers, followers of Christ.

    This was the same reason why Paul refused Titus to be circumcised. The brethren who insisted on this was false, they have made circumcision a salvinic action, they professed to be Christian but were not. For that reason did Paul not allow the circumcision of Titus for those Jews were not Jews of faith anymore, but false believers.
    We can disagree on this. Either way, that doesn’t destroy Jewish identity.

  6. #51
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    We can disagree on this. Either way, that doesn’t destroy Jewish identity.
    I never opposed Jewish identity. They are just such an identity as American or South African and in need of the grace of God.

    Yes, we can disagree, but I am curious on what grounds.

  7. #52
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes; probably thousands did escape the Assyrians, they joined Judah and became Jews. Just as many do today, converting to Judaism and becoming Israeli citizens.
    But the majority of the Northern tribes were taken away, exiled to the Caucasus region and we have historical books like Tobit, that tell about them.
    The Jewish people simply do not fit the 'many as the sands of the sea', and the other Blessings prophesied by Jacob and Moses to the other ten tribes. That they remain scattered among the nations, is a fact and only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9
    This secret of God doesn't really concern us, because as Christians, we can be assured of grafting into the Olive Tree of Jesus through our faith and ethnicity does not matter to us.
    Keck tries to make out it does, for his own reasons, but scriptures like Ephesians 1:11-18 cannot be denied.
    Wrong. We are grafted in THROUGH the root, AS WILD SHOOTS AMONG THE OTHERS, where some others have been broken off.

    The final warning to you is NOT TO BE ARROGANT. But your posts are the epitome of arrogance.

    “.....some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    And why are you commanded not to be arrogant?

    “22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!”

    You talk about being surprised? Do you want to get to the place where you discover you were cut off cut off for your arrogance?

    You had better find a way to love your enemies and pray for them before it’s too late.

  8. #53
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I never opposed Jewish identity. They are just such an identity as American or South African and in need of the grace of God.

    Yes, we can disagree, but I am curious on what grounds.
    Just on the circumcision detail. It’s part of Jewish identity; not part of salvation. I think we agree on that?

  9. #54
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Just on the circumcision detail. It’s part of Jewish identity; not part of salvation. I think we agree on that?
    Circumcision is not part of Jewish identity, but because the law of Moses demands it. If you want to be obedient to the law, you had to be circumcised.

    Lev 12:1 The LORD gave Moses the following regulations
    Lev 12:2 for the people of Israel. For seven days after a woman gives birth to a son, she is ritually unclean, as she is during her monthly period.
    Lev 12:3 On the eighth day, the child shall be circumcised.


    Act 15:1 Some men came from Judea to Antioch and started teaching the believers, "You cannot be saved unless you are circumcised as the Law of Moses requires."

    Here we see that they falsely wanted to make it part of salvation.

    Are we on the same page?

  10. #55
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    I understand that in context of Moses, some wanted circumcision because that was part of the conversion for a proselyte (I read somewhere that “circumcision” was also an idiom for the entire conversion to include ritual cleanliness for temple access) and in that context we are on the same page there.

    Circumcision was connected to Abraham in my post. That is the context I tried to establish (and apparently failed to).

    And no, it’s not part of salvation anymore than infant Baptism is.

  11. #56
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    There is much Bible prophecy yet to be fulfilled, the Word of the Prophets will set everything straight.
    You ignored every verse I posted. Communicating with you is a complete waste of my time.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Circumcision is not part of Jewish identity, but because the law of Moses demands it. If you want to be obedient to the law, you had to be circumcised.
    Circumcision predates the "law of Moses" (as if it came from Moses and not God). Abraham was the first Jew, and he was circumcised.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Yeah, this is a real problem. When God talks about punishing "Israel", he reads it as being "ethnic Israel". When God talks about rewarding "Israel", he reads it as "spiritual Israel". Basically, the meaning of any word is fluid, and means whatever Keraz needs it to mean in order to vindicate his belief system.

    That his belief system rejoices over human suffering is quite sad.
    There used to be much more Christians who believed that, I think 1948 — and of course the horrors of WW2 preceding it — was a turn for many, but not all sadly, as we see here. Spiritualization is probably the worst way of dealing with God's word.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Circumcision predates the "law of Moses" (as if it came from Moses and not God). Abraham was the first Jew, and he was circumcised.
    That’s the point I was trying to make

  15. #60
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    Re: The Israel Palestine Peace Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Spiritualization is probably the worst way of dealing with God's word.
    It can be used to write off anything. And it has.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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