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Thread: When did the Comforter come?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why should Nicodemus have known about the NT rebirth? Where was it taught to him in the Scriptures?
    Well, I gave you two places, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Then there's being dead to God because of the first sin and needing to be made alive, also in Ezekiel. Jesus said this to the Jews in the prodigal son parable concerning their position and condition, do you think it was odd? Jesus ripped Nic because like a good Pharisee he didn't recognize man's spiritual position and condition.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I agree and methinks we agree. However let say and ask.

    Before the foundation of the world, the first man, Adam and all after him, were going to need to be redeemed. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8 Redeemed by the blood of Christ, as of a lamb, foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:7,8

    Would it be correct to say Jesus the last Adam was saved from death? That the following applied to the Christ? Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: (Gk Sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah Ps 116: 3, 8 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the (birth) pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. Acts 2: 24, 31 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

    Is firstborn from the dead a birth?

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33

    Was Jesus the son of God born of woman, from death, renewed of Holy Spirit, incorruptible?

    Did John 3:3,5 apply to Jesus in the days of his flesh?


    BTW I feel you have studied this much more than me. I just post what comes to mind, usually having to google thoughts in order to find the scriptures.
    As promised, some comments on your questions. But first I must say that we are deviating a bit from the Holy Spirit as Comforter and when He was given. But the questions you have posed are good ones. So let us deal with death.

    In many Christian circles, in an attempt to explain why Adam did not die "In that day" that he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and went on to live 930 years bring forth a number of generations, they INVENTED a thing called "spiritual death". So let us lay it to rest. The Bible NEVER uses the phrase, NOR the concept of "spiritual death". This is simply because the spirit of man CANNOT DIE. It is the breath of God for human vitality and at physical death (the one where a man stops breathing), the spirit of man returns to God to wait for the resurrection (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Some students of the Bible will refer you to Ephesians 2:1 which says; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." They will say; "See ... Paul is talking to living men who are dead, so it must be their spirits that are dead." But in this they ignore that it says "dead IN your sins". They, in their minds, to uphold their thesis, change it to, "dead BECAUSE of your sins". But there is a huge difference between "IN" and "BECAUSE"!

    The best way to understand this is to look at other examples of being "IN" something. Take Ephesians 1:3 and/or Ephesians 2:6, which sread severally;
    3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings IN heavenly places IN Christ"
    6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together IN heavenly places IN Christ Jesus"


    Now, we all know that none of the people Paul was addressing were IN heavenly places. They are "AT Ephesus" (Eph.1:1). So, in what way are they IN heavenly places? It is because we were and are IN Christ. In John 12:24 our Lord Jesus is said to be a SEED. And this SEED must fall into the ground and die if it wants to bring forth "much fruit". The principle that God works with will all living things is by their SEED. And IN the seed of any plant or animal is the WHOLE GENERATION of that plant or animal. You and I were IN Adam. That is, in his loins was a SEED that GENERATED the whole human race. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:22 can say; "For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive." Adam's SEED carried his polluted nature, and because we all were IN him, in his loins, we have the same pollution - the same disadvantage as him. In this very same way, because we are IN Christ we are counted as being in the same place and having the same advantages as Him.

    So let us, with no further comment, lay to rest the un-Biblical concept that a man's spirit can die. To be dead "IN" one's sins and trespasses, means that you carry the consequences, the results, of your POSITION. The rebirth in John 3:3 is NOT because a man's spirit has died and must be reborn. It is that the spirit of man must undergo AN ADDITIONAL birth. That is why the Holy Spirit recorded the conversation with Nicodemus. He was of the idea that a man must be born from the womb AGAIN. This is not so, says the Lord Jesus. He must, IN ADDITION to being born from the womb ALSO be born from the Holy Spirit.

    Next, we must address the Second Death, to explain it and get it out of the way of your questions. The Second Death is also called "Perdition", the "Lake of Fire" and "Gehenna". So our Lord Jesus defines the Second Death in Matthew 10:28; "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA". So "Gehenna" - or the Lake of Fire, or the Second Death, is when a LIVING man (for he has his BODY) lives in a CONDITION of terrible pain BOTH in his SOUL and his BODY. Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:43-44 define it.
    43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into GEHENNA, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."


    The Second Death is the CONDITION of a LIVING man who is in terrible pain BOTH in SOUL and in BODY. And, as you can see in every case where GEHENNA is mentioned, it is because of a man's SINS (plural).

    Now we address physical death. This is the one you meant in your questions. Physical death is the WAGES of SIN (singular) (Rom.6:23). The Bible makes a difference between SIN (singular) and SINS, or TRESPASSES (plural). The one is the thing that Adam did and which is passed on by his polluted seed to all me. Romans 5:12 says; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". Adam, and all men after him are headed for physical death. The unborn baby has never committed sins or trespasses still can die in its mother's womb.

    But there was one exception to this - our Lord Jesus. In our verse in Romans 5:12 it says "by one MAN sin entered the world". Our Lord Jesus, because He came form Mary, is 100% MAN. But the "MAN-seed" did not come from Adam. It came from the Holy Spirit (Matt.1:18; Lk.1:35). So our Lord Jesus did not have the pollution, the sin-nature we all inherit from Adam. So, if our Lord Jesus so chose, He would have been alive today. But the minute He agreed to take our sin and sins upon Himself, He was doomed to die. 2nd Corinthians 5:21 says; "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Imagine a haversack full of all the world's sin and sins. It is placed on Jesus back. This sin and these sins are not committed by Him, neither are they part of His nature, but he carries them. And, so, just like any other man then, He must die. And this He did - just like any other man.

    Now, contrary to popular doctrine, when a man dies his body corrupts and returns to the elements of the earth (Gen.3:19). His spirit returns to God Who made it to wait fro the resurrection. His soul goes to a place in the "heart of the earth" called Hades (in the Greek, or Sheol (in the Hebrew). The soul is the man. after Genesis 2:7, where it says "man BECAME a living SOUL", man is always called a soul. When our Lord Jesus died, His body went to a tomb, his spirit went to God (Lk.23:46), but He says that He would be where the criminal would be. What this shows is that the man is a soul and what ever happens to the soul, happens to the man. So besides your verse from Psalm 49:15, many others like 16:10, 86:13 amd 89:48 all show that the soul of man is in Sheol, and concerning our Lord Jesus, Acts 2:28-31 could not be clearer. David is still in Hades, but our Lord Jesus was NOT left in Hades. He is RISEN (because Hades is below us).

    And so your question is answered. Is resurrection a "birth"? It is PRIMARILY the rejoining of body, soul and spirit. BUT ... the body is new. It is not made a different way. It is still of the elements of the earth. Even our Lord still had His wounds in resurrection. But the new body is NOT from the womb of your mother. It is constructed in heaven. "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2nd Corinthians 5:1-2). In that, it is newborn. It is "newborn" in ORIGIN, but not elementally.

    Now, it is clear that the WHOLE Tri-une God was involved in the resurrection of Jesus. In Acts.2:32, GOD raised up Jesus. In Romans 8:11, the Holy Spirit raised up our Lord Jesus. And in John 10:18 our Lord Jesus raised Himself. This brings us to your question about Colossians 1:18. In TIME, our Lord Jesus was not the first one raised from the dead. In 1st Kings 17 Elijah was instrumental in raising a boy. This was some 700 years before Jesus was raised. So how can scripture tell us that Christ is the Firstfruits of the dead? The answer is alluded to in 1st Corinthians 15:45; "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." The words "was made" (some translations have "BECAME") indicate that our Lord Jesus was, at some time NOT the "life-giving spirit". He has to be "made" it, or had to "BECOME" it. What does this mean? Did not Jesus, Second Person of the Godhead, coexistent with the Father from eternity, and containing all the power of God, HAVE THE POWER TO RAISE THE DEAD? Why did He have to BECOME the Raiser of the dead?

    What happened was that our Lord Jesus, Second Person of the Godhead, became a Man, and went through the full experience of men on this earth INCLUDING death and resurrection. Death is totally foreign to God for God is Life. God cannot die, but in that our Lord Jesus became a Man and EXPERIENCED death in His HUMANITY, He, being eternal Himslef as well, COULD AD THE EXPERIENCE OF HUMAN DEATH AND HUMAN RESURRECTION TO HIS ETERNALNESS. What was an event in TIME, when added to God, becomes ETERNAL. Just like salvation. In Hebrews 5:9 we have the whole process. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him". Let us break up the achievements of Christ in this verse;
    • "being made" - He was not before, but now is - a process
    • "perfect" - the Greek word means "he accomplished", "he finished", "he consummated", "he filled up"
    • "author" - the Greek word means "initiator" or "architect". He invented it and brought it into being
    • "eternal" - "Eternal" is different to everlasting. "Everlasting" means it had a beginning but lasts forever. "Eternal" means it has no beginning and no end. But did not salvation start at the cross of Golgotha? YES! But once an eternal Person had done it, and it was added to Him, it became eternal

    So also death and resurrection. Our Lord Jesus went through the experience IN TIME. But once the experience was His, IT BECAME ETERNAL. So;
    • Our Lord Jesus IN DEATH is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
    • Our Lord Jesus IN RESURRECTION is the FIRSTFRUITS of the dead
    • Our Lord Jesus IN HIS HUMANITY was "before Abraham He WAS" (Jn.8:58)
    • Our Lord Jesus, AS CREATOR was the "firstborn of the creature" (Col.1:15)

    Now, in closing, we can return to the COMFORTER and explain another verse - John 7:39. It says;

    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    I have put the word "given" in blue because it does not appear in the original text. The verse literally is;

    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not YET; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    Now you can see the problem. "NOT YET" means that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit did not exist before our Lord Jesus was glorified! WHAT SHALL WE SAY TO THIS? Is not the Holy Spirit ETERNAL?. And was not the holy Spirit hovering over the waters LONG before Adam in Genesis 1:2? The answer is in the words; "which they that believe on him should receive". The believer does not ONLY get the Holy Spirit in all His glory as God the Eternal One, all-powerful. This Spirit IS eternal. But the believer gets the Holy Spirit WITH THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE OF HUMANITY, DEATH AND RESURRECTION ADDED TO IT. It is NOT the Holy Spirit that coexisted as the Third Person of the Godhead. It is, "THE Spirit which they that believe on him should receive". Some theologians call Him "THE Processed Spirit". Why? Because He is not only the Third Person of the godhead, and not only God Himself, BUT HE IS THE SPIRIT THAT WENT THROUGH A PROCESS OF INCARNATION, HUMAN LIVING, HUMAN DEATH, AND HUMAN RESURRECTION SO THAT HE WAS TAILOR-MADE FOR FALLEN MAN.

    How can He be called the "Comforter" if He did not know poverty? How could He be called the "Comforter" if He did not know heat and cold, persecution and rejection, hate and conspiracy, stripes and nails and thorns, death by the most awful way, and what Hades was like? When a Christian becomes born again he/she is not just saved from their sins. They become the House and Temple of the holy Spirit - a Spirit that has gone through the full palate of human life with all its pain and pleasure. He is a TRUE COMFORTER for He is TRULY equipped to understand what you have faced and what you still have to face.

  4. #19
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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Absolutely. I agree with it fully. I just did not comment because you addressed randyk. But I said within myself, "that guy (Noeb) has got it".

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?[/FONT][/COLOR]
    3- Through the shed blood of Jesus, the Spirit could finally come and remain with us , even until the end of the world.

    The Spirit came and remained upon Jesus at his baptism into Ministry , and so it comes upon us with the same message of reconciliation, breathed also to the Prophets of old.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    As promised, some comments on your questions. But first I must say that we are deviating a bit from the Holy Spirit as Comforter and when He was given. But the questions you have posed are good ones. So let us deal with death.

    In many Christian circles, in an attempt to explain why Adam did not die "In that day" that he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and went on to live 930 years bring forth a number of generations, they INVENTED a thing called "spiritual death". So let us lay it to rest. The Bible NEVER uses the phrase, NOR the concept of "spiritual death". This is simply because the spirit of man CANNOT DIE. It is the breath of God for human vitality and at physical death (the one where a man stops breathing), the spirit of man returns to God to wait for the resurrection (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Some students of the Bible will refer you to Ephesians 2:1 which says; "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." They will say; "See ... Paul is talking to living men who are dead, so it must be their spirits that are dead." But in this they ignore that it says "dead IN your sins". They, in their minds, to uphold their thesis, change it to, "dead BECAUSE of your sins". But there is a huge difference between "IN" and "BECAUSE"!
    I do think that being dead in sin is a reference to a legal position of being sentenced to death. That is, we are still alive, and yet sentenced to death. We are unredeemed.

    In ancient Israel under the Law Israel was able to live under temporary sanctions in a condition of temporary provision. They were temporarily redeemed until final redemption could come. They were sentenced to death, but had the hope of physical redemption, which is resurrection.

    But I think there is also a *condition* of spiritual death, which does not refer to actual cessation of life in a spiritual sense. As you indicate, the spirit of man does not die. Rather, it refers to a separation from God in a spiritual sense. That is, the spirit of man suffers a broken relationship with God, who is a Spirit.

    There may be a semblance of relationship between God and man in this condition, but in a broken relationship there are limits to this relationship. And so, it is called "spiritual death," because a man in this condition does not live in the image and likeness of God in a position of submission to God. If a man in this condition bears the image and likeness of God at all, it is for himself, and not for God. As such, it is spiritual death, because the man no longer bears the image of God and lives forever. He has the sentence of death, and does not merit even temporal redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    I have put the word "given" in blue because it does not appear in the original text. The verse literally is;

    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not YET; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    Now you can see the problem. "NOT YET" means that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit did not exist before our Lord Jesus was glorified! WHAT SHALL WE SAY TO THIS? Is not the Holy Spirit ETERNAL?. And was not the holy Spirit hovering over the waters LONG before Adam in Genesis 1:2? The answer is in the words; "which they that believe on him should receive". The believer does not ONLY get the Holy Spirit in all His glory as God the Eternal One, all-powerful. This Spirit IS eternal. But the believer gets the Holy Spirit WITH THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE OF HUMANITY, DEATH AND RESURRECTION ADDED TO IT. It is NOT the Holy Spirit that coexisted as the Third Person of the Godhead. It is, "THE Spirit which they that believe on him should receive". Some theologians call Him "THE Processed Spirit". Why? Because He is not only the Third Person of the godhead, and not only God Himself, BUT HE IS THE SPIRIT THAT WENT THROUGH A PROCESS OF INCARNATION, HUMAN LIVING, HUMAN DEATH, AND HUMAN RESURRECTION SO THAT HE WAS TAILOR-MADE FOR FALLEN MAN.

    How can He be called the "Comforter" if He did not know poverty? How could He be called the "Comforter" if He did not know heat and cold, persecution and rejection, hate and conspiracy, stripes and nails and thorns, death by the most awful way, and what Hades was like? When a Christian becomes born again he/she is not just saved from their sins. They become the House and Temple of the holy Spirit - a Spirit that has gone through the full palate of human life with all its pain and pleasure. He is a TRUE COMFORTER for He is TRULY equipped to understand what you have faced and what you still have to face.
    You're saying that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity, is different than the Holy Spirit as the Comforter? That is rather bizarre, and perhaps heretical. The Holy Spirit cannot be two Holy Spirits!

    When the Scriptures say the Comforter was not yet, it was an indication not that the Holy Spirit did not yet exist? Rather, it was a statement that He had not yet been given as an eternal gift to Man, through Christ. You may, however, say that the Holy Spirit did not yet exist as a " NT comforter," before He could actually comfort us with Christ's pardon.

    My belief is that spirituality from God has always been made available to man. In turning away from this spirituality man received the sentence of death.

    And yet through repentance a man may continue to live in a spiritual relationship with God under temporary provision, if he is under the Law or if he depends upon the mercy of God.

    Ultimately, a man regains the promise of eternal life when he adopts the spirituality of Christ, who is the eternal provision for the sentence of death. Thus, the Holy Spirit becomes in Christ more than a temporary provision. Rather, He becomes an eternal gift, enabling us to have an eternal spirituality and an eternal pardon for sin.

    This is what Jesus meant when he said the Comforter will come. I believe the concept of "rebirth" was present in the OT, as Noeb indicated. But the reality of an eternal pardon, together with the eternal gift of the Holy Spirit, became a reality only after Jesus' resurrection. And it took place at Pentecost.
    Last edited by randyk; Nov 13th 2018 at 07:40 AM.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I do think that being dead in sin is a reference to a legal position of being sentenced to death. That is, we are still alive, and yet sentenced to death. We are unredeemed.

    In ancient Israel under the Law Israel was able to live under temporary sanctions in a condition of temporary provision. They were temporarily redeemed until final redemption could come. They were sentenced to death, but had the hope of physical redemption, which is resurrection.

    But I think there is also a *condition* of spiritual death, which does not refer to actual cessation of life in a spiritual sense. As you indicate, the spirit of man does not die. Rather, it refers to a separation from God in a spiritual sense. That is, the spirit of man suffers a broken relationship with God, who is a Spirit.

    There may be a semblance of relationship between God and man in this condition, but in a broken relationship there are limits to this relationship. And so, it is called "spiritual death," because a man in this condition does not live in the image and likeness of God in a position of submission to God. If a man in this condition bears the image and likeness of God at all, it is for himself, and not for God. As such, it is spiritual death, because the man no longer bears the image of God and lives forever. He has the sentence of death, and does not merit even temporal redemption.



    You're saying that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity, is different than the Holy Spirit as the Comforter? That is rather bizarre, and perhaps heretical. The Holy Spirit cannot be two Holy Spirits!

    When the Scriptures say the Comforter was not yet, it was an indication not that the Holy Spirit did not yet exist! Rather, it was a statement that He had not yet been given as an eternal gift to Man, through Christ. You may, however, say that the Holy Spirit did not yet exist as a " NT comforter," before He could actually comfort us with Christ's pardon.

    My belief is that spirituality from God has always been made available to man. In turning away from this spirituality man received the sentence of death.

    And yet through repentance a man may continue to live in a spiritual relationship with God under temporary provision, if he is under the Law or if he depends upon the mercy of God.

    Ultimately, a man regains the promise of eternal life when he adopts the spirituality of Christ, who is the eternal provision for the sentence of death. Thus, the Holy Spirit becomes in Christ more than a temporary provision. Rather, He becomes an eternal gift, enabling us to have an eternal spirituality and an eternal pardon for sin.

    This is what Jesus meant when he said the Comforter will come. I believe the concept of "rebirth" was present in the OT, as Noeb indicated. But the reality of an eternal pardon, together with the eternal gift of the Holy Spirit, became a reality only after Jesus' resurrection. And it took place at Pentecost.
    I have read your reply and noted it.

    If "die spiritually" was a biblical concept, you would have easily answered me with some scriptures. I'll let my posting stand.

    As to your statement which I made bold, I don't think anybody, if they read my posting normally, would ever have come to such a conclusion. The word "heretical" is strong and personal, but my only comment is that you should once do a word study on the word "heresy" in the Bible. It means, in every case, a "division", or "party" or "sect"*. In what way, and with whom, have I made a party or sect with my explanation of the Holy Spirit Who was NOT YET until Christ was glorified? If you are hard-pressed to answer that, may I take it that you meant only to defame me?

    * "Heresy" - from Strong's <G138> (haireomai); properly a choice, i.e. a party or disunion :- heresy [which is the Greek word itself] means "sect".

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I have read your reply and noted it.

    If "die spiritually" was a biblical concept, you would have easily answered me with some scriptures. I'll let my posting stand
    I would've thought it was obvious? The relevant Scripture is the story of Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden, in which Man's relationship with God changed. It became a *broken relationship,* which is called "spiritual death" by many Christians.

    It is called "spiritual death" for the simple reason that God's fellowship with Man changed, negatively, causing Man to die. We call it "spiritual death" not because the vocabulary necessarily exists in the Bible as such, but rather, because it is Christian shorthand for the idea that man living in the flesh, or in his independent carnal nature, is living a sentence of death. He does not live by the Spirit of God, or in obedience to the word of God. He is not *spiritually alive," but rather, "spiritually dead." It is Christianese for a life lived independent of God, ignoring the word of God, and therefore not aligned with Christian spirituality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    As to your statement which I made bold, I don't think anybody, if they read my posting normally, would ever have come to such a conclusion. The word "heretical" is strong and personal, but my only comment is that you should once do a word study on the word "heresy" in the Bible. It means, in every case, a "division", or "party" or "sect"*. In what way, and with whom, have I made a party or sect with my explanation of the Holy Spirit Who was NOT YET until Christ was glorified? If you are hard-pressed to answer that, may I take it that you meant only to defame me?
    You said: "
    "NOT YET" means that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit did not exist before our Lord Jesus was glorified! "
    I'm definitely *warning* you in the sense that you're using words that come dangerously close to saying the Holy Spirit is not divine and eternal. You must qualify the idea that the Holy Spirit is "not yet" to mean "He has not yet come to give Christian comfort, because Christ had not yet come," or something to that effect.

    If you're saying that the Holy Spirit did not exist prior to Christ's Coming then you're definitely heretical. I hope you believe in the eternal Spirit of God? So, when you say the Holy Spirit was not yet the "Comforter," what do you mean--that the Holy Spirit was someone other than the "Comforter" before Jesus rose from the dead?

    I'm saying you need to explain poorly-phrased statements, brother. We all do, because we must not lead the naïve to suspect that God--all 3 Persons--are anything other than the eternal God!

    I do agree that God did not exist in the form of Jesus before Jesus was incarnated. And I do not believe the Holy Spirit existed in the form of a specifically *Christian* comforter until Christ actually rose from the dead!

    But I would never say that Jesus did not exist prior to the Incarnation. And I would never say that the Holy Spirit did not exist prior to His role as Christian Comforter. Indeed, I believe the Holy Spirit applied comfort in the days of Isaiah, when that prophet said, "Comfort, comfort my people."

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    * "Heresy" - from Strong's <G138> (haireomai); properly a choice, i.e. a party or disunion :- heresy [which is the Greek word itself] means "sect".
    Just try explaining what you mean. What you said sounds like heresy. It may not be if you explain how what you said indicates the Holy Spirit is actually eternal, and never was "not yet."

  9. #24
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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I would've thought it was obvious? The relevant Scripture is the story of Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden, in which Man's relationship with God changed. It became a *broken relationship,* which is called "spiritual death" by many Christians.

    It is called "spiritual death" for the simple reason that God's fellowship with Man changed, negatively, causing Man to die. We call it "spiritual death" not because the vocabulary necessarily exists in the Bible as such, but rather, because it is Christian shorthand for the idea that man living in the flesh, or in his independent carnal nature, is living a sentence of death. He does not live by the Spirit of God, or in obedience to the word of God. He is not *spiritually alive," but rather, "spiritually dead." It is Christianese for a life lived independent of God, ignoring the word of God, and therefore not aligned with Christian spirituality.



    You said: "
    "NOT YET" means that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit did not exist before our Lord Jesus was glorified! "
    I'm definitely *warning* you in the sense that you're using words that come dangerously close to saying the Holy Spirit is not divine and eternal. You must qualify the idea that the Holy Spirit is "not yet" to mean "He has not yet come to give Christian comfort, because Christ had not yet come," or something to that effect.

    If you're saying that the Holy Spirit did not exist prior to Christ's Coming then you're definitely heretical. I hope you believe in the eternal Spirit of God? So, when you say the Holy Spirit was not yet the "Comforter," what do you mean--that the Holy Spirit was someone other than the "Comforter" before Jesus rose from the dead?

    I'm saying you need to explain poorly-phrased statements, brother. We all do, because we must not lead the naïve to suspect that God--all 3 Persons--are anything other than the eternal God!

    I do agree that God did not exist in the form of Jesus before Jesus was incarnated. And I do not believe the Holy Spirit existed in the form of a specifically *Christian* comforter until Christ actually rose from the dead!

    But I would never say that Jesus did not exist prior to the Incarnation. And I would never say that the Holy Spirit did not exist prior to His role as Christian Comforter. Indeed, I believe the Holy Spirit applied comfort in the days of Isaiah, when that prophet said, "Comfort, comfort my people."



    Just try explaining what you mean. What you said sounds like heresy. It may not be if you explain how what you said indicates the Holy Spirit is actually eternal, and never was "not yet."
    Your reply is noted. You gave no verses for your "spiritual death" ... AGAIN. The depth of your error is shown. "Spiritual DEATH" presupposes "spiritual LIFE". What spiritual LIFE did Adam and Eve have, and from where did Adam and Eve have this "spiritual LIFE" and lost it at the disobedience?

    You accused me of heresy because I posed a rhetorical question. But you are unable to show where I made a party, as per the meaning of the word "heresy". You just ignored my request. Did you even read the meaning of heresy? Shall I take it then that your accusation had no grounds and that you did intend to defame me, even though what I said did not constitute a party or sect?

    I am aware that the quality of my answer could be judged "poorly phrased". So now, may I ask for your explanation of John 7:39;

    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

    I used two paragraphs, which you did not comment on. How about and explanation of this verse by you in two paragraphs, leaving out the "given", and being accurate to the grammar. I am open to learn how any man can explain how the Holy Spirit "was NOT YET". Maybe you can add what the glorification of Jesus was, and when it happened, just to give it a time frame. Thanks.

  10. #25
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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your reply is noted. You gave no verses for your "spiritual death" ... AGAIN. The depth of your error is shown. "Spiritual DEATH" presupposes "spiritual LIFE". What spiritual LIFE did Adam and Eve have, and from where did Adam and Eve have this "spiritual LIFE" and lost it at the disobedience?
    I did answer you, with respect to where "spiritual death" is in the Bible. You completely ignored it.

    My response was that the terminology results from "Christianese," in which Christians have created a "short hand" definition of principles found in the Scriptures. And the idea of "spiritual death" originates, in the Bible, from the many, many references to the separation of God from His people, beginning from the fall in the Garden. The Law gives more than adequate evidence of the existence of this *spiritual separation* between God and Man, including even the people of Israel!

    The difference is that God's people are able, despite this separation, to come into renewed relationship with God, if not completed. So Christians refer "spiritual death" to the state of fallen Man with respect to those who have not yet come into a renewed relationship with God.

    The notion of "spiritual life" has the same kind of evolution. It is apparent from Scriptures that those who obey God's word enter into an experience of "spiritual life." Under the Law God promised "life" to those who obeyed His word. Thus, those who obey His word have *spiritual life." Those who do not have spiritual death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    You accused me of heresy because I posed a rhetorical question. But you are unable to show where I made a party, as per the meaning of the word "heresy". You just ignored my request. Did you even read the meaning of heresy? Shall I take it then that your accusation had no grounds and that you did intend to defame me, even though what I said did not constitute a party or sect?
    There are several meanings to "heresy." One of those definitions is a corrupted view of the orthodox Christian creeds. Your wording became suspect, and I was really just asking you to clarify so that you would *not* be considered a heretic! Rather than be offended at the suggestion that you *may* be heretical, why don't you just clarify so that it will be clear to all that you are not proposing heretical beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I am aware that the quality of my answer could be judged "poorly phrased". So now, may I ask for your explanation of John 7:39;

    "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
    Easy. I already gave it to you, as a possible alternate rendering of what you did say. The Holy Spirit preexisted Jesus' death, but until Jesus' death He did not yet come as a specifically *Christian* comforter. In other words, the Holy Spirit always existed, and always contained the capacity for comfort. But until Jesus died for sin the Holy Spirit could not come to guarantee us eternal life. This is far, far removed from saying the "Comforter had not existed" prior to Jesus' resurrection! I'm a person focused on orthodox Christian beliefs. Others need to be clear what we believe when what we say *sounds* heretical to some. That's all I ask of you. Up till now, I have *not* called you a "heretic!" I do consider you an orthodox brother--I just need you to clarify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I used two paragraphs, which you did not comment on. How about and explanation of this verse by you in two paragraphs, leaving out the "given", and being accurate to the grammar. I am open to learn how any man can explain how the Holy Spirit "was NOT YET". Maybe you can add what the glorification of Jesus was, and when it happened, just to give it a time frame. Thanks.
    I said:
    "You're saying that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity, is different than the Holy Spirit as the Comforter? That is rather bizarre, and perhaps heretical. The Holy Spirit cannot be two Holy Spirits! "

    What I said was that this *sounds bizarre* and is *perhaps heretical.* I've held unconsciously to aberrant beliefs myself. And so I studied the Early Church to discover what orthodox expressions of the Trinity are. It's an amazing, but difficult, indulgence, but well worth it, if you can do it.

    The only thing that is critical here is that you assert that the Holy Spirit is one of the Persons of the one Deity, and that He existed from eternity. Pretty simple. Complex explanations follow.

  11. #26
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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I did answer you, with respect to where "spiritual death" is in the Bible. You completely ignored it.

    My response was that the terminology results from "Christianese," in which Christians have created a "short hand" definition of principles found in the Scriptures. And the idea of "spiritual death" originates, in the Bible, from the many, many references to the separation of God from His people, beginning from the fall in the Garden. The Law gives more than adequate evidence of the existence of this *spiritual separation* between God and Man, including even the people of Israel!

    The difference is that God's people are able, despite this separation, to come into renewed relationship with God, if not completed. So Christians refer "spiritual death" to the state of fallen Man with respect to those who have not yet come into a renewed relationship with God.

    The notion of "spiritual life" has the same kind of evolution. It is apparent from Scriptures that those who obey God's word enter into an experience of "spiritual life." Under the Law God promised "life" to those who obeyed His word. Thus, those who obey His word have *spiritual life." Those who do not have spiritual death.



    There are several meanings to "heresy." One of those definitions is a corrupted view of the orthodox Christian creeds. Your wording became suspect, and I was really just asking you to clarify so that you would *not* be considered a heretic! Rather than be offended at the suggestion that you *may* be heretical, why don't you just clarify so that it will be clear to all that you are not proposing heretical beliefs?



    Easy. I already gave it to you, as a possible alternate rendering of what you did say. The Holy Spirit preexisted Jesus' death, but until Jesus' death He did not yet come as a specifically *Christian* comforter. In other words, the Holy Spirit always existed, and always contained the capacity for comfort. But until Jesus died for sin the Holy Spirit could not come to guarantee us eternal life. This is far, far removed from saying the "Comforter had not existed" prior to Jesus' resurrection! I'm a person focused on orthodox Christian beliefs. Others need to be clear what we believe when what we say *sounds* heretical to some. That's all I ask of you. Up till now, I have *not* called you a "heretic!" I do consider you an orthodox brother--I just need you to clarify.



    I said:
    "You're saying that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd Person of the Trinity, is different than the Holy Spirit as the Comforter? That is rather bizarre, and perhaps heretical. The Holy Spirit cannot be two Holy Spirits! "

    What I said was that this *sounds bizarre* and is *perhaps heretical.* I've held unconsciously to aberrant beliefs myself. And so I studied the Early Church to discover what orthodox expressions of the Trinity are. It's an amazing, but difficult, indulgence, but well worth it, if you can do it.

    The only thing that is critical here is that you assert that the Holy Spirit is one of the Persons of the one Deity, and that He existed from eternity. Pretty simple. Complex explanations follow.
    Thank you for your reply. Go well, and God bless.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Yes.


    If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    They had to learn of it first from a teacher that understood it. Apparently the masters of Judaism did not understand it so Christ began to teach it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples.
    Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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