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Thread: When did the Comforter come?

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    When did the Comforter come?

    John 14.15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples. But in the future He will be "in" them.

    John 20.
    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Here Jesus breathes the Spirit on his disciples, and commissions them to bring peace to Israel.

    Acts 1.
    4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,and to the ends of the earth.”

    Here Jesus fulfilils his promise to "baptize in the Holy Spirit."

    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    John 14.15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples. But in the future He will be "in" them.

    John 20.
    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Here Jesus breathes the Spirit on his disciples, and commissions them to bring peace to Israel.

    Acts 1.
    4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,and to the ends of the earth.”

    Here Jesus fulfilils his promise to "baptize in the Holy Spirit."

    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?
    A man is given TWO duties;
    1. be in the image and likeness of God
    2. subdue and rule

    (1) To be in the image and likeness of God a man can only do it one way - he must have the nature of God. So the Holy Spirit, the embodiment of all that Jesus was and did, is "breathed INTO" the disciples. "Breath" is for LIFE. At that moment in John 20:22 the disciples received the divine LIFE in their spirits (Jn.3:6). This needs, just like a child, to be nourished and coached to maturity. So John 6:54 & 63 say severally; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day", and "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    (2) For subduing the forces that oppose God's work, for the building of the Church, and for ruling the earth with a rod of iron, POWER is needed. So the disciples, once they obey the command to be Baptized in water (Act.2:38), receive POWER by being IMMERSED into the Holy Spirit. Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 say severally;
    • 49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high."
    • 8 "But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2

    1. For man to be in the image of God he must have the Holy Spirit IN him
    2. For man to do the work of God he must have the Holy Spirit ON him (like a uniform)

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A man is given TWO duties;
    1. be in the image and likeness of God
    2. subdue and rule

    (1) To be in the image and likeness of God a man can only do it one way - he must have the nature of God. So the Holy Spirit, the embodiment of all that Jesus was and did, is "breathed INTO" the disciples. "Breath" is for LIFE. At that moment in John 20:22 the disciples received the divine LIFE in their spirits (Jn.3:6). This needs, just like a child, to be nourished and coached to maturity. So John 6:54 & 63 say severally; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day", and "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    (2) For subduing the forces that oppose God's work, for the building of the Church, and for ruling the earth with a rod of iron, POWER is needed. So the disciples, once they obey the command to be Baptized in water (Act.2:38), receive POWER by being IMMERSED into the Holy Spirit. Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 say severally;
    • 49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high."
    • 8 "But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2

    1. For man to be in the image of God he must have the Holy Spirit IN him
    2. For man to do the work of God he must have the Holy Spirit ON him (like a uniform)
    Wow, Walls, where did you get all of the wisdom? Not saying I agree with everything you say, but I really enjoyed this, and can't be sure you have anything at all wrong!

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.

  9. #9

    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A man is given TWO duties;
    be in the image and likeness of God
    subdue and rule

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under
    him
    . (man)

    9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (the) obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, (? Raised from the dead ?) he became the author of eternal salvation ( ? Captain of salvation ?) unto all them that obey him;

    Is the Spirit we have been given, ultimately going to bring about our being conformed to the image of his dear Son, by this means?
    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

    At this moment in time?

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.
    I bring up Nicodemus because Jesus said he should've understood what being "born again" was. And that was *before* Jesus' death and resurrection.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A man is given TWO duties;
    be in the image and likeness of God
    subdue and rule

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under
    him
    . (man)

    9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (the) obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, (? Raised from the dead ?) he became the author of eternal salvation ( ? Captain of salvation ?) unto all them that obey him;

    Is the Spirit we have been given, ultimately going to bring about our being conformed to the image of his dear Son, by this means?
    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

    At this moment in time?

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23
    Thank you for your response. You have given crucial verses here on the matter, but you did pose two questions (which I made bold). I'm not sure if you agree with me or object. The questions could go either way. So I'll answer in as neutral way I can.

    The full salvation of any man is made up of FIVE "salvations";
    1. He must have his offenses dealt with judicially. God, being 100% righteous, MUST avenge any offense. This is never waived, and so we see the horrendous results as the world's sin and sins are heaped upon Jesus. And pay He did - magnificently, but terribly!
    2. The spirit of man, his vitality (Jas.2:26), must undergo an-OTHER, Subsequent and Additional birth by the Spirit of God (Jn.3:3-6). Man's human spirit is the Holy of Holies which was made to hold God. An unregenerate man has a spirit. This spirit gives him his vitality. But it is no different to the cows' spirits (Eccl.3:19) UNTIL God comes to live there. When God comes to live there the man becomes the Temple of God. And the Holy Spirit, starts working from this station to transform the whole man.
    3. The soul of man is his mind, emotions and his will - his thinking organ, his feeling organ and his deciding organ. From birth man's soul is self-centered. It makes thoughts, it has feelings and it decides ONLY to satisfy the screamings of the flesh. This soul of man must undergo a metamorphism. In Romans 8:29 we see it as God's plan with certain men. In 2nd Corinthians 3:18 and Romans 12:1 we see that a TRANSFORMATION process must take place. And in 2nd Peter 1:3-11 we see the whole process, starting with rebirth and ending with partaking of God's coming Kingdom of Heaven. This TRANSFORMATION of the SOUL is achieved by THREE things. (i) Eating God's Word for spiritual food. (ii) Circumstances which God allows, or even directs, to train us in certain manners. (iii) God's chastening when we are not inclined to be obedient. So, while the rebirth by faith is the beginning of a man's salvation, "the end of your faith, is the salvation of your souls" (1st Peter 1:9).
    4. The body of man is utterly corrupt and lost. God uses it now to form the members of Christ's Church (1st Cor.6:15), but it has no future and is totally unfit for the coming Kingdom on earth (1st Cor.15:50). So God lets it die and raises up the body reconstructed in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-2). Resurrection is needed for (i) a body fit for God's Kingdom, and (ii) a body fit for a "glorious Church" (Eph.5:27).
    5. Man was made by God to subdue and rule this earth and its immediate environs of sea and sky. If a man does everything right in the FOUR points above, but is not found WORTHY to be a co-king of Christ in the Millennium, he is NOT FULLY SAVED. When our Lord Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 19:25 that a man could do everything right but by not being prepared to forsake his money, he would not enter the Millennial Kingdom. But the word used by the disciples, who had been under the training of the Lord for some years, was not ENTER, or INHERIT the Kingdom. It was "who then can be SAVED?"! The four points above are all for the 5th point. But if a man falls short of being accounted "worthy of that age" (Lk.20:35), he forfeits the Kingdom and is not FULLY SAVED!

    So, the COMFORTER, the promised Holy Spirit, APPLIES salvation to a man;
    1. He convicts of sins and judgement (Jn.16:8-13).
    2. He causes the spirit of man to be RE-born Anew and from Above (Jn.3:6)
    3. He transforms a man's soul over the years of his life (2nd Cor.3:18)
    4. He resurrects us from the dead (Rom.8:11)
    5. And these four points will decide whether the believer will enter the Kingdom as a co-king of Christ

    That ... is FULL SALVATION, and everyone of your verses in your above posting, in one way or another, addressed this! Bravo!

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.
    Why should Nicodemus have known about the NT rebirth? Where was it taught to him in the Scriptures?

  14. #14

    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your response. You have given crucial verses here on the matter, but you did pose two questions (which I made bold). I'm not sure if you agree with me or object. The questions could go either way. So I'll answer in as neutral way I can.

    The full salvation of any man is made up of FIVE "salvations";
    1. He must have his offenses dealt with judicially. God, being 100% righteous, MUST avenge any offense. This is never waived, and so we see the horrendous results as the world's sin and sins are heaped upon Jesus. And pay He did - magnificently, but terribly!
    2. The spirit of man, his vitality (Jas.2:26), must undergo an-OTHER, Subsequent and Additional birth by the Spirit of God (Jn.3:3-6). Man's human spirit is the Holy of Holies which was made to hold God. An unregenerate man has a spirit. This spirit gives him his vitality. But it is no different to the cows' spirits (Eccl.3:19) UNTIL God comes to live there. When God comes to live there the man becomes the Temple of God. And the Holy Spirit, starts working from this station to transform the whole man.
    3. The soul of man is his mind, emotions and his will - his thinking organ, his feeling organ and his deciding organ. From birth man's soul is self-centered. It makes thoughts, it has feelings and it decides ONLY to satisfy the screamings of the flesh. This soul of man must undergo a metamorphism. In Romans 8:29 we see it as God's plan with certain men. In 2nd Corinthians 3:18 and Romans 12:1 we see that a TRANSFORMATION process must take place. And in 2nd Peter 1:3-11 we see the whole process, starting with rebirth and ending with partaking of God's coming Kingdom of Heaven. This TRANSFORMATION of the SOUL is achieved by THREE things. (i) Eating God's Word for spiritual food. (ii) Circumstances which God allows, or even directs, to train us in certain manners. (iii) God's chastening when we are not inclined to be obedient. So, while the rebirth by faith is the beginning of a man's salvation, "the end of your faith, is the salvation of your souls" (1st Peter 1:9).
    4. The body of man is utterly corrupt and lost. God uses it now to form the members of Christ's Church (1st Cor.6:15), but it has no future and is totally unfit for the coming Kingdom on earth (1st Cor.15:50). So God lets it die and raises up the body reconstructed in heaven (2nd Cor.5:1-2). Resurrection is needed for (i) a body fit for God's Kingdom, and (ii) a body fit for a "glorious Church" (Eph.5:27).
    5. Man was made by God to subdue and rule this earth and its immediate environs of sea and sky. If a man does everything right in the FOUR points above, but is not found WORTHY to be a co-king of Christ in the Millennium, he is NOT FULLY SAVED. When our Lord Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 19:25 that a man could do everything right but by not being prepared to forsake his money, he would not enter the Millennial Kingdom. But the word used by the disciples, who had been under the training of the Lord for some years, was not ENTER, or INHERIT the Kingdom. It was "who then can be SAVED?"! The four points above are all for the 5th point. But if a man falls short of being accounted "worthy of that age" (Lk.20:35), he forfeits the Kingdom and is not FULLY SAVED!

    So, the COMFORTER, the promised Holy Spirit, APPLIES salvation to a man;
    1. He convicts of sins and judgement (Jn.16:8-13).
    2. He causes the spirit of man to be RE-born Anew and from Above (Jn.3:6)
    3. He transforms a man's soul over the years of his life (2nd Cor.3:18)
    4. He resurrects us from the dead (Rom.8:11)
    5. And these four points will decide whether the believer will enter the Kingdom as a co-king of Christ

    That ... is FULL SALVATION, and everyone of your verses in your above posting, in one way or another, addressed this! Bravo!

    I agree and methinks we agree. However let say and ask.

    Before the foundation of the world, the first man, Adam and all after him, were going to need to be redeemed. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8 Redeemed by the blood of Christ, as of a lamb, foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:7,8

    Would it be correct to say Jesus the last Adam was saved from death? That the following applied to the Christ? Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: (Gk Sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah Ps 116: 3, 8 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the (birth) pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. Acts 2: 24, 31 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

    Is firstborn from the dead a birth?

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33

    Was Jesus the son of God born of woman, from death, renewed of Holy Spirit, incorruptible?

    Did John 3:3,5 apply to Jesus in the days of his flesh?


    BTW I feel you have studied this much more than me. I just post what comes to mind, usually having to google thoughts in order to find the scriptures.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I agree and methinks we agree. However let say and ask.

    Before the foundation of the world, the first man, Adam and all after him, were going to need to be redeemed. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8 Redeemed by the blood of Christ, as of a lamb, foreordained before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:18-20

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb 5:7,8

    Would it be correct to say Jesus the last Adam was saved from death? That the following applied to the Christ? Ps 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: (Gk Sheol) for he shall receive me. Selah Ps 116: 3, 8 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the (birth) pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. Acts 2: 24, 31 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the (birth) pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

    Is firstborn from the dead a birth?

    Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Acts 2:33

    Was Jesus the son of God born of woman, from death, renewed of Holy Spirit, incorruptible?

    Did John 3:3,5 apply to Jesus in the days of his flesh?


    BTW I feel you have studied this much more than me. I just post what comes to mind, usually having to google thoughts in order to find the scriptures.
    Hi Brother. It's midnight here and I think that in the interest of precision I should answer this tomorrow. I hope you can bear with me. Thanks and God bless

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