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Thread: When did the Comforter come?

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  1. #1
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    When did the Comforter come?

    John 14.15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples. But in the future He will be "in" them.

    John 20.
    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Here Jesus breathes the Spirit on his disciples, and commissions them to bring peace to Israel.

    Acts 1.
    4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,and to the ends of the earth.”

    Here Jesus fulfilils his promise to "baptize in the Holy Spirit."

    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?

  2. #2
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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.
    I bring up Nicodemus because Jesus said he should've understood what being "born again" was. And that was *before* Jesus' death and resurrection.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.
    Why should Nicodemus have known about the NT rebirth? Where was it taught to him in the Scriptures?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Absolutely. I agree with it fully. I just did not comment because you addressed randyk. But I said within myself, "that guy (Noeb) has got it".

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Yes.


    If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    They had to learn of it first from a teacher that understood it. Apparently the masters of Judaism did not understand it so Christ began to teach it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    John 14.15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples. But in the future He will be "in" them.

    John 20.
    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Here Jesus breathes the Spirit on his disciples, and commissions them to bring peace to Israel.

    Acts 1.
    4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,and to the ends of the earth.”

    Here Jesus fulfilils his promise to "baptize in the Holy Spirit."

    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?
    A man is given TWO duties;
    1. be in the image and likeness of God
    2. subdue and rule

    (1) To be in the image and likeness of God a man can only do it one way - he must have the nature of God. So the Holy Spirit, the embodiment of all that Jesus was and did, is "breathed INTO" the disciples. "Breath" is for LIFE. At that moment in John 20:22 the disciples received the divine LIFE in their spirits (Jn.3:6). This needs, just like a child, to be nourished and coached to maturity. So John 6:54 & 63 say severally; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day", and "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    (2) For subduing the forces that oppose God's work, for the building of the Church, and for ruling the earth with a rod of iron, POWER is needed. So the disciples, once they obey the command to be Baptized in water (Act.2:38), receive POWER by being IMMERSED into the Holy Spirit. Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 say severally;
    • 49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high."
    • 8 "But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2

    1. For man to be in the image of God he must have the Holy Spirit IN him
    2. For man to do the work of God he must have the Holy Spirit ON him (like a uniform)

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A man is given TWO duties;
    1. be in the image and likeness of God
    2. subdue and rule

    (1) To be in the image and likeness of God a man can only do it one way - he must have the nature of God. So the Holy Spirit, the embodiment of all that Jesus was and did, is "breathed INTO" the disciples. "Breath" is for LIFE. At that moment in John 20:22 the disciples received the divine LIFE in their spirits (Jn.3:6). This needs, just like a child, to be nourished and coached to maturity. So John 6:54 & 63 say severally; "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day", and "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

    (2) For subduing the forces that oppose God's work, for the building of the Church, and for ruling the earth with a rod of iron, POWER is needed. So the disciples, once they obey the command to be Baptized in water (Act.2:38), receive POWER by being IMMERSED into the Holy Spirit. Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 say severally;
    • 49 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with POWER from on high."
    • 8 "But ye shall receive POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2

    1. For man to be in the image of God he must have the Holy Spirit IN him
    2. For man to do the work of God he must have the Holy Spirit ON him (like a uniform)
    Wow, Walls, where did you get all of the wisdom? Not saying I agree with everything you say, but I really enjoyed this, and can't be sure you have anything at all wrong!

  15. #15

    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    A man is given TWO duties;
    be in the image and likeness of God
    subdue and rule

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under
    him
    . (man)

    9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    Heb 5:7-9 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he (the) obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, (? Raised from the dead ?) he became the author of eternal salvation ( ? Captain of salvation ?) unto all them that obey him;

    Is the Spirit we have been given, ultimately going to bring about our being conformed to the image of his dear Son, by this means?
    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:23
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Rom 8:11

    At this moment in time?

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23

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