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Thread: When did the Comforter come?

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  1. #1
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    When did the Comforter come?

    John 14.15 “If you love me, keep my commands.16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Here Jesus says that the Holy Spirit has already been *with* his disciples. But in the future He will be "in" them.

    John 20.
    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    Here Jesus breathes the Spirit on his disciples, and commissions them to bring peace to Israel.

    Acts 1.
    4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria,and to the ends of the earth.”

    Here Jesus fulfilils his promise to "baptize in the Holy Spirit."

    So, the Spirit has been with Jesus' disciples, the Spirit was breathed on them for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Spirit is promised to come to them for a world mission. Why, do you think, there are these 3 unique aspects of the Spirit to God's people? And why are there 3 different experiences mentioned here?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    The second was after the resurrection and he said "receive the Holy Ghost". I don't see that as "on them.. . for a mission during Jesus' earthly ministry"
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not getting a complete picture. Could you give me more of your thoughts?
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Not sure what it has to do with the topic.
    Of course not, that's the point! This was after his death and resurrection! No one was born again until then.
    I bring up Nicodemus because Jesus said he should've understood what being "born again" was. And that was *before* Jesus' death and resurrection.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Nic knew God was going to establish a new covenant, put his spirit in them, write the law on their heart and mind. Jesus wasn't saying Nic should have experienced the NC before it came.
    Why should Nicodemus have known about the NT rebirth? Where was it taught to him in the Scriptures?

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept? If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. For man to be like God he must have God's LIFE intrinsically. This happened in Resurrection Day in John 20:22
    2. For man to do God's work he must be "FURNISHED" (Lit. Gk.) with POWER. This happened on Pentecost Day in Acts 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    John 20 is when they were born again. Pentecost was just a filling like all the other fillings. Paul said born again believers should be filled.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You do realize these quotes from posts 4 and 5 say the same thing, right?
    Absolutely. I agree with it fully. I just did not comment because you addressed randyk. But I said within myself, "that guy (Noeb) has got it".

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that he should've been familiar with the concept of being "born again?"

    John 3.7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Do you think being "born again" was an Old Covenant concept?
    Yes.


    If so, why weren't the disciples "reborn" earlier, eg when they 1st began to follow Jesus?
    They had to learn of it first from a teacher that understood it. Apparently the masters of Judaism did not understand it so Christ began to teach it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Yes.




    They had to learn of it first from a teacher that understood it. Apparently the masters of Judaism did not understand it so Christ began to teach it.
    Thank you. We're very much agreed on this. What I have been exploring, however, is on how to explain what it should've been explained to be? In other words, what specifically was it, regarding the "New Birth," that Nicodemus failed to grasp?

    I suspect that Jesus equated the Christian concept of "spiritual life" with the OT concept of *obedience to the Law.* As life was promised to the obedient, so spiritual life is something that follows lack of knowledge or lack of obedience. It is, in effect, *new life,* aka the New Birth.

    The reason the metaphor of a New Birth is used is, I think, because life in the Garden of Eden ended up in death. There had to be a new start. The new start began with obedience to the Law. And that new start is consummated in the New Birth in the New Testament. Spiritual life has now become "Eternal life." Let me know if you agree, or if you have a different sense of it? I'm open.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thank you. We're very much agreed on this. What I have been exploring, however, is on how to explain what it should've been explained to be? In other words, what specifically was it, regarding the "New Birth," that Nicodemus failed to grasp?

    I suspect that Jesus equated the Christian concept of "spiritual life" with the OT concept of *obedience to the Law.* As life was promised to the obedient, so spiritual life is something that follows lack of knowledge or lack of obedience. It is, in effect, *new life,* aka the New Birth.

    The reason the metaphor of a New Birth is used is, I think, because life in the Garden of Eden ended up in death. There had to be a new start. The new start began with obedience to the Law. And that new start is consummated in the New Birth in the New Testament. Spiritual life has now become "Eternal life." Let me know if you agree, or if you have a different sense of it? I'm open.
    I don't see it related to the law but being exactly the same concept as we find in the NT except without the name of Christ attached. Faith in Christ and obeying him etc is being born again so in the OT it was faith in God and obeying him etc is being born again in the OT. There is law to adhere to in both covenants, they differ a lot but it isn't just adhering to the law of Christ that causes one to be born again...it's much more than that so I think the same about being born again in the OT.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When did the Comforter come?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    I don't see it related to the law but being exactly the same concept as we find in the NT except without the name of Christ attached. Faith in Christ and obeying him etc is being born again so in the OT it was faith in God and obeying him etc is being born again in the OT. There is law to adhere to in both covenants, they differ a lot but it isn't just adhering to the law of Christ that causes one to be born again...it's much more than that so I think the same about being born again in the OT.
    I do understand how the Law can be adhered to in a perfunctory, hollow way. And I realize that this was how the Law was practiced in Jesus' day. But I don't believe God ever intended the Law to be followed that way. In other, less irreligious times, I think some people did follow the Law sincerely, such as the Psalmists themselves!

    I was looking into this now, and saw how the word for "again," in "born again," can also be translated, "born from above," or even "born anew." I think it refers to the return to the pristine environment of the Garden by an act of heaven. It is as though Nicodemus is asking, "How can we sinners be born as though we were sinless and innocent, as in the Garden of Eden?"

    But I realize that Nicodemus was sort of being a smarta**, calling attention to Jesus' absurdity that one should be born from the womb a 2nd time. I think actually Nicodemus should've recognized that Jesus was speaking in spiritual terms, marking something spiritual through an otherwise physical example. The concept of redemption and purification should've been clear to him through his knowledge of the Law. Nicodemus should've realized that a new birth from God in heaven was possible, ie a "heavenly birth."

    But thanks for your answer...

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