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Thread: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

  1. #136

    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post

    The one that is taken and the other left only fits a Rapture.
    Ill agree. Its speaking of what happens at the 1Cor.15 event. But look where they are going after we meet the Lord in the air.

    MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.

    So where shall they be taken to? The rapturist say they will be taken to heaven.

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    Seems were goin to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.

  2. #137
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Ill agree. Its speaking of what happens at the 1Cor.15 event. But look where they are going after we meet the Lord in the air.

    MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.

    So where shall they be taken to? The rapturist say they will be taken to heaven.

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    Seems were goin to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.
    You're comparing two different prophecies that do not necessarily relate. That results in a conflation of ideas that do not belong together. Jesus did not say one will be taken to God's Holy Mountain. On the contrary, Jesus was saying that those who remain in Jerusalem, resisting the Romans, will be taken away, and will be the "corpse." Many Jews were killed in Jerusalem--not taken to Jerusalem. Many were taken away into exile, not taken away to God's Holy Mountain.

  3. #138
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It is according to scripture.
    I know. None of the OD is related to the fall of the temple.
    That's ridiculous. That's like saying the Opening Post of a thread is not relevant in the rest of the thread, in any of the following posts. Absurd. Nothing is more clear than the Olivet Discourse was 1st and primarily about when the temple would be destroyed, stone by stone! And I've already provided the relevant Scriptures, proving that this is precisely what Jesus had in mind, and the generation that Jesus had in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    yes he is:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    This is cut out of the larger context, which is all about the time that the temple will be destroyed. Reference to the 2nd Coming is also made, but does not obscure the main idea that the temple would be destroyed *in this generation.* The things that herald the time that the temple would fall are things like wars, rumors of wars, false christs, false prophets, lost love, Christian persecution, earthquakes, famines, etc. These things all happened in the 1st generation of the Church, which at that time was strictly Jewish. And they heralded the fall of the temple, and *not* the 2nd Coming. The 2nd Coming is given no date. The fall of Jerusalem is given "this generation" as a time frame. But the means of preparing for judgment is the same in both instances, and that is why they are compared. One prepares by embracing Jesus, for he is the sign of the 2nd Coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq
    The temple falling isn't part of the OD. All of the OD speaks of the future great trib against Christians and ending with the return of Christ. It isn't a surprise we also see the trib in Rev and it ends with the return of Christ.

    Your issue is trying to force Ad 70 into the OD. You even say it's the main theme yet it isn't mentioned a single time in the discourse. In fact, the AoD stands in the temple during the GT and doesn't destroy it. Only at the end of the trib in Rev 11 does a tenth of the entire city fall from an earthquake...which leaves 90 percent standing. Another difference between the GT and what happened in Ad 70. Then After the second coming Rev 16 shows the vials of wrath and the 7th has the greatest earthquake in all of human history which divides the city in thirds...still not a total flattening of temple and city.
    Your denial that the desolation of the temple is not part of the Olivet Discourse is proven false by Luke's version in ch. 21. There, the Roman Army encircles Jerusalem, preparing to desolate the temple. Every stone of the temple will fall. That this is a regular theme can be seen elsewhere in Luke, as I've shown elsewhere.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    Your denial that the desolation of the temple is not part of the Olivet Discourse is proven false by Luke's version in ch. 21. There, the Roman Army encircles Jerusalem, preparing to desolate the temple.
    It doesn't say it's the Romans mainly because the Roman empire does not even exist when the events of the OD happen which we are still waiting for.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As He said "You will NOT see..." then that means He was telling them for the purpose of FUTURE disciples.
    They were to UNDERSTAND that He was NOT coming at that time.
    I believe you have this all twisted. Jesus was speaking to his Disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it. In Luke 21 it is defined as the encirclement of the Roman Army around Jerusalem. You make a lot of argument about whether the words Jesus used fit. They do. You just don't apply those words the way he specifically indicated they should be applied.

    The thing the Disciples would *not* see would be an immediate appearance of the Kingdom. Instead there would be Jewish judgment in their own generation, with a scattering of the Jewish People until the end of the age.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Incorrect we have MANY MANY scriptures which speak of what will happen.
    We have Revelation for starters.
    Then we have Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 as well as OT prophecies and more.
    These signs do not enable men to set a calendar date by which to make timely preparations. Instead, we are exhorted to live godly lives today and always. This alone is what constitutes proper preparation for the coming of the Kingdom. And it is the same thing that would enable Jesus' disciples to avoid judgment in 70 AD. However, in the case of the 70 AD judgment, a time element was added so that a specific judgment, designed for unbelievers, could be avoided. The 2nd Coming is something believers can also prepare for, but only if they accept Jesus now. Those who don't believe in the time of the Antichrist will not recognize what the Revelation warns about.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Luke is about the Diaspora so about the Jews, Matthew is about the Church.
    You assume there is a difference. You have no proof of that. In fact, it is contrary to common sense. All of the versions of the Olivet Discourse likely taught the exact same truths, even if words were subtracted or added. In fact, the differences help us to determine precisely what Jesus did mean. For example, the fact Luke describes the Great Tribulation as the encirclement of Jerusalem in his generation explains what Matthew and Mark meant by the AoD, the Great Tribulation, and the generation Jesus spoke of.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There is plenty of warning of judgement but will people listen.
    The warning is for *today,* or *now.* If people don't accept the Jesus we preach today, they will not recognize the signs of the book of Revelation.

  6. #141
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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As He said "You will NOT see..." then that means He was telling them for the purpose of FUTURE disciples.
    They were to UNDERSTAND that He was NOT coming at that time.
    I believe you have this all twisted. Jesus was speaking to his Disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it. In Luke 21 it is defined as the encirclement of the Roman Army around Jerusalem. You make a lot of argument about whether the words Jesus used fit. They do. You just don't apply those words he specifically indicated they should be applied.

    The thing the Disciples would *not* see would be an immediate appearance of the Kingdom. Instead there would be Jewish judgment in their own generation, with a scattering of the Jewish People until the end of the age.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Incorrect we have MANY MANY scriptures which speak of what will happen.
    We have Revelation for starters.
    Then we have Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 as well as OT prophecies and more.
    These signs do not enable men to set a calendar date by which to make timely preparations. Instead, we are exhorted to live godly lives today and always. This alone is what constitutes proper preparation for the coming of the Kingdom. And it is the same thing that would enable Jesus' disciples to avoid judgment in 70 AD. However, in the case of the 70 AD judgment, a time element was added so that a specific judgment, designed for unbelievers, could be avoided. The 2nd Coming is something believers can also prepare for, but only if they accept Jesus now. Those who don't believe in the time of the Antichrist will not recognize what the Revelation warns about.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Luke is about the Diaspora so about the Jews, Matthew is about the Church.
    You assume there is a difference. You have no proof of that. In fact, it is contrary to common sense. All of the versions of the Olivet Discourse likely taught the exact same truths, even if words were subtracted or added. In fact, the differences help us to determine precisely what Jesus did mean. For example, the fact Luke describes the Great Tribulation as the encirclement of Jerusalem in his generation explains what Matthew and Mark meant by the AoD, the Great Tribulation, and the generation Jesus spoke of.]

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    There is plenty of warning of judgement but will people listen.
    The warning to *today,* or *now.* If people don't accept the Jesus we preach today, they will not recognize the signs of the book of Revelation.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe you have this all twisted. Jesus was speaking to his Disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it. In Luke 21 it is defined as the encirclement of the Roman Army around Jerusalem. You make a lot of argument about whether the words Jesus used fit. They do. You just don't apply those words he specifically indicated they should be applied.

    The thing the Disciples would *not* see would be an immediate appearance of the Kingdom. Instead, there would be Jewish judgment in their own generation, with a scattering of the Jewish People until the end of the age.
    Jesus said, "when you shall see the AoD stand in the Holy Place...whoso reads, let him understand". But you changed it to "Jesus was speaking to his disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it".

    The problem is that you have this tendency to interpret the discourse in flowing words that do not reflect what is actually said. For example, "poised to destroy it" is not in scripture, but you presumed it anyway just to support the destruction of the temple. Also, your view of the Holy Place as Jerusalem itself is incorrect. The key is *the place*.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe you have this all twisted. Jesus was speaking to his Disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it. In Luke 21 it is defined as the encirclement of the Roman Army around Jerusalem. You make a lot of argument about whether the words Jesus used fit. They do. You just don't apply those words he specifically indicated they should be applied.

    The thing the Disciples would *not* see would be an immediate appearance of the Kingdom. Instead, there would be Jewish judgment in their own generation, with a scattering of the Jewish People until the end of the age.
    Jesus said, "when you shall see the AoD stand in the Holy Place...whoso reads, let him understand". But you changed it to "Jesus was speaking to his disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it".

    The problem is that you have this tendency to interpret the discourse in flowing words that do not reflect what is actually said. For example, "poised to destroy it" is not in scripture, but you presumed it anyway just to support the destruction of the temple. Also, your view of the Holy Place as Jerusalem itself is incorrect. The key is *the place*.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Jesus said, "when you shall see the AoD stand in the Holy Place...whoso reads, let him understand". But you changed it to "Jesus was speaking to his disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it".

    The problem is that you have this tendency to interpret the discourse in flowing words that do not reflect what is actually said. For example, "poised to destroy it" is not in scripture, but you presumed it anyway just to support the destruction of the temple. Also, your view of the Holy Place as Jerusalem itself is incorrect. The key is *the place*.



    Jesus said, "when you shall see the AoD stand in the Holy Place...whoso reads, let him understand". But you changed it to "Jesus was speaking to his disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it".

    The problem is that you have this tendency to interpret the discourse in flowing words that do not reflect what is actually said. For example, "poised to destroy it" is not in scripture, but you presumed it anyway just to support the destruction of the temple. Also, your view of the Holy Place as Jerusalem itself is incorrect. The key is *the place*.
    I don't really like these kinds of arguments. The Scriptures tell us to compare Scriptures with Scriptures, though doing it without taking things out of context. Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, referred back to Daniel *explicitly.* That means we are allowed to compare Dan 9 with the Olivet Discourse. In Dan 9 we read of the desolation of "the city and the sanctuary." These words are allowed into the text by way of explanation. These are not "flowing words," but rather, meaningful words completely allowable in this argument.

    You certainly don't have to agree with me, but my argument is built upon the context in which Jerusalem is encircled by Roman troops, with the temple about to be decimated, stone by stone. This is the context in which we can determine that the "holy place" either means the temple or the area upon which the Roman troops stood, when they encircled the city. I take the latter view. You don't have to agree.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Ill agree. Its speaking of what happens at the 1Cor.15 event. But look where they are going after we meet the Lord in the air.

    MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.

    So where shall they be taken to? The rapturist say they will be taken to heaven.

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    Seems were goin to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.
    O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL = Israel, not the Church !!

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ going to Heaven. Read Rev. 19

    Quote Originally Posted by BOWnQUIVER View Post
    Ill agree. Its speaking of what happens at the 1Cor.15 event. But look where they are going after we meet the Lord in the air.

    MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.

    So where shall they be taken to? The rapturist say they will be taken to heaven.

    ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

    Seems were goin to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. The 1000 yr period of rest.
    O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL = Israel, not the Church !!

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ going to Heaven. Read Rev. 19

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe you have this all twisted. Jesus was speaking to his Disciples specifically about something they would see standing in the Holy Place, poised to destroy it. In Luke 21 it is defined as the encirclement of the Roman Army around Jerusalem. You make a lot of argument about whether the words Jesus used fit. They do. You just don't apply those words he specifically indicated they should be applied.

    The thing the Disciples would *not* see would be an immediate appearance of the Kingdom. Instead there would be Jewish judgment in their own generation, with a scattering of the Jewish People until the end of the age.
    The problem with your claim about me getting things twisted is that you agree that Luke 17 IS part of the OD. Therefore what is stated IN THAT PART of the OD they will NOT see. Other things stated in the OD they will see or may see.

    Notice you ADD you OWN words when you say "poised to destroy it", these are additions which are NOT found in Matt 24 nor in Dan 9:27.

    Luke 21 does NOT define what is stated in Matt 24, this is YOU claiming something unsupported by the actual words used.

    These signs do not enable men to set a calendar date by which to make timely preparations. Instead, we are exhorted to live godly lives today and always. This alone is what constitutes proper preparation for the coming of the Kingdom. And it is the same thing that would enable Jesus' disciples to avoid judgment in 70 AD. However, in the case of the 70 AD judgment, a time element was added so that a specific judgment, designed for unbelievers, could be avoided. The 2nd Coming is something believers can also prepare for, but only if they accept Jesus now. Those who don't believe in the time of the Antichrist will not recognize what the Revelation warns about.
    The signs mean that WHEN we see them we will KNOW what we should do.
    It is NOT simply living godly lives.
    It is MORE, as it is about living a life LISTENING to what God says, and then acting on it.

    You assume there is a difference. You have no proof of that. In fact, it is contrary to common sense. All of the versions of the Olivet Discourse likely taught the exact same truths, even if words were subtracted or added. In fact, the differences help us to determine precisely what Jesus did mean. For example, the fact Luke describes the Great Tribulation as the encirclement of Jerusalem in his generation explains what Matthew and Mark meant by the AoD, the Great Tribulation, and the generation Jesus spoke of.]
    Not an assumption, the PROOF is stated in Luke 21 and Matt 24. Luke 21 speaks about GD on Jews (unbelieving Jews), whilst Matt 24 speaks of GT on Gentiles (specifically believers.)
    The OD does NOT have ALL of the SAME information, in all the versions, there are some things in Matthew NOT found in Luke and vice versa. Further Luke 17 adds things missing from Luke 21, which you seem to ignore.

    Not one of the gospel writers say ALL the events occur in his generation. Instead they say ALL the events occur to "this generation" which is NOT speaking of a 40 year window of time as it includes the return of Jesus, which is yet to happen.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL = Israel, not the Church !!

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ going to Heaven. Read Rev. 19



    O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL = Israel, not the Church !!

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ going to Heaven. Read Rev. 19
    Could you elaborate a little bit?

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL = Israel, not the Church !!

    The Rapture of the Bride of Christ going to Heaven. Read Rev. 19
    Sorry but Paul wrote that the living saints are raptured up to the clouds above the Earth to meet Christ during the second coming. They don't go to heaven. They follow Christ down to Earth from the clouds.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Could you elaborate a little bit?
    It's pretty basic, Israel are the Wheat that remain on earth with the Tares (Wicked) whilst the Church goes to be with the Lord in Heaven to stay in the Abode that he has built for us in the Father's house for the 7 years which correlates with the 7 days a Jewish Brides stays in the room built on to the father's house at her wedding. After the 7 days of the Feast which ends with the Wedding Supper (Armageddon) the Bridegroom was free to take the Bride to her new house.

    I think the Martyrs in Rev. 20:4 reign on Earth with Christ Jesus and the Bride of Christ goes to New Jerusalem t live, thus when it descends after the 1000 year reign it is CALLED WHAT ? The Bride of Christ !! We are in New Jerusalem. I think the Saints of old are too, because it has 24 gates. The 12 Tribes and the 12 Disciples.

    As per the above, I was just answering his point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Could you elaborate a little bit?
    It's pretty basic, Israel are the Wheat that remain on earth with the Tares (Wicked) whilst the Church goes to be with the Lord in Heaven to stay in the Abode that he has built for us in the Father's house for the 7 years which correlates with the 7 days a Jewish Brides stays in the room built on to the father's house at her wedding. After the 7 days of the Feast which ends with the Wedding Supper (Armageddon) the Bridegroom was free to take the Bride to her new house.

    I think the Martyrs in Rev. 20:4 reign on Earth with Christ Jesus and the Bride of Christ goes to New Jerusalem t live, thus when it descends after the 1000 year reign it is CALLED WHAT ? The Bride of Christ !! We are in New Jerusalem. I think the Saints of old are too, because it has 24 gates. The 12 Tribes and the 12 Disciples.

    As per the above, I was just answering his point.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    In Revelation 2 and 3 the church and the churches are mentioned several times. After Rev 3, the word church is not seen again. Only-- "come up hither" ..Rev 4:1
    That is the rapture.

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    Re: Pre-Trib Raptured Where???

    Quote Originally Posted by tfcrew View Post
    In Revelation 2 and 3 the church and the churches are mentioned several times. After Rev 3, the word church is not seen again. Only-- "come up hither" ..Rev 4:1
    That is the rapture.
    Its mentioned here

    Revelation 22:16
    16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

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